Another current story

Yeah really I am not sure why anyone thinks they had a right to give "orders." I know if I saw 2 dudes riding around my neighborhood with guns I would call the police on them. Just because someone is white, male and armed doesn't mean they have any business giving "orders."

This is it exactly! They had no right to give orders and he no reason to have to listen to them.

And the fact that people are saying he should have listened, just shows the systemic problem. Why would it be ok for two non-official white men to go around giving other people orders? And would they have done it this same way had the runner been white? I think not.
 
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This is it exactly! They had no right to give orders and he no reason to have to listen to them.
It's not a question of their rights. It's a question of whether they had legal authority under Georgia law to make a citizen's arrest.

Their defense will claim they did have sufficient probable cause that a felony had occurred, the Arbery committed it, and therefore they had legal authority to arrest him. They will try to depict Arbery's actions as resisting a lawful arrest, and claim the shooting him was self defense.

And the fact that people are saying he should have listened, just shows the systemic problem. Why would it be ok for two non-official white men to go around giving other people orders? And would they have done it this same way had the runner been white? I think not.
This is the difference between political/socioeconomic opinion, law, and legal strategy.

Philosophically and historically, you may be right...or not. With regard to these two individuals, we really don't have any indication one way or the other whether a) they are racists, and b) whether their racial feelings drove their behavior in this particular case.

But that focus on what we may think was going through the minds of the defendants is a dangerous trap that diverts attention from the facts and the law to irrelevant speculation that could doom the case.

To the LAW, their racial attitudes are irrelevant, and focusing on them is the path to a Not Guilty verdict. The LAW in this case revolves around whether their attempt to detain or arrest Arbery was lawfully justified. It doesn't matter what color anyone's skin is to the law -- they were either acting legally, or illegally.

If they were acting legally, Arbery was resisting a lawful arrest, and they will probably be found not guilty because they acted in self defense. If authorities thought they were acting legally, they wouldn't have charged them.

If they were acting illegally (which I believe they were), they should be found guilty because you can't go into a store to rob it and then claim you shot the owner in self-defense.

From a STRATEGY perspective, the prosecution needs to focus on the law, and the facts. There's a saying in law that goes like this: "If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If neither the law nor the facts are on your side, pound on the table."

The prosecutors need to pound on the law and the facts. They need to stick to the idea that the defendants had no reasonable probable cause to believe any crime had occurred...and also, the fact that no crime actually occurred. Therefore, the contact with Arbery was illegal, and they can't claim either self-defense or justifiable use of force.

There will be pressure to make the case a racial justice showcase, but that would be a huge strategic mistake, IMHO.

The way to ensure true racial justice in this case is to let the law work the way it is supposed to work -- color-blind, fact-based, and law-based. Justice -- racial or otherwise -- will only be truly done if they approach the case that way.

If the prosecutors yield to the pressure and try to make this a showcase, they open the door to all sorts of defense arguments, any one of which could well lead to a Not Guilty decision by the jury.

A racial justice crusade may make some people feel good, but the outcome is likely to be the opposite of what the family and the community deserve.
 
Just trying hard to imagine two black men chasing a white dude through the streets of Georgia, claiming they saw white dude do something suspicious, killing white dude because white dude didn't want to stop for them simply because they "demanded it" and then walking free. And, nope, can't really imagine that. Can you?
 

As a retired police officer, I wish he hadn't said he was (or had been) a police officer...because he's an embarrassment to the profession.

Either that, or he's just another YouTuber eager for clicks, likes, and money who made up a story to tell.

smh...
 
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There was no way that that was a remodel and not a new build. Regardless, he went in, looked around, and left with nothing in his hands.

When I was on my run yesterday I ran in the street, saw that one of the ranch homes being built was open and no workers. I slowed to a walk, went into the house via the garage and looked around. Left the house, ran down the street, and did the same to the next open ranch. To get shot over something like that is ridiculous.

And please, the narrative, "He was running down the wrong side of the road" - I do that as well so I can see traffic instead of the quiet cars coming up behind me and startling me. I you bet that if I see a guy standing in front of me with a weapon I'm going to run to the other side of the street.

But like I said earlier, I'm a short, white female. I have no idea what it's really like to be an African American because I can't live in their shoes. But I know my students who are African American fear that this will happen to them someday and the only thing I can do is pray that it doesn't.
 
And please, the narrative, "He was running down the wrong side of the road"

I grew up in a small-ish city (70k people). I was taught that when I was riding my bike or running in the street, I should do so WITH TRAFFIC.

My wife grew up in rural up-state New York. She was taught to ride her bike or run AGAINST TRAFFIC.

I have no idea what "the wrong side of the road" is anymore.
 
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Bike with traffic. Walk/run against traffic.
That's the law in Florida. Bicycles have the same rights as motor vehicles and are supposed to be ridden in the right lane of the roadway unless there is a designated bike lane, and not on sidewalks.
 
As a retired police officer, I wish he hadn't said he was (or had been) a police officer...because he's an embarrassment to the profession.

