Another current story

[JimMIA]

Thank you. I don't know how these men can possibly argue anything in terms of defending themselves if they shot at Arbery while he was trying to avoid the truck and prior to him trying to get the gun from them.

IF that's what happened, you are right. And, FWIW, I also thought I heard a shot prior to the struggle.

But they have to argue something unless they're pleading guilty. And don't forget, the defendant doesn't have to prove their innocence. The state has to prove their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

So all they really have to do is create some legitimate doubt in the minds of the jury.

 

[JimMIA]

Thanks - I'd also like to see the local police department that did the initial investigation that led to a cursory decision not to file charges investigated. This murder would have never seen the light of day if someone had not leaked the video.

Don't forget, though, that stuff like this is a two or three-step process.

The police do their investigation. If they believe there is probable cause for an arrest, they would either go ahead and arrest -- or more likely considering the emotions involved, ask the prosecutor to prepare an arrest warrant.

If the prosecutor agrees, a warrant affidavit is prepared, the police appear before a judge and the judge issues a warrant.

One prosecutor properly recused herself. The second prosecutor declined to prosecute. The third prosecutor declined to try for a warrant, saying instead that he would take the case to a grand jury.

If you listen to the Director of GBI, he doesn't sound particularly impressed either by the initial police investigation or the prosecutor's decisions. He tried to smooth it over and wouldn't comment on the investigation, but he said several times that his investigators did some things that "needed to be done," and are continuing to do other things which "need to be done."

 

[sam_gordon]

Hopefully the state can show cause not to seat.

I'm sure saying "I'm willing to listen to all sides and look at all evidence, not just what's been in the media" would be justifiable cause. SMH.

 

[JimMIA]

One thing to watch for -- and watch out for -- is the warrant affidavit itself. Depending on GA law and the process, the warrant affidavit which was presented to the judge is probably public record, and at some point will be obtained by the news media.

That affidavit will detail some of the evidence used to demonstrate probable cause for the arrests. It will not divulge everything said verbally to the judge, nor will it be more than the minimal evidence the police felt necessary to divulge. And once the affidavit hits the media, the police will probably not comment any deeper than what is written.

But don't think that's all they have. It's not.

 

[brockash]

How do you argue self defence when there are 3 men against 1?
Even if the jogger initiated an assault shooting him was way overboard considering there were 3 men ganging up on him.

And really to me it looked like he was trying to avoid the nuts bu going around the truck and then was approached by the armed nut in front of the truck.

 

[okeydokey]

One story I read stated that at he at one point turned and ran in the opposite direction to get away and the trucks also turned around to pursue him again. They were hunting that poor man. I also would have fought for my life. Now there are go fund me pages raising legal fee money for the "God fearing men" who they say are falsely accused.

 

[JimMIA]

Someone mentioned this being a hate crime. I read an article today that said Georgia actually doesn't have a hate crime law, so they won't be charged with that.

Doesn't matter. They're looking at the death penalty potentially, and definitely a LONG prison sentence if convicted. A hate crime charge would be meaningless, and might actually make conviction more difficult.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Someone mentioned this being a hate crime. I read an article today that said Georgia actually doesn't have a hate crime law, so they won't be charged with that.

Doesn't matter. They're looking at the death penalty potentially, and definitely a LONG prison sentence if convicted. A hate crime charge would be meaningless, and might actually make conviction more difficult.

Making a crime a hate crime makes it easier to get the death penalty applied in states that have it. Down right backward of GA not to have hate crimes on their books.

 

[SaintsManiac]

Judge denied bond. Good.

 

[JimMIA]

Judge denied bond. Good.

They're charged with murder. Automatic no bond in most jurisdictions, not an intellectual struggle to make that ruling.

 

[SaintsManiac]

They're charged with murder. Automatic no bond in most jurisdictions, not an intellectual struggle to make that ruling.

ok

 

[JimMIA]

Making a crime a hate crime makes it easier to get the death penalty applied in states that have it. Down right backward of GA not to have hate crimes on their books.

It depends on who you talk to. A lot of these "special" laws are incredibly popular with politicians and activists, but not so much with prosecutors and judges.

The problem with hate crimes specifically is they are a "specific intent" crime. To get a conviction, you have to prove what was on the mind of the defendant at the time of the crime.

