Atheist Joins Presbyterian Church

[declansdad]

And Jesus himself taught that he is "the way, the truth, and the life."

My apologies. I misread the post I quoted. I thought that the poster's definition was saying that one must attend church to be a christian.

 

[LukenDC]

A former high school teacher of mine attended a Methodist Chruch despite her atheism because she wanted to be better able to understand Biblical symbolism in art and literature. There are also Christian Humanists---people who do not believe in God or the divinity of Jesus but base their lives on Jesus' message of peace and love.

I'm an atheist but, like my former teacher, I believe that an understanding of Christian symbolism and basic Christian theology is crucial to understanding art and literature. I also have studied classical mythology for the same reason.

 

[caitycaity]

i am an atheist and i see nothing wrong with him attending, but i do think it is weird if he formally became a member (which it sounds like he did).

however, there is a great deal of social pressure to be religious in this country, so i could definitely understand atheists joining church's "undercover" for social reasons. i understand that that is not what happened in this case, but i understand the motivation to do so.

 

[yeartolate]

What would Jesus say?

The man seems to be in line with the intent of Jesus' teachings with the exception of the absolute belief in God. I think Jesus would probably include rather than exclude this gentleman and hope his belief in the Almighty would follow.

Wouldn't Jesus preach to all that would listen? Did he ask for absolute faith in God in order to be in his presence?

 

[LisaNJ25]

I just joined a Catholic so I can get my younger 2 kids christened. I do not believe in most of it. I was christened protistant and went to a greek orthodox chuch growing up. Talk about confused lol

 

[jimmiej]

Sorry it is not for us to claim to know what is in his heart. If he wants to join then we Christians must welcome him into our church. Maybe he has doubts that he is trying to understand. He may decide to leave later or find deeper faith. It is not for us to decide or KNOW. There may be ceremonies that he does not want to partake in or is not allowed to partake in due to his present beliefs, but that is not a reason to deny him membership. If he joined as a mockery of the Christians that is not my concern. As Christians we open are hearts and arms to all, no exceptions. If your church wants to exclude him, so be it, but that is not a church I would join as a Christian.

I never said my church would exclude him. Here's what I said:

That being said, this gentleman could not be a member of my church if he didn't confess Jesus as Lord. He'd be welcome to attend, but could not "officially" become a member.

ETA: We have lots of people attend our church before they accept Jesus as Savior. Through the preaching of God's Word & the witness of believers, they either come to know Christ or stop attending.

I don't need to presume what's in his heart. He tells us. From the article:

Robert Jensen is absolutely transparent in his atheism. "I don't believe in God," he asserts. That statement is simple enough, indicating a categorical denial in any belief in God. "I don't believe Jesus Christ was the son of a God that I don't believe in, nor do I believe Jesus rose from the dead to ascend to a heaven that I don't believe exists."

John 14:5-7 Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Matthew 10
40"He who receives you (the 12 disciples) receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.

 

[jimmiej]

What would Jesus say?

The man seems to be in line with the intent of Jesus' teachings with the exception of the absolute belief in God. I think Jesus would probably include rather than exclude this gentleman and hope his belief in the Almighty would follow.

Wouldn't Jesus preach to all that would listen? Did he ask for absolute faith in God in order to be in his presence?

Romans 3
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 

[phillybeth]

Well, this might be something I have to reconsider and admit I'm wrong about. This could just never happen in the Catholic Church -- an atheist in our ranks would have no say in anything. He's be welcome to sit there, and listen, hopefully, but he'd have no power whatsoever.

One advantage I guess to the Pope, Cardinals and Bishops The Catholic Church is a monarchy, whereas it sounds like most American Protestant denominations are democracies.

 

[auntpolly]

Jimmie, I admire your faith, but not your judegement of others. I too, believe Jesus died for me. I believe very literally in the body of Christ and my mystical and spiritual connection to it.

I believe that the Bible is a living guide, and that the Word can have very personal messages and teachings for us.