Either that, or he's just another YouTuber eager for clicks, likes, and money who made up a story to tell.

smh...
I just want to thank you for your even handed perspective on this subject. I have learned a lot. I’m not going to bother giving this guy a “click” I will take your word for it.
I grew up in a small-ish city (70k people). I was taught that when I was riding my bike or running in the street, I should do so WITH TRAFFIC.

My wife grew up in rural up-state New York. She was taught to ride her bike or run AGAINST TRAFFIC.

I have no idea what "the wrong side of the road" is anymore.
I was taught to ride with, walk against. In the same city but different part of town everyone over here rides on the wrong side (against traffic) of the road. I’ve never been able to figure out the ‘why’ of it. In any case, I can’t imagine what difference what side of the road he was on would make when it comes to what happened.
 
In the video above, however, the three totally stupid things are:
  1. The guy claims to be a police officer, but he doesn't know what constitutes either "burglary," "intent," or "crime."
  2. He has no clue what the most basic term, "probable cause" means.
  3. He makes a big deal out of the idea that the defendants were engaged in "legal carry," like it excuses the fact that everything else they were doing was totally without an legal authority. It's one thing to carry a weapon legally; it's something else again to brandish it in an attempt to compel someone to stop without any legal basis to stop them.
 
Bike with traffic. Walk/run against traffic.
This!

I spend way too many hours running and biking a week. You run against traffic so you can see. You bike with traffic because you are considered a vehicle and must follow the rules of the road in my state.
 
The real issue here is why are there laws in Georgia and other states allowing this behavior to begin with. This isn't the wild west, it's 2020. Law enforcement exists for a reason. You aren't Batman or Wyatt Earp. If you see something suspicious, call the police.
These laws shift the burden onto the police to prove what is in the mind of a killer and the victim. How is that a good thing? How are the police supposed to accomplish that effectively?

You should never be allowed to kill for any reason other than to protect life - not property. And you need to be able to prove that life was in danger to get away with an act that ends another person's life.

Yes, when you kill someone, the burden of proof should be yours. That forces people to think very carefully before pulling the trigger.
 
In the video above, however, the three totally stupid things are:
  1. The guy claims to be a police officer, but he doesn't know what constitutes either "burglary," "intent," or "crime."
  2. He has no clue what the most basic term, "probable cause" means.
  3. He makes a big deal out of the idea that the defendants were engaged in "legal carry," like it excuses the fact that everything else they were doing was totally without an legal authority. It's one thing to carry a weapon legally; it's something else again to brandish it in an attempt to compel someone to stop without any legal basis to stop them.
The video will likely get more traction because the creator is black. Racist people will say, "see this black guy says there is more to the story". They can't face the fact that racism is a huge problem.
 
The video will likely get more traction because the creator is black. Racist people will say, "see this black guy says there is more to the story". They can't face the fact that racism is a huge problem.
Right. And racism is omni-directional, so people on the other side will brand him an "Uncle Tom" because all black people are expected to agree with whichever activist happens to be speaking at the moment.

Controversy will ensue, prompting more clicks and revenue for "Tatum" and fundraising for the aggrieved activist will skyrocket. That's a lose-lose.

Meanwhile, the family is alone with their grief and searching for closure that only a Guilty verdict or their faith can give.
 
These laws shift the burden onto the police to prove what is in the mind of a killer and the victim. How is that a good thing? How are the police supposed to accomplish that effectively?
This concept is called "scienter," and is actually relatively straightforward to prove. Usually, you use either an overt act or a sequence of acts and it's not difficult to show that the defendant meant to do what they did.

For example, if you pick up a gun, load the gun, carry the gun with you, point the gun at someone, and then pull the trigger...it's obvious you meant to make the gun go "Boom." (It's not necessary to prove you meant to kill them.)

If you go into a house under construction, wander around for a while, and leave with a couple of power tools...it's obvious you intended to steal something. OTOH, if you emerge empty-handed, it is not at all obvious what your intent was.

You should never be allowed to kill for any reason other than to protect life - not property. And you need to be able to prove that life was in danger to get away with an act that ends another person's life.
You don't have to prove it definitively. You have to show that you reasonably believed that you were in danger of death or serious injury.

Yes, when you kill someone, the burden of proof should be yours. That forces people to think very carefully before pulling the trigger.
Except that would be unconstitutional in the US.

A defendant in any criminal case has zero obligation to prove anything. They are innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof is on the prosecutors. That protects citizens from being arrested for insufficient cause or no cause at all, and it's the foundation of our criminal justice system.
 
Related story:

Breonna Taylor died in her own home in Kentucky on March 13 when plain-clothed police officers attempted to enter her home and arrest her boyfriend who they thought was someone else ... who lived somewhere else entirely and had already been arrested earlier that day.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk...ter-kentucky-police-entered-her-home-n1205651
Not only can't a black man go for a jog, he can't even defend himself in his own home.
 













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