Murder is also a "specific intent" crime, but it's fairly easy to show that a defendant meant to pull a trigger. If you walk into a store with a gun and yell, "Give me your money!" it's not a big reach to prove specific intent that you intend to rob them.

But unless there is clear evidence that this particular crime was racially-motivated, it would be very hard to prove a hate crime. The fact that the defendants are white and the victim was black doesn't prove anything in a court of law. It ain't that simple.

And THAT messes up the much more important parts of the case.

There is a huge body of law and legal precedent that tells lawyers on both sides, and judges, what aggravated assault and murder are. There are centuries of cases, and that makes proving the necessary parts of the crime (the corpus delicti) less difficult.

Additional unnecessary charges just muddy the waters, and make it easier for a good defense lawyer to create "reasonable doubt" or for a jury to make an incomprehensible leap in logic to avoid the harder choices.

 

[GreatLakes]

If someone held a gun on you and said they were doing a "citizen's arrest" for jogging in the neighborhood wouldn't you fight to save your life?

No. I'd interlace my fingers on my head, lie face down on the ground, and let them hold me there until the real police showed up.

Anyone insane enough to citizen's arrest me for jogging isn't someone I want to get into a physical altercation with.

 

[bcla]

Anyone insane enough to citizen's arrest me for jogging isn't someone I want to get into a physical altercation with.

Depends on the situation I'd think. There are quite a few people in the "I will never be a victim" camp. It's also difficult to know what someone might think when someone brandishes a firearm. If he had a carry permit and a firearm, he might have been justified in shooting someone pointing a gun at him.

This is really odd situation with civilians having firearms. They don't specifically have any more authority than anyone else on the street just because they brought guns with them.

 

[GreatLakes]

Depends on the situation I'd think. There are quite a few people in the "I will never be a victim" camp. It's also difficult to know what someone might think when someone brandishes a firearm. If he had a carry permit and a firearm, he might have been justified in shooting someone pointing a gun at him.

This is really odd situation with civilians having firearms. They don't specifically have any more authority than anyone else on the street just because they brought guns with them.

They don't have any more authority and I can't think of a scenario where this is anything less than murder, even if legally they end up successfully arguing self defense.

But, at the end of the day, I'm not going to get into a physical altercation with someone that stopped me for jogging. Them being ultimately found guilty of shooting me during our fight doesn't bring me back from the dead. I'll be on the ground waiting for the police.

FWIW I run a lot and have been confronted, though never with a gun, and I don't argue or fight. I think about what I'd do if I was ever confronted on a run buy some overzealous citizen with a gun and what I replied with is what I'd do.

 

[Notrealname]

No. I'd interlace my fingers on my head, lie face down on the ground, and let them hold me there until the real police showed up.

Anyone insane enough to citizen's arrest me for jogging isn't someone I want to get into a physical altercation with.

Anyone that crazy is dangerous enough to just shoot you in the back of the head while you’re in that position.

 

[wenrob]

No. I'd interlace my fingers on my head, lie face down on the ground, and let them hold me there until the real police showed up.

Anyone insane enough to citizen's arrest me for jogging isn't someone I want to get into a physical altercation with.

I’ve been the victim of assault (stabbed) and I didn’t do half of what I ever thought I’d do if attacked. I did fight. It was pure instinct. I don’t think I would have submitted to anyone who wasn’t clearly law enforcement. Self defense experts advise to GET AWAY, never go to another location if you can help it. It’s advice I’ve drilled into my kids heads. I have no idea what the victim might have been thinking here but my best guess is he felt his chances were better fighting for the gun rather than almost certainly getting shot running away.

 

[GreatLakes]

Anyone that crazy is dangerous enough to just shoot you in the back of the head while you’re in that position.

Maybe, maybe not. I think there are substantially fewer people willing to execute someone in the back than shoot them during a physical altercation so that's the route I'd take. I wouldn't try to run away and wouldn't go with them. I'd get on the ground and let them call the police on me.

You get to decide for yourself. If you'd rather try to get the gun away from them have at it, that isn't the direction I'd go.

 

[Notrealname]

Actually, I think the direction to go is “away.”

 

[JimMIA]

Nobody knows what they would do until it happens.