I think you presume to much to say that "the body of Christ" lives only in that one man that walked on earth. That is the personification, the incarnation that we identify with, but you really can't say it's the only one.

Yes, I believe he is "the way the truth and the light". I believe we can only get to the father through "the way the truth and the light". But I am not going to judge another person's path.

I know you don't agree with this, but I have to say it anyway. I don't think Jesus intended for us to be this narrow. He speaks in such mystical, challenging way of concepts really hard for us to wrap our minds around. For instance, the advocate, the holy spirit. Do we really understand what that is? I understand what it's for and I'm so emotional thinking about it, but do can we really understand it - no. There is so much like that.

 

[RealMickeysGirl]

I agree that this guy would be more "at home" in a UU church. Even if there isn't one in his area - I haven't checked the website to see - there is something called "the church of the larger fellowship" that has publications, emails, and other things for UU's who don't live where there is a congregation.
I have been a UU for several years now and feel that I have grown spiritually from the experience.

As far as what UU's believe, this is from the website:

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

• Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
• Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
• Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
• Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
• Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
• Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another our mutual trust and support.

 

[ead79]

auntpolly, not to speak for jimmie here, but the body of Christ isn't just Christ Himself. It's the entire body of believers of whom Christ is the head, at least according to my beliefs.

 

[auntpolly]

auntpolly, not to speak for jimmie here, but the body of Christ isn't just Christ Himself. It's the entire body of believers of whom Christ is the head, at least according to my beliefs.

What did I say that leads you to believe that I meant something else?

 

[LindsayDunn228]

That would vary by denomination. I attend a Baptist church, and we do not have confirmation. To become a church member at our church you simply state your belief in salvation through Christ, are baptised, and then attend a class that explains in more detail what we believe and introduces our various church ministries. It's not as formal of a process as confirmation and there is not a specific age at which most people do it (which some Protestant denominations do have--Episcopalians for example).

I am Baptist as well. If I leave the church I am a member of and join another Baptist church, I don't have to be baptised again. Only if you are just becoming a Christian are you baptised, or if you aren't Baptist you are also baptised into the Baptist faith. (enough "baptism/Baptists" in there for you?)

 

[ead79]

Doh! (said in my best Homer Simpson voice, LOL). I re-read and now see that you thought jimmie was saying that Christ is the only "body of Christ," and that you disagreed with him. Oops!

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Our church would be somewhat in the middle on this one. We'd certainly let him come to service and try to make him feel welcome, but when we receive a new member, there's an affirmation of faith that we do. So I doubt he'd recite that if he's an athiest. But if he did and was, he wouldn't be the first Christian who's affirmation was false. But there is something else to consider. Much like customers who really want to buy a car say they aren't interested in buying in hopes the salesman won't bother him, the fact he's going to church may suggest he's not really an athiest, just claims to be so he won't be bothered. Perhaps he's claiming to go to church for political reasons when he's really pretending to be an athiest for political reasons.

 

[jimmiej]

Jimmie, I admire your faith, but not your judegement of others. I too, believe Jesus died for me. I believe very literally in the body of Christ and my mystical and spiritual connection to it.

I believe that the Bible is a living guide, and that the Word can have very personal messages and teachings for us.

I think you presume to much to say that "the body of Christ" lives only in that one man that walked on earth. That is the personification, the incarnation that we identify with, but you really can't say it's the only one.

Yes, I believe he is "the way the truth and the light". I believe we can only get to the father through "the way the truth and the light". But I am not going to judge another person's path.

I know you don't agree with this, but I have to say it anyway. I don't think Jesus intended for us to be this narrow. He speaks in such mystical, challenging way of concepts really hard for us to wrap our minds around. For instance, the advocate, the holy spirit. Do we really understand what that is? I understand what it's for and I'm so emotional thinking about it, but do can we really understand it - no. There is so much like that.

Are you saying there are other paths to God besides Jesus? Sorry to be so dense.

