Can DVC do this..?

[Madame]

I posted this on another thread, but want some more feedback.

I don't care about discounted tix, merchandise, dining. I am concerned with our ability to trade out to different resorts. I have no problem staying at SSR 100% of the time, but couldn't imagine only being able to use Aulani resale pts at Aulani for example. So...
----
On another board there is some question as to whether or not DVC could (& I'm paraphrasing here) create a new exchange organization that handles non-home resort bookings.

Then all the condo associations would vote to remove themselves from the current exchange program, effectively disolving it due to lack of members.

Then DVD offers free membership to direct buyers only in the new exchange organization - so not a deeded membership, but a 'perk'.

S/he mentioned that this had happened in another TS - Bluegreen or something.

Can anyone weigh in on this. At this point this sounds like something DVC would do. I want to know if they could do it...

ETA. I would have asked there but I've never posted there before.
----
I'm serious in my concerns here. I feel that if Disney/DVC can do something to further line their pockets with direct buyers' money, that it is only a matter of time.

 

[erionm]

...

 

[bwvBound]

Relating personal experience from one of my other timeshares, Worldmark (WM), which did something similar to your outlined shift.

Background: WM is a pure-points (credits) program w/out home resort that began sales in/about 1990. I believe it started with just a few weeks at a single property and now has 70+ resorts, multiple affiliate exchange programs, etc.

List of significant changes (simply based on my memory):

• 1992: Change in Housekeeping policy results in a new class of member: Those that pay housekeeping (via "tokens" included in their annual allocation of points and/or cash) and those that don't (grandfathered from before the change). The grandfathered "non-Housekeeping status" can transfer with resale, similar to DVC's subsidized dues contracts.
• sometime before 2000: WM became affiliated with RCI for exchange purposes beyond the WM network of resort properties. A new buyer through Developer Sales received their first year of RCI membership free but maintaining/renewing that membership was left to the individual.
• sometime before 2000: A split between "Premier WM Accounts" (sold directly through developer sales) and "Standard WM Accounts" (something referenced by the developer sales team as "what you might get if you purchase resale" but rarely encountered). The primary difference: Standard Accounts had access only to the Inventory of Resort Properties that existed at the time the Standard account contract was signed; Premier get all of "today's properties" and all the properties not yet conceived or built. Of course, a new buyer wanted "Premier," right? Both "Standard" and "Premier" designations transfer with resale.
• 2001'ish: WM affiliated with II. New Developer sales included the 1st year of II with the sale. All members could choose to personally maintain RCI and/or II accounts. FWIW, I've kept both ever since II was introduced.
• 2002'ish: New "Sister" club launched in South Pacific with properties in AU, NZ. Current WM Premier owners had reciprocal exchange privileges for reservations booked on Credits. The reciprocal exchange excluded Bonus Time (access to "last minute inventory" booked on discounted cash rates). The reciprocal exchange privilege would later be called "The Exchange Network" (TEN) and held as a "grandfathered feature" that did not transfer in resales.
• 2004'ish?? WM allowed members to join RCI Points at their option. I tried it, read the paperwork and cancelled it. The option to join as an individual was removed in 2006 with the introduction of TravelShare (see below).
• 2006: The creation of Travelshare (TS). TS is a new, developer benefit program that was offered only to new developer sales. TS was not offered retroactive to all existing members -- unless they wished to purchase a minimal, qualifying block of new TS credits. TS does not transfer in resales and its dues are paid as a separate fee above the standard WM annual maintenance fees. TS benefits increased based on the number of TS-qualified credits purchased from the developer. TS offered its members:
  • "Free" membership in RCI Weeks and RCI Points. ("Free" means the membership is rolled into the new TS dues structure.)
  • New cash-rental program called "Fun Time." This was similar to the existing WM Bonus Time but opened the reservation window from 14-days (WM) to 21-days or more depending on the size of your TS membership. This feature was later challenged and discontinued for new buyers. Those who already had TS Fun Time will keep TS Fun Time.
  • New check-in lanes at each resort based on the various TS Tiers. This rest of us all get to check-in using the "stand by" line to use Disney Park lingo.
  • Free internet. (The rest of us pay a fee.)
  • Free movie rentals. (Most of the rest of us pay a fee or go w/out.)
  • Access to TEN for exchange across the AU/NZ properties and other potential affiliate relationships.
  • Access to special cruise, hotel, rentals homes, etc. (Exclusive feature for TS owners.)
  • Invitation to existing WM owners: Upgrade your WM account to TS! If an existing WM owner bought the minimum 5k TS package it allowed all their former credits to become qualified TS credits.
  • Free Housekeeping if you own 60k-qualifying TS credits. Oh, this restored the "non-housekeeping" memberships of the early 90's!

FWIW, I have an uber-grandfathered WM account going back a very long way: Non-Housekeeping, Premier (I can book any/all club resorts), TEN (I can book across AU/NZ and other affiliate properties), Gold (not mentioned above -- I don't know when it started -- but I get a special phone line to reservations and 1 free movie rental per check-in), ... but NOT TravelShare. If I sell this account, it will absolutely lose TEN and possibly the Non-Housekeeping (if the buyer is either sloppy or naive in the closing process/paperwork). I'm still invited to certain member events, the club magazine, access to online reservations, certain special offers/discounts, etc. I'm happy where I'm at.

So, yes -- there is precedence in the industry to create a new Developer-maintained Benefit program. I would hope Disney, like WM, grandfathers all current owners with exactly what they had before the new program launches.

 

[supersnoop]

I posted this on another thread, but want some more feedback.

I don't care about discounted tix, merchandise, dining. I am concerned with our ability to trade out to different resorts. I have no problem staying at SSR 100% of the time, but couldn't imagine only being able to use Aulani resale pts at Aulani for example. So...
----
On another board there is some question as to whether or not DVC could (& I'm paraphrasing here) create a new exchange organization that handles non-home resort bookings.

Then all the condo associations would vote to remove themselves from the current exchange program, effectively disolving it due to lack of members.

Then DVD offers free membership to direct buyers only in the new exchange organization - so not a deeded membership, but a 'perk'.

S/he mentioned that this had happened in another TS - Bluegreen or something.

Can anyone weigh in on this. At this point this sounds like something DVC would do. I want to know if they could do it...

ETA. I would have asked there but I've never posted there before.
----
I'm serious in my concerns here. I feel that if Disney/DVC can do something to further line their pockets with direct buyers' money, that it is only a matter of time.

http://disboards.com/threads/disney...uld-this-take-the-cake.3499289/#post-55500529

 

[Brian Noble]

S/he mentioned that this had happened in another TS - Bluegreen or something.

Probably the two best examples I can think of are Diamond and Wyndham. Diamond bought a bunch of different, smaller systems. Some of which were separate networks owned by Sunterra, others came from other places. Diamond most recently bought Club Intrawest, so they are still following this model.

If you buy directly from Diamond, you are also enrolled in THE Club. Club members get points to use at any of the resorts in the entire system. But, THE Club is not part of the deed; it's a separate legal entity that Diamond adds you to if you buy an underlying deed from them. If you later sell that deed to someone else, THE Club membership does not transfer. Instead, the new owner has rights only to what the underlying deed specifies. That's usually the ability to book in one of those smaller resort systems, but not outside of it. To get the deed back into THE Club, you need to buy more points from Diamond. More details here: http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64609

Wyndham owns several different timeshare systems: Club Wyndham, WorldMark, Shell, and Margaritaville. A few years ago, some WorldMark and Club Wyndham resorts would supply inventory to the other system in an Affiliate agreement. The inventory was modest, but was available to anyone. A year or two ago, Wyndham created a scheme called Club Pass. With this, you can directly book inventory in any resort in the "other" system, (with a small exchange fee), but you can only use Wyndham points/WorldMark credits purchased directly from the developer to do so.

Neither of these are exactly like the dissolve and re-form plan in the OP's post---instead, it created new larger systems out of smaller systems, but the smaller systems remained intact.

