Another current story

[CdnCarrie]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ahmaud...eorgia-jogger-shooting/?intcid=CNI-00-10aaa3b
This story keeps showing up on my feed.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

It's insane that this happened in February and people are just now hearing about it.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

FYI:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258552839044911106

 

[pens4821]

It's insane that this happened in February and people are just now hearing about it.

I agree. I read about it a couple days ago. Then today I read that article, and I was shocked to see it happened in February. Such a shame.

I think they will get off. They clearly had bad intentions, but at the same time the video shows the man running towards the guy who eventually shoots him setting the guys up for their self defense plea. I am not saying the guys were right or that the guy going after guys with guns was wrong for self defense in his own right, its just my extremely extremely uneducated law guess.

 

[JimMIA]

I agree. I read about it a couple days ago. Then today I read that article, and I was shocked to see it happened in February. Such a shame.

I think they will get off. They clearly had bad intentions, but at the same time the video shows the man running towards the guy who eventually shoots him setting the guys up for their self defense plea. I am not saying the guys were right or that the guy going after guys with guns was wrong for self defense in his own right, its just my extremely extremely uneducated law guess.

There are going to be some very important technical legal issues in this case.

One is whether the men had any legal authority to try to arrest Arbery. Georgia has a "citizens arrest" law, but it has requirements that must be met for the initial contact to be legal. If the contact was not legal, they will have a very difficult time pleading self defense.

The key part of the video is not Arbery running toward the truck. He appeared to just be jogging. The key part is that he was struggling with one of the men for control of a shotgun when he was shot. That would tend to support self defense, but maybe not if the contact itself was illegal. And maybe not if the men shot at him first and he was trying to defend himself by grabbing the gun.

And there are two big things you can't tell from the video. One is that the video is only a few seconds long, so it doesn't capture the entire situation. The two men apparently chased Arbery for some distance before the confrontation on the video. I think I read somewhere they followed/chased him for two miles. So what happened during that chase?

The other key question is what the physical evidence shows. Physical evidence may support or refute the self-defense argument.

 

[JimMIA]

Here's an Associated Press story that has a little more detail, including one very important point.

It says the father and son chased Arbery because they thought he was the person recorded by a surveillance video of a burglary.

I am not familiar with Georgia's specific "citizens arrest" law, but generally you have to have personal knowledge that a felony has been committed and "probable cause" to believe the person being arrested committed the crime.

"They thought" does not begin to approach probable cause.

I think that may be the reason why the Georgia Bureau of Investigation arrested both men and charged them with murder and aggravated assault only a day after being assigned the case. GBI is a very good investigative agency, and they would not have arrested them so quickly unless they felt they had a solid case.

My bet is that GBI concluded that the confrontation itself was unlawful, and therefore anything that flowed from it was unlawful.

If they accosted Arbery at gunpoint without legal authority, that is aggravated assault...a felony. If the result of that felony is someone dying, that is murder.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/xandr/georgia-governor-calls-shooting-video-222010443.html

 

[CdnCarrie]

How do you argue self defence when there are 3 men against 1?
Even if the jogger initiated an assault shooting him was way overboard considering there were 3 men ganging up on him.

 

[JimMIA]

How do you argue self defence when there are 3 men against 1?
Even if the jogger initiated an assault shooting him was way overboard considering there were 3 men ganging up on him.

It was two men -- a father and son -- but that's irrelevant.

Why do you argue self defense? What else are you going to argue if you've just killed someone?

It's the only possible defense they could come up with.

 

[dclpluto]

It should be a hate crime.

 

[JimMIA]

It should be a hate crime.

It may very well be, and that charge may be added later in a number of ways.

However, I doubt that the penalty for a hate crime is greater than murder.

 

[CdnCarrie]

It was two men -- a father and son -- but that's irrelevant.

Why do you argue self defense? What else are you going to argue if you've just killed someone?

It's the only possible defense they could come up with.

third man was in car doing the filming. He is being arrested later tonight.

yes I was being rhetorical. The only defence they can say is self defence.

my point is if someone punched you shooting them is overboard when you have 2 men with you as backup,
It will be hard for them to prove son was that threatened he needed to shoot.

 

[cobright]

One is whether the men had any legal authority to try to arrest Arbery. Georgia has a "citizens arrest" law, but it has requirements that must be met for the initial contact to be legal.

I am not familiar with Georgia's specific "citizens arrest" law, but generally you have to have personal knowledge that a felony has been committed and "probable cause" to believe the person being arrested committed the crime.