Matthew 7 (Jesus speaking)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[goofygirl]

FYI- regarding switching churches and baptism-

if one was to join the Episcopal Church, the EC recognizes all Christian baptisms, so you would not have to be re-baptized. Same goes for Confirmation. If you never have been baptized, you can have an adult baptism if you feel you want to be "officially" a Christian. This will make you eligible to recieve communion in the EC, though there's some priests who will give communion to anyone, but that's a whole other debate!

 

[Chipperdini]

I'm finding myself leaning more and more towards what I've read a pastor say: "I'm almost to the point of relegating the term 'Christian' into the 'Do Not Use' section of my vocabulary. It has, for all intents and purposes, lost its meaning in that it has come to mean pretty much what anyone wants it to mean."

Atheist Joins Presbyterian Church

Rather I'm curious to hear what my fellow DIS'ers think about this:

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

I think it's inexusable. I think it's preposterous, and that a church that allows non-Christian members is not a Christian church. I think the church should be reprimanded and required to revoke the man's "membership" and reaffirm its faith or be stripped of its membership within the larger body to which it is affiliated and presumably accountable. If the larger body sees no problem with it then it is in error as well, and probably in a number of ways.

Some questions I have:

Has this church baptized the man (I am unaware of any Christian church that accepts never-baptized members, and if so, this should not be and is not Christian)? If so, then the church is making a mockery of Baptism.

Has this church permitted the man to partake of Communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist? If so, then the church is making a mockery of Communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist.

 

[auntpolly]

Are you saying there are other paths to God besides Jesus? Sorry to be so dense.

Matthew 7 (Jesus speaking)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I'm saying that it is ever more complicated than either you or I can put into word -- we'd be arrogant to even try. I believe in "the way, the truth, and the light". Those are just words, but they are the best we have. I believe completely that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the light -- God's son, whatever that meant, because he wasn't his son in the traditional sense so we have to try only grasp a concept that is impossible to completely understand.

I believe there is one way, but it looks different to different people. I think God speaks to us in a language we can understand. He presents himself in a way that we can recognize.

I believe in the body of Christ, but I believe it is a much bigger body than some people think, and that other people call it other things.

When all we have is words to describe this stuff it's hard.I think that's the problem with being too literal with the Bible. God is our father -- what does that even mean? Does he look like a father? He's not a father in the usual meaning.

I believe Jesus is God's son and I don't even understand exactly what that means. But I believe that it's all much bigger than we have words to describe it and that the limits we've placed on what God is are only because of our limited understanding and imagination.

 

[jimmiej]

I'm saying that it is ever more complicated than either you or I can put into word -- we'd be arrogant to even try. I believe in "the way, the truth, and the light". Those are just words, but they are the best we have. I believe completely that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the light -- God's son, whatever that meant, because he wasn't his son in the traditional sense so we have to try only grasp a concept that is impossible to completely understand.

I believe there is one way, but it looks different to different people. I think God speaks to us in a language we can understand. He presents himself in a way that we can recognize.

I believe in the body of Christ, but I believe it is a much bigger body than some people think, and that other people call it other things.

When all we have is words to describe this stuff it's hard.I think that's the problem with being too literal with the Bible. God is our father -- what does that even mean? Does he look like a father? He's not a father in the usual meaning.

I believe Jesus is God's son and I don't even understand exactly what that means. But I believe that it's all much bigger than we have words to describe it and that the limits we've placed on what God is are only because of our limited understanding and imagination.

OK, you cleared it up some for me. I will say this in response (since we seem to agree on the basics):

I believe becoming a Christian is very easy; as easy as accepting a gift. Living the Christian life is very difficult. We have an enemy called Satan that seeks to destroy our Christian witness any way he can.

More to your point, I think we try to make things too difficult. Jesus' message is open to all who will receive it. But, the world gets in the way. God's ways are not our ways. Remember this Scripture?

Mark 4
The Parable of the Sower
1Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge. 2He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3"Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times."
9Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

13Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown."