Atheist Joins Presbyterian Church

[clarabelle]

But again - there is a big difference in attending a church and being a Member of the church in every Protestant church I've ever been acquainted with.

I do not know about the Presbyterian church -- but in our Church -- we do not have a Pope such as the Catholics who dictate "what we believe." That is done through regional and national Membership conferences by the lay people of the Church. If this man "joined" a United Methodist church, he would become a full voting member that could dictate exactly what doctrine is followed in the Church.

So is one atheist joining the Church going to be a problem? no. But if all the Churches around the nation start accepting Atheists into their membership, then you are talking enough Non-Believing members with votes that can completely alter the Dogma of the Church.

We (Presbyterians) vote for church officers (elders) they make the majority of the decisions and represent us in meetings with other churches in our districts.
As a congregation we do not vote on issues that concern theology just things like accepting the terms of a pastor or nominating a committee to pick elders. The elders make most of the decisions. I can't imagine an atheist would be elected as elder.
It is definitely something to ponder though.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

It's not our church of course--it just makes for interesting debate.

 

[auntpolly]

We (Presbyterians) vote for church officers (elders) they make the majority of the decisions and represent us in meetings with other churches in our districts.
As a congregation we do not vote on issues that concern theology just things like accepting the terms of a pastor or nominating a committee to pick elders. The elders make most of the decisions. I can't imagine an atheist would be elected as elder.
It is definitely something to ponder though.

Well, this might be something I have to reconsider and admit I'm wrong about. This could just never happen in the Catholic Church -- an atheist in our ranks would have no say in anything. He's be welcome to sit there, and listen, hopefully, but he'd have no power whatsoever.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

yes, many Protestant churches do have a Confirmation service that then signifies full Membership in the Church - usually around the Jr. High years.

Our Church has one service for adults and then another for the kids. At that time there is a Profession of Faith and a pledge to help fullfill the Mission of the Church, the Congregation agrees to accept the Members into the Church, they are given a certificate of Membership, and then we all have a picnic. Many many people will attend a Church for years without ever becoming actual members. That is perfectly fine. Really the only difference between a "member" and them is the ability to vote on Church matters.

According to the Presbyterian Church of America - this is their beliefs. It doesn't seem to me that this guy could say any of this....

WHAT WE BELIEVE
Presbyterian Church in America

We believe the Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. The Bible is the revelation of God’s truth and is infallible and authoritative in all matters of faith and practice.

We believe in the Holy Trinity. There is one God, who exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all are sinners and totally unable to save themselves from God’s displeasure, except by His mercy.

We believe that salvation is by God alone as He sovereignly chooses those He will save. We believe His choice is based on His grace, not on any human individual merit, or foreseen faith.

We believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who through His perfect life and sacrificial death atoned for the sins of all who will trust in Him, alone, for salvation.

We believe that God is gracious and faithful to His people not simply as individuals but as families in successive generations according to His Covenant promises.

We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells God’s people and gives them the strength and wisdom to trust Christ and follow Him.

We believe that Jesus will return, bodily and visibly, to judge all mankind and to receive His people to Himself.

We believe that all aspects of our lives are to be lived to the glory of God under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[auntpolly]

yes, many Protestant churches do have a Confirmation service that then signifies full Membership in the Church - usually around the Jr. High years.

I converted to Catholicism when I was 18 but used to be protestant but I just don't remember anymore -- do you have to be confirmed to be on the church's membership?

 

[ead79]

I converted to Catholicism when I was 18 but used to be protestant but I just don't remember anymore -- do you have to be confirmed to be on the church's membership?

That would vary by denomination. I attend a Baptist church, and we do not have confirmation. To become a church member at our church you simply state your belief in salvation through Christ, are baptised, and then attend a class that explains in more detail what we believe and introduces our various church ministries. It's not as formal of a process as confirmation and there is not a specific age at which most people do it (which some Protestant denominations do have--Episcopalians for example).

 

[clarabelle]

Toby's Friend
The Presbyterian Church in America and the Presbyterian Church USA are different denominations. (silly that the names are so similar)
There was a split around the civil war if I understand correctly.
Anyway
This may be over simplifying it a bit but Presbyterian Church in America is smaller and much more conservative than PCUSA.
The church in the article is PCUSA.

 

[auntpolly]

That would vary by denomination. I attend a Baptist church, and we do not have confirmation. To become a church member at our church you simply state your belief in salvation through Christ, are baptised, and then attend a class that explains in more detail what we believe and introduces our various church ministries. It's not as formal of a process as confirmation and there is not a specific age at which most people do it (which some Protestant denominations do have--Episcopalians for example).

When I move I go to the church parish and have my name put on the parish list -- as a Catholic, we don't have any big thing every time you change parishes.

So what happens if you, for example just move to a new town and want to go to a new church but the same denomination -- do you still go through the same thing every time? Or is more like an initiation, just that first time. Do you need to proclaim your faith every time you'd move to a new church, I guess I'm asking.

I guess I really don't know what I'm talking about, and can see the concern some of you have -- I apologize. If they are letting this guy be "confirmed" (in whatever sense that is) then I really do agree that this is weird, and question the logic of the church. After all, a comfirmation is just that, confirming that you believe what your community believes.

 

[pearlieq]

If this man "joined" a United Methodist church, he would become a full voting member that could dictate exactly what doctrine is followed in the Church.

That is a very good point. I hadn't thought about that.

Honestly, I'm not sure I would welcome the "joining" for that reason and simply for the fact that he'd have to stand up in front of the entire congregation and lie. When I joined the UMC, part of the process was publicly reciting the Nicene creed, affirming my belief in the triune God. I also had to pledge to support the church through my "prayers, presence, gifts, and services". How could he pledge to pray?

I certainly would welcome him. I would love to see him come every Sunday, join the choir, send his kids to Sunday school, volunteer at the shelter, and eat his fill at every single church basement potluck! I just wouldn't be comfortable with his getting up in front of the congregation and misrepresenting himself in order to formally join.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Before DH and I moved to out present home, we rented a home in another area. We attended a Catholic Church there and put money in the collection, but never joined. We figured we would join a church when we moved to our future home. By this point we had been married about 6 years and had never joined a church since our marriage, but attended them in the towns we lived in. One day we got a letter from the Priest. It said that the finance people had noticed our checks in the collection and he wanted to invite us to join. We took him up on his offer, never proving that we were worthy of membership, and became members.

So yes you could join a Catholic Church only from attending mass.

BTW DH and I are craddle Catholics who have both been confirmed and had a Catholic Mass for our wedding.

The only time we needed to prove we were confirmed was when each of us was a Confirmation sponsor for a neice/nephew. Confirmation is a requirement to be a Confirmation sponsor.

 

[auntpolly]

Before DH and I moved to out present home, we rented a home in another area. We attended a Catholic Church there and put money in the collection, but never joined. We figured we would join a church when we moved to our future home. By this point we had been married about 6 years and had never joined a church since our marriage, but attended them in the towns we lived in. One day we got a letter from the Priest. It said that the finance people had noticed our checks in the collection and he wanted to invite us to join. We took him up on his offer, never proving that we were worthy of membership, and became members.

So yes you could join a Catholic Church only from attending mass.

BTW DH and I are craddle Catholics who have both been confirmed and had a Catholic Mass for our wedding.

The only time we needed to prove we were confirmed was when each of us was a Confirmation sponsor for a neice/nephew. Confirmation is a requirement to be a Confirmation sponsor.

You're right. I think that I've just forgotten how different protestant church is. Being a member of a Catholic Church doesn't give you as much power as being a member of a Protestant church. If you want to join a Catholic church to try to change church doctrine, well, good luck with that!

 

[Free4Life11]

I am Catholic to and it is not a big deal.

Well in Protestant churches members have power to vote on things. I know in my denomination, the congregations even has the power to oust the pastor, vote on a new pastor, etc. so some of the big decisions aren't just made by the "higher ups."

I don't know much about Catholicism but I think a lot of decisions are made by the "higher ups."

 

[auntpolly]

I don't know much about Catholicism but I think a lot of decisions are made by the "higher ups."

As a matter of fact, pretty much nothing changes unless the pope says so. (and he doesn't say so very often.)

 

[curiouser]

I honestly am confused.. so what if he has a vote? He's ONE person. One. Unless he's some evil demon who can hypnotize the congregation (like Jafar!) into voting his way, is his one vote really going to topple the foundation of the entire church? I think not.

Furthermore, if he, as one person, can come in and sway the minds of the congregation then then I don't think these people had solid enough conviction their beliefs to start with. JMHO.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

As an athesist, I think he's nuts!

I'm with you...there's got to be something more productive for this guy to do with his time.

 

[tkd lisa]

So what happens if you, for example just move to a new town and want to go to a new church but the same denomination -- do you still go through the same thing every time? Or is more like an initiation, just that first time. Do you need to proclaim your faith every time you'd move to a new church, I guess I'm asking.

Answering this part of your question, again, this depends on the church and denomination in question.

I've always been a Protestant, but members of several different denominations. The more organized the denomination, the more "codified" (and usually consistent) the "rules" are.

The church I was raised in was a fairly organized denomination. To become a member, you had to state that you believed in their "statement of faith" (pretty basic, I believe Jesus Christ is the son of the Living God, etc. etc.) and be baptized by immersion (at that time or previously).

Other churches I've been members of are more loosely organized. All have a firm belief in baptism (some stronger on immersion than others). All require that the person have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (not just a belief in Him). They don't believe baptism is required for salvation (please don't hijack this thread, I'm just explaining the requirements), but that since it's an outward sign they want to see that outward sign before the actual membership. And all require a membership class before membership (varying lengths of time) to be sure you understand the principles of the church BEFORE becoming a member. If you've taken the class, state that you've accepted Christ as your personal savior, and been baptized (by immersion or not, depending on the church) you are a member.


Hope this answers your question.

 

[Free4Life11]

That is your definition of a christian. Another definition of christian is one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

And Jesus himself taught that he is "the way, the truth, and the life."

 

[auntpolly]

Hope this answers your question.

Yes, thanks!

And I apologize for how judgemental I must have sounded to you protestants -- I really had forgotten how it was.

It's no coincidence that this guy didn't try this in a Catholic church!! He wouldn't have gotten very far. (We'd all be like, hmmmm, that's interesting, do you have a check for us this week? )

 

[goofygirl]

I totally understand this man.

I was motivated by political, as well as other reasons to join the Episcopal Church. It was a reaction to what's going on in this country.

Frankly, I do not like how the Christian Right is influencing people and politics. I found a liberal parish with a liberal priest and I feel very at home. I think Mr. Jensen would be very welcomed in an Episcopal church.

Do I believe everything the Bible says? No, but I find it interesting and like to study it. Do I believe everything that's been said about Jesus? No. I do believe that Jesus connected with the poor, and those who were shunned by society, and that the powers-that-be found him a threat and killed him. I believe he rose again but not literally. I believe his ideas and teachings rose and grew after he died. As far as him coming again to judge us, I am undecided about that. Perhaps you think I recite the Nicene Creed in church with my fingers crossed, but I don't. I just have my own interpretation of it.

What I do believe in is living a good, moral life and being good to others- which is the foundation of every major religion. I also believe in a higher power, call it God, call it divine energy, whatever. Its all the same thing with different names.

Even when I had no interest in religion, I loved sitting in a church with its beautiful stained glass, I loved the music and singing, I love "bells and smells" to this day. I can see how even an athiest can enjoy church.

 

[ead79]

When I move I go to the church parish and have my name put on the parish list -- as a Catholic, we don't have any big thing every time you change parishes.

So what happens if you, for example just move to a new town and want to go to a new church but the same denomination -- do you still go through the same thing every time? Or is more like an initiation, just that first time. Do you need to proclaim your faith every time you'd move to a new church, I guess I'm asking.

I guess I really don't know what I'm talking about, and can see the concern some of you have -- I apologize. If they are letting this guy be "confirmed" (in whatever sense that is) then I really do agree that this is weird, and question the logic of the church. After all, a comfirmation is just that, confirming that you believe what your community believes.

I can only speak from my experience with my denomination about this. When we moved churches, we spoke with people at the new church. They asked us about our beliefs and we explained our belief of salvation through Christ alone. Having already been baptized, we were eligible to join based on our statement of faith and previous baptism (by immersion in the case of our denomination). The church office then contacts your old church’s office to get your “letter of membership.” This is basically just the record that shows where you are a member. So, essentially yes, you do proclaim your faith at every new church you join, but you are only baptized by immersion once.