One key part, in most jurisdictions, of claiming a citizens arrest is that if the crime does not occur in your presence, then the arrested party must be guilty in fact. Meaning if you think he did something so you detain him, and it turns out you just grabbed the wrong guy then you just committed a crime.

 

[JimMIA]

my point is if someone punched you shooting them is overboard when you have 2 men with you as backup,
It will be hard for them to prove son was that threatened he needed to shoot.

There is a part of the video that shows Arbery struggling with the son for control of the son's shotgun.

If Arbery gets control of that shotgun, it doesn't matter if they've got 50 people on their side -- it's a gunfight with one gun on each side. So that is their "self defense" claim. "I shot him because he was trying to take my gun."

However...if the whole incident was unlawful (which I suspect it was), self defense won't fly. In fact, a court may not even allow a self defense claim if the precipitating incident was illegal. You can only claim self defense if you are acting legally.

And GBI understands that perfectly well. They would not have arrested the two men if they thought the confrontation was legal.

 

[CdnCarrie]

There is a part of the video that shows Arbery struggling with the son for control of the son's shotgun.

If Arbery gets control of that shotgun, it doesn't matter if they've got 50 people on their side -- it's a gunfight with one gun on each side. So that is their "self defense" claim. "I shot him because he was trying to take my gun."

However...if the whole incident was unlawful (which I suspect it was), self defense won't fly. In fact, a court may not even allow a self defense claim if the precipitating incident was illegal. You can only claim self defense if you are acting legally.

And GBI understands that perfectly well. They would not have arrested the two men if they thought the confrontation was legal.

thanks for the clarification.

 

[texaslover]

He was chased down while jogging for exercise and executed. He fought back the best he could. If someone held a gun on you and said they were doing a "citizen's arrest" for jogging in the neighborhood wouldn't you fight to save your life? There is no way they would have thought twice about a white person exercising outside in "their" neighborhood. And people are debating about self defense. It's sickening.

 

[Suger Mag]

Whoa whoa... self defense... they CHASED HIM DOWN....what about self defense for Mr Arbery? He was not breaking the law he was jogging at 1pm on a weekend and all of a sudden he was accosted by three men in a truck with weapons. You had better believe if I was jogging and someone tried to attack me me with a gun I would fight like hell for my life.

 

[mousefan73]

CNN just showed a Police statement that in this area there were no reported burglaries in the neighborhood. Trying to find it online but I can’t.

 

[Hikergirl]

There is a part of the video that shows Arbery struggling with the son for control of the son's shotgun.

If Arbery gets control of that shotgun, it doesn't matter if they've got 50 people on their side -- it's a gunfight with one gun on each side. So that is their "self defense" claim. "I shot him because he was trying to take my gun."

However...if the whole incident was unlawful (which I suspect it was), self defense won't fly. In fact, a court may not even allow a self defense claim if the precipitating incident was illegal. You can only claim self defense if you are acting legally.

And GBI understands that perfectly well. They would not have arrested the two men if they thought the confrontation was legal.

That's a pretty poor defense. If someone has a gun and threatens you with it, and you try to get that gun away from them it is YOU practicing self defense.
If that is what happened on the video (I'm not going to watch it) Arbery was protecting himself, those men shouldn't even be allowed to enter a defense of "self defense" in that case, they gave that up when they pursued him. They were the threat. Period.

 

[sam_gordon]

all of a sudden he was accosted by three men in a truck with weapons

First, let's get the facts right. There were only two men in the truck.
Second, in my mind, the suspects should not have tried to chase the guy down, much less with guns.
Third, according to the two articles I read and one video story I saw, what was said/happened when the victim and the suspects met up is in doubt. Did the suspects say something to provoke Arbery into attacking them? Possibly. The piece of video (and it was only a second or two) I saw definitely showed Arbery and one of the suspects fighting, possibly over possession of the shotgun. But who attacked who? And yes, that matters in my mind.
Based on what I've seen so far, I don't see a murder charge sticking.

 

[fly girl]

I believe the reason we didn't hear about this sooner is because the father/son duo has ties to law enforcement and the DA. Good ole boy system protected them for far too long.

This incident is sickening. They followed this man standing on the back of a pick up truck like an animal hunt. Citizens arrest my ***. They went too far, reminds me of Trevon Martin. Overzealous racists.

They murdered an innocent man jogging. They deserve to go to prison.