 

[Madame]

Relating personal experience from one of my other timeshares, Worldmark (WM), which did something similar to your outlined shift.

Background: WM is a pure-points (credits) program w/out home resort that began sales in/about 1990. I believe it started with just a few weeks at a single property and now has 70+ resorts, multiple affiliate exchange programs, etc.

List of significant changes (simply based on my memory):

• 1992: Change in Housekeeping policy results in a new class of member: Those that pay housekeeping (via "tokens" included in their annual allocation of points and/or cash) and those that don't (grandfathered from before the change). The grandfathered "non-Housekeeping status" can transfer with resale, similar to DVC's subsidized dues contracts.
• sometime before 2000: WM became affiliated with RCI for exchange purposes beyond the WM network of resort properties. A new buyer through Developer Sales received their first year of RCI membership free but maintaining/renewing that membership was left to the individual.
• sometime before 2000: A split between "Premier WM Accounts" (sold directly through developer sales) and "Standard WM Accounts" (something referenced by the developer sales team as "what you might get if you purchase resale" but rarely encountered). The primary difference: Standard Accounts had access only to the Inventory of Resort Properties that existed at the time the Standard account contract was signed; Premier get all of "today's properties" and all the properties not yet conceived or built. Of course, a new buyer wanted "Premier," right? Both "Standard" and "Premier" designations transfer with resale.
• 2001'ish: WM affiliated with II. New Developer sales included the 1st year of II with the sale. All members could choose to personally maintain RCI and/or II accounts. FWIW, I've kept both ever since II was introduced.
• 2002'ish: New "Sister" club launched in South Pacific with properties in AU, NZ. Current WM Premier owners had reciprocal exchange privileges for reservations booked on Credits. The reciprocal exchange excluded Bonus Time (access to "last minute inventory" booked on discounted cash rates). The reciprocal exchange privilege would later be called "The Exchange Network" (TEN) and held as a "grandfathered feature" that did not transfer in resales.
• 2004'ish?? WM allowed members to join RCI Points at their option. I tried it, read the paperwork and cancelled it. The option to join as an individual was removed in 2006 with the introduction of TravelShare (see below).
• 2006: The creation of Travelshare (TS). TS is a new, developer benefit program that was offered only to new developer sales. TS was not offered retroactive to all existing members -- unless they wished to purchase a minimal, qualifying block of new TS credits. TS does not transfer in resales and its dues are paid as a separate fee above the standard WM annual maintenance fees. TS benefits increased based on the number of TS-qualified credits purchased from the developer. TS offered its members:
  • "Free" membership in RCI Weeks and RCI Points. ("Free" means the membership is rolled into the new TS dues structure.)
  • New cash-rental program called "Fun Time." This was similar to the existing WM Bonus Time but opened the reservation window from 14-days (WM) to 21-days or more depending on the size of your TS membership. This feature was later challenged and discontinued for new buyers. Those who already had TS Fun Time will keep TS Fun Time.
  • New check-in lanes at each resort based on the various TS Tiers. This rest of us all get to check-in using the "stand by" line to use Disney Park lingo.
  • Free internet. (The rest of us pay a fee.)
  • Free movie rentals. (Most of the rest of us pay a fee or go w/out.)
  • Access to TEN for exchange across the AU/NZ properties and other potential affiliate relationships.
  • Access to special cruise, hotel, rentals homes, etc. (Exclusive feature for TS owners.)
  • Invitation to existing WM owners: Upgrade your WM account to TS! If an existing WM owner bought the minimum 5k TS package it allowed all their former credits to become qualified TS credits.
  • Free Housekeeping if you own 60k-qualifying TS credits. Oh, this restored the "non-housekeeping" memberships of the early 90's!

FWIW, I have an uber-grandfathered WM account going back a very long way: Non-Housekeeping, Premier (I can book any/all club resorts), TEN (I can book across AU/NZ and other affiliate properties), Gold (not mentioned above -- I don't know when it started -- but I get a special phone line to reservations and 1 free movie rental per check-in), ... but NOT TravelShare. If I sell this account, it will absolutely lose TEN and possibly the Non-Housekeeping (if the buyer is either sloppy or naive in the closing process/paperwork). I'm still invited to certain member events, the club magazine, access to online reservations, certain special offers/discounts, etc. I'm happy where I'm at.

So, yes -- there is precedence in the industry to create a new Developer-maintained Benefit program. I would hope Disney, like WM, grandfathers all current owners with exactly what they had before the new program launches.

Thank-you for taking the time to lay that all out for me. I feel a lot of the recent upset for me personally is that it caught me unawares. I'm not affected personally except in the implications for resale value, but I'd like to be prepared for any & all eventualities.

 

[gonzalj1]

The ability to book at non-home DVC resorts is not guaranteed in your contract. The only thing you are guaranteed is the ability to reserve a room at your home resort at 11 months out if there is availability.

DVD has the right to change the home resort booking advantage as well. Right now you have 4 months advantage at your home resort. DVD can make that 1 month, 0 months or 10 months. Their discretion.

Its all in the paperwork you received when you purchased.

 

[bwvBound]

Wyndham owns several different timeshare systems: Club Wyndham, WorldMark, Shell, and Margaritaville. A few years ago, some WorldMark and Club Wyndham resorts would supply inventory to the other system in an Affiliate agreement. The inventory was modest, but was available to anyone. A year or two ago, Wyndham created a scheme called Club Pass. With this, you can directly book inventory in any resort in the "other" system, (with a small exchange fee), but you can only use Wyndham points/WorldMark credits purchased directly from the developer to do so.

Referring to the bolded section quoted above: I can use my Worldmark pre-TravelShare credits for ClubPass. True, WM resales since 2006 are not eligible for ClubPass reservations (I think?). So it became yet another grandfathered feature.

Now don't get me started on the "Wyndham owns Worldmark" topic I'm sure we both know they only own the Developer portion with its exclusive rights to build for Worldmark the Club and the Management rights. The club inventory is a separate entity ...

 

[davper]

The ability to book at non-home DVC resorts is not guaranteed in your contract. The only thing you are guaranteed is the ability to reserve a room at your home resort at 11 months out if there is availability.

DVD has the right to change the home resort booking advantage as well. Right now you have 4 months advantage at your home resort. DVD can make that 1 month, 0 months or 10 months. Their discretion.

Its all in the paperwork you received when you purchased.

I believe the minimum is 1 month by law.

 

[Strangeite]

The ability to book at non-home DVC resorts is not guaranteed in your contract. The only thing you are guaranteed is the ability to reserve a room at your home resort at 11 months out if there is availability.

This was the primary reason why I did not purchase a HH or VB contract, even though they were significantly cheaper.

 

[CMNJ]

I believe the minimum is 1 month by law.

I don't know if that's actually law but if I recall correctly that is what is in the POS/contract.

 

[Chuck S]

Can they limit you to your home resort...probably.
Will they do so? Unlikely. The ability to book outside your home resort to another DVC resort really doesn't cost DVC Management or members anything for domestic (USA) DVC locations

I think it would be more likely (IMO) that IF DVC wanted to try out this scheme, that it would do so at a new DVC resort, either domestic or foreign, rather than making it retroactive to existing resorts, especially if these new resorts are smaller, in fabulous locations, and would have increased demand from non-home members to trade into it. Supply and demand.

 

[Strangeite]

Can they limit you to your home resort...probably.
Will they do so? Unlikely.

This is my understanding as well. However, it played a large role in my thinking when I initially purchased.

 

[gonzalj1]

I don't know if that's actually law but if I recall correctly that is what is in the POS/contract.

I'll have to review the POS. I thought I read that it could be made to have no home booking advantage.

 

[gonzalj1]

Can they limit you to your home resort...probably.
Will they do so? Unlikely. The ability to book outside your home resort to another DVC resort really doesn't cost DVC Management or members anything for domestic (USA) DVC locations

I think it would be more likely (IMO) that IF DVC wanted to try out this scheme, that it would do so at a new DVC resort, either domestic or foreign, rather than making it retroactive to existing resorts, especially if these new resorts are smaller, in fabulous locations, and would have increased demand from non-home members to trade into it. Supply and demand.

You could be right. No one truly knows what the bean counters at the Mouse are thinking. In their never ending effort to wring every last penny of profit from their customers they can do some interesting things. But, of course, that's their job.

 

[ScubaCat]

I'll have to review the POS. I thought I read that it could be made to have no home booking advantage.

It DOES say they can modify the vacation club agreement at any time, but they do specify this part pretty clearly, and there are likely legal ramifications for not providing some tangible use advantage for owners.

Quoting:

"DVCMC reserves the right in its sole, absolute and unfettered discretion to extend or decrease the Home Resort Priority Period; provided, however, in no event shall the Home Resort Priority Period be for a period of less than one (1) month prior to the period during which the other Club Members have the right to reserve that Vacation Home during that Use Day. In addition, DVCMC reserves the right to establish a continental or other preference periods in the event resorts located outside of the jurisdictional limits of the United States are associated as DVC Resorts."

 

[Brian Noble]

Now don't get me started on the "Wyndham owns Worldmark" topic

I knew when I typed that that someone would call me out on it. You WM folk are a twitchy lot.

 

[Dean]

I posted this on another thread, but want some more feedback.

I don't care about discounted tix, merchandise, dining. I am concerned with our ability to trade out to different resorts. I have no problem staying at SSR 100% of the time, but couldn't imagine only being able to use Aulani resale pts at Aulani for example. So...
----
On another board there is some question as to whether or not DVC could (& I'm paraphrasing here) create a new exchange organization that handles non-home resort bookings.

Then all the condo associations would vote to remove themselves from the current exchange program, effectively disolving it due to lack of members.

Then DVD offers free membership to direct buyers only in the new exchange organization - so not a deeded membership, but a 'perk'.

S/he mentioned that this had happened in another TS - Bluegreen or something.

Can anyone weigh in on this. At this point this sounds like something DVC would do. I want to know if they could do it...

ETA. I would have asked there but I've never posted there before.
----
I'm serious in my concerns here. I feel that if Disney/DVC can do something to further line their pockets with direct buyers' money, that it is only a matter of time.

Anything no POS/contractual can be changed. Even much in the POS can change. They could remove exchange options and likely will remove BVTC but likely not RCI or the main exchange option though they could make it 2 tier.

Thank-you for taking the time to lay that all out for me. I feel a lot of the recent upset for me personally is that it caught me unawares. I'm not affected personally except in the implications for resale value, but I'd like to be prepared for any & all eventualities.

That's a valuable lesson, one that every potential member should understand before buying.

I'll have to review the POS. I thought I read that it could be made to have no home booking advantage.

By POS it's 1 month, they only way to change it would be to have the members vote to change it as I read the POS.

 

[malba2366]

They could make changes across the board, but I think they would run afoul of the law if they try to make different rules for different people with regards to the real estate use. Now if DVC wanted to buy up a bunch of rooms at certain resorts and transfer their ownership to different entity and allow for certain members to book those rooms with different reservation windows then it would be different. I don't see them doing that as it would cost a lot of money and add a lot of complexity to the system.
I honestly don't understand why they don't give people who buy from disney a certain number of fast passes...ie. 1 fastpass for every 5 points purchased every year for 5 years. That would be a huge incentive to buy direct and not cost disney anything at all.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

They could make changes across the board, but I think they would run afoul of the law if they try to make different rules for different people with regards to the real estate use. Now if DVC wanted to buy up a bunch of rooms at certain resorts and transfer their ownership to different entity and allow for certain members to book those rooms with different reservation windows then it would be different. I don't see them doing that as it would cost a lot of money and add a lot of complexity to the system.
I honestly don't understand why they don't give people who buy from disney a certain number of fast passes...ie. 1 fastpass for every 5 points purchased every year for 5 years. That would be a huge incentive to buy direct and not cost disney anything at all.

FastPasses involve a different division, so are negotiated between divisions. They aren't actually free to DVC/DVD in the accounting.