Another current story

Imagine being that poor man out for a run, two vehicles with guns penned him in, one in front and one behind. How terrifying.

Also, this: Wanda Cooper, the victim's mother, said Wednesday that when she first learned of her son's death, a Glynn County detective had told her that Arbery had been involved in a burglary and was confronted by a homeowner who shot him.
 
First, let's get the facts right. There were only two men in the truck.
Second, in my mind, the suspects should not have tried to chase the guy down, much less with guns.
Third, according to the two articles I read and one video story I saw, what was said/happened when the victim and the suspects met up is in doubt. Did the suspects say something to provoke Arbery into attacking them? Possibly. The piece of video (and it was only a second or two) I saw definitely showed Arbery and one of the suspects fighting, possibly over possession of the shotgun. But who attacked who? And yes, that matters in my mind.
Based on what I've seen so far, I don't see a murder charge sticking.
I started hearing about this story in March when it was still in the office of the first prosecutor.
There are three men involved in the story since the person who recorded the video was a neighbor of the father and son. Also the video recording is much longer than th snippets you saw and should come in useful for their court day. There is talk of indicting the video maker as an accessory.
 
I'm going to respond to a number of comments, to try to explain what appears to have happened from a legal, law-enforcement perspective. And I have to start with this one.We are all at a disadvantage here because cases like this are very emotional, so we tend to respond to them emotionally. Fortunately, the law is not so emotional and there are very serious constraints on emotions in the law.

NOT ONE PERSON who has posted here is advocating in favor of the two men who killed Mr. Arbery. Nobody.

My concern in cases like this, as a retired police officer with homicide investigation experience, is that the police and prosecutors not mess up the case -- and that is easier to do than you think.

Also, when people ask, "How could they claim self-defense?" I try to explain their legal strategies. I've seen that movie before and I know how it goes.

I'm not agreeing with them. I'm just saying that is the only defense available to them.

As ordinary citizens we don't have the legal authority to drive through our town executing people. If we get into a situation where we kill someone, the only defense we can offer is self-defense. There is no other excuse for killing someone for ordinary citizens.

So understand that people here are not taking sides with the killers. We're just trying to explain some aspects of the case.
One small, but important part of that statement is correct. The father had worked as an investigator (whatever than means under GA law) for the local prosecutor up until about one year ago. Because of that employer-employee relationship, the local prosecutor was conflicted out and very properly recused herself.

The case was then assigned to a prosecutor from another jurisdiction who decided not to prosecute the father and son.

Controversy ensued of course, so a third prosecutor was asked to review the case. He also decided not to arrest the two men, but said he would take the case to a grand jury.

In a few circumstances, a grand jury indictment is required. In Florida, for example, prosecutors must get a grand jury indictment to seek the death penalty. But when a prosecutor opts to refer a case to a grand jury when it is not required, that prosecutor is just using the grand jury to cover his behind.

The reason why we didn't hear about the case in February was that the controversy did not bubble up in the new media sufficiently with all the covid-19 drama. For 3 separate prosecutors to look at a case in two months is actually pretty quick.

Subsequently, of course, the Governor of GA asked the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to review the case.

They did (undoubtedly together with top prosecutors), found sufficient probable cause, and arrested the two men for Murder and Aggravated Assault yesterday
Sam has stated the main aspects of this case very succinctly here.

The other thing for all of us to realize here is that we have less than 1% of the facts of the case that law enforcement has. We have two news stories -- large parts of which are cut and paste from each other -- and a very short video showing parts of the end of the confrontation in very poor quality.

But the police know, for example, how many shots were actually fired, by whom, and almost certainly when, and in what order. They know how many times Mr. Arbery was hit, where, and to what effect. They know, within an inch or two, how far Mr. Arbery was from the muzzle of the guns when they were fired. That information is critical, and it is that information that GBI relied heavily on in charging the two men with murder.

Poor videos, defendants' stories, eye witness testimony, news reports, etc are not compelling in a murder investigation. In fact, they are often not even admissible in court. Physical evidence matters, and GBI has that evidence.

The defendants are going to claim self defense. But for self defense, several things are required.
  • First and foremost, you must have been acting legally. If you were acting illegally, you can't claim self defense.
  • Second, you must reasonably believe that you are in danger of death or serious bodily harm. Somebody cussing you out or running away from you is not a predicate for self defense -- you have to be in physical danger.
  • And third, the amount of force you use must be reasonable. If you are legitimately in severe danger, deadly force is permissible...but that's not a given.

.
Thank you for all that information.
Your last point about reasonable force was the point I was trying to make earlier.
 
I started hearing about this story in March when it was still in the office of the first prosecutor.
There are three men involved in the story since the person who recorded the video was a neighbor of the father and son. Also the video recording is much longer than th snippets you saw and should come in useful for their court day. There is talk of indicting the video maker as an accessory.
IMO, the person who shot the video is as responsible as the other two. If this were a robbery/murder, he would be charged with murder. Well, this is worse. This is a racist hunt/murder.
 
Why would there even be a question about the 3rd man (taking the video) being an accessory?
He was there with them, he knew that something was going to happen and he had his phone at the ready.
It sounds like he was part of the plan from the beginning.

A question for those who have watched the video. The article in the OP states that Arbery was jogging and crossed the street, and then crossed again in front of the truck, then a gun shot is heard, and then the son with the gun and he were wrestling with it.
Is that true, is there a gun shot before there was even a struggle for the shotgun?
 
I started hearing about this story in March when it was still in the office of the first prosecutor.
There are three men involved in the story since the person who recorded the video was a neighbor of the father and son. Also the video recording is much longer than th snippets you saw and should come in useful for their court day. There is talk of indicting the video maker as an accessory.
As I said, I'm basing my thoughts on what *I* have seen. My mind can easily be changed with more video.
No, because you are the guy that can be told to ignore your lying eyes.
Here's what I've seen... a story from CBS news. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ahmaud-arbery-gregory-travis-mcmichael-arrested-charged-murder/. You see video from behind Ahmaud as he's jogging. There's a pickup in front of him. The video then cuts and you see Ahmaud and one of the suspects appear from in front of the truck fighting. They go out of camera view then back in. The video is frozen and you hear a gunshot. What happened during the portion of the video not shown (between Ahmaud jogging and then fighting with the son) IS relevant to what happened.

If anyone has seen other video, feel free to describe what you see.
 
If someone is threatening me with a gun, the last thing going through my mind is "oh, let me fight him for it". AND you're assuming Arbery was threatened. He might have been, but we don't know.

You don't consider someone pulling a gun out as threatening?

I've had a gun pointed at me. Sure all they wanted was money but I didn't know that in that split second moment when it was there in front of me. For all I knew they were going to shoot me right there. It was most definitely threatening.
 
I just watched the Director of GBI's press conference on YouTube and he said a couple of things that strengthened my belief that the arrests of the father and son were appropriate.

First of all, he repeatedly used the term "felony murder," so let me explain what that is. It means that the defendants were engaged in a felony, and as a result, someone died. Felony first, death resulted from the felony. The other charge is aggravated assault.

There is only one way to interpret that. The defendants were engaged in the felony of aggravated assault, and as a result Mr. Arbery died.

What that means in plain English is that GBI concluded -- and a judge agreed and issued the warrant -- that the defendants had confronted Arbery illegally and were armed with deadly weapons while doing so. If that armed confrontation was illegal, everything that flowed from it was illegal.

The other thing the GBI Director said several times is that there was "more than sufficient probable cause" for these charges. That's cop-speak for slam dunk.

But again, it will be up to a jury to decide.
 
One small, but important part of that statement is correct. The father had worked as an investigator (whatever than means under GA law) for the local prosecutor up until about one year ago. Because of that employer-employee relationship, the local prosecutor was conflicted out and very properly recused herself.
Sounds like a detective specifically working for the prosecutor's office. Around here we have investigators working for District Attorneys, and they are required to have California POST training/certification. They are considered California peace officers. I saw one once at a cafe. He had a firearm in a side holster and was wearing a uniform polo-style shirt that said "INVESTIGATOR" along with the county DA's office name.
 
If anyone has seen other video, feel free to describe what you see.
I see a black man, clearly unarmed, out for a jog. I seem him killed by a white guy who later admits was in pursuit of the unarmed black man for crimes he claims he suspected him of committing - crimes which turned out not to have occurred at all. So, that now becomes - I see him killed by a white man because he was black so must be guilty of something.

The shotgun that they were wrestling over clearly came from the white guy. How do we know? Because we can clearly see on the video that the black guy was unarmed.

That is what I see. Murder - premeditated, and clearly a hate crime.
 
Sounds like a detective specifically working for the prosecutor's office. Around here we have investigators working for District Attorneys, and they are required to have California POST training/certification. They are considered California peace officers. I saw one once at a cafe. He had a firearm in a side holster and was wearing a uniform polo-style shirt that said "INVESTIGATOR" along with the county DA's office name.
Yeah, Florida is the same but I don't know about GA. In 25 years, I never had any assistance from a state attorney's "investigator" so I have no clue what they do.
 
I just watched the Director of GBI's press conference on YouTube and he said a couple of things that strengthened my belief that the arrests of the father and son were appropriate.

First of all, he repeatedly used the term "felony murder," so let me explain what that is. It means that the defendants were engaged in a felony, and as a result, someone died. Felony first, death resulted from the felony. The other charge is aggravated assault.

There is only one way to interpret that. The defendants were engaged in the felony of aggravated assault, and as a result Mr. Arbery died.

What that means in plain English is that GBI concluded -- and a judge agreed and issued the warrant -- that the defendants had confronted Arbery illegally and were armed with deadly weapons while doing so. If that armed confrontation was illegal, everything that flowed from it was illegal.

The other thing the GBI Director said several times is that there was "more than sufficient probable cause" for these charges. That's cop-speak for slam dunk.

But again, it will be up to a jury to decide.
Thanks - I'd also like to see the local police department that did the initial investigation that led to a cursory decision not to file charges investigated. This murder would have never seen the light of day if someone had not leaked the video.
 
I just watched the Director of GBI's press conference on YouTube and he said a couple of things that strengthened my belief that the arrests of the father and son were appropriate.

First of all, he repeatedly used the term "felony murder," so let me explain what that is. It means that the defendants were engaged in a felony, and as a result, someone died. Felony first, death resulted from the felony. The other charge is aggravated assault.

There is only one way to interpret that. The defendants were engaged in the felony of aggravated assault, and as a result Mr. Arbery died.

What that means in plain English is that GBI concluded -- and a judge agreed and issued the warrant -- that the defendants had confronted Arbery illegally and were armed with deadly weapons while doing so. If that armed confrontation was illegal, everything that flowed from it was illegal.

The other thing the GBI Director said several times is that there was "more than sufficient probable cause" for these charges. That's cop-speak for slam dunk.

But again, it will be up to a jury to decide.
Thanks Jim!

I see a black man, clearly unarmed, out for a jog. I seem him killed by a white guy who later admits was in pursuit of the unarmed black man for crimes he claims he suspected him of committing - crimes which turned out not to have occurred at all. So, that now becomes - I see him killed by a white man because he was black so must be guilty of something.

The shotgun that they were wrestling over clearly came from the white guy. How do we know? Because we can clearly see on the video that the black guy was unarmed.

That is what I see. Murder - premeditated, and clearly a hate crime.
Good thing you don't put any bias in your reporting. Thanks for presenting only facts.
 
Yeah, Florida is the same but I don't know about GA. In 25 years, I never had any assistance from a state attorney's "investigator" so I have no clue what they do.

I'd think basically what any detective would do, although they report directly to the prosecutors. At least the job listings I see note that they also handle investigation of civil matters, which doesn't sound like a typical activity for most city or county law enforcement.
 
Why would there even be a question about the 3rd man (taking the video) being an accessory?
He was there with them, he knew that something was going to happen and he had his phone at the ready.
It sounds like he was part of the plan from the beginning.

A question for those who have watched the video. The article in the OP states that Arbery was jogging and crossed the street, and then crossed again in front of the truck, then a gun shot is heard, and then the son with the gun and he were wrestling with it.
Is that true, is there a gun shot before there was even a struggle for the shotgun?
I watched it several times. What I saw and heard is what you describe. I hear a shot before I see them struggling with the gun. I see Arbery trying to circumvent the truck, the son moving toward the front of the truck, hear a shot and then see them wrestling with the gun.
 
I watched it several times. What I saw and heard is what you describe. I hear a shot before I see them struggling with the gun. I see Arbery trying to circumvent the truck, the son moving toward the front of the truck, hear a shot and then see them wrestling with the gun.

Thank you. I don't know how these men can possibly argue anything in terms of defending themselves if they shot at Arbery while he was trying to avoid the truck and prior to him trying to get the gun from them.
 
















GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE


Our Dreams Unlimited Travel Agents will assist you in booking the perfect Disney getaway, all at no extra cost to you. Get the most out of your vacation by letting us assist you with dining and park reservations, provide expert advice, answer any questions, and continuously search for discounts to ensure you get the best deal possible.

CLICK HERE




facebook twitter
Top