You must be swift as the coursing river (as long as it's the Lazy River) - comments welcome

[DopeyBadger]

The longest run in the plan is 18 miles. Having run 14 miles yesterday, I feel comfortable with the idea of an 18-mile run. I feel less comfortable with getting 18 miles max to translate to 26.2 miles on race day. That is a pretty significant gap. I know Hansons, for example, maxes out at 16 miles, but that's one reason I passed on that plan.

It's always a concern when someone is considering a lesser max long run. Just keep in mind, you're not running 18 miles in peak week. You're running 18 miles plus a bunch of other runs. During race week, you're running 26.2 miles on race day and far far less the rest of the week. The taper is what helps negate the lack of distance on the long run, and because you're not so reliant on the long run during peak week itself. Cumulative fatigue. You could do 20 or 21 miles if you really felt the need, but instead of running 20-21 miles just walk it (or run it 1-2 min/mile slower than your normal LR pace).

• I'm trying to get an 18-week program to fit into 16 weeks between my HM and MW. And if I give myself a recovery week after the half, that's only 15 weeks. I think it will be okay because I'll have the base of HM training to work from, but it does mean making some modifications.

Consider cutting the back of the plan off instead of the front end of the plan. But ultimately, you'll be fine jumping in based on the previous training.

• The program gives paces in terms where I don't have a good sense of how fast I should be running. Lactate threshold, critical velocity, maximum aerobic speed, etc. These are defined in helpful ways such as "the fastest pace you can sustain for 30 minutes" (critical velocity), which seems kind of like the pace equivalent of Isla de Muerta, the island you can't find unless you already know where it is.

Does this help?

https://www.8020endurance.com/8020-zone-calculator/

• The book talks about the importance of strength training, but the plan doesn't include any strength training. Why don't training programs ever include resistance work? That means I have to fit it in somewhere myself. This is my soapbox and I will not move from it. Unless it is to one of my other soapboxes, which are manifold.

I believe McMillan plans include strength work.

 

[Cabius]

• The program gives paces in terms where I don't have a good sense of how fast I should be running. Lactate threshold, critical velocity, maximum aerobic speed, etc. These are defined in helpful ways such as "the fastest pace you can sustain for 30 minutes" (critical velocity), which seems kind of like the pace equivalent of Isla de Muerta, the island you can't find unless you already know where it is.

This is such a great observation! There are a bunch of sports labs where I live that do for-real VO2Max and Lactate tests for like $250. I've been really tempted to get one, but (a) that's quite a splurge and (b) since my conditioning is still improving pretty sharply (My Apple-estimated VO2 Max has climbed from 32 to 39 in the last 5 months!) it seems like the data would get outdated. I may seriously consider it if/when I hit a plateau though...

 

[DopeyBadger]

it seems like the data would get outdated.

This is the big issue with those tests. It's good data in that moment, but then can become quickly outdated based on your improvement rate.

 

[striker1064]

The program gives paces in terms where I don't have a good sense of how fast I should be running. Lactate threshold, critical velocity, maximum aerobic speed, etc. These are defined in helpful ways such as "the fastest pace you can sustain for 30 minutes" (critical velocity), which seems kind of like the pace equivalent of Isla de Muerta, the island you can't find unless you already know where it is.

You'll have a very good idea of pacing after your HM in 2 weeks based on your finishing time. You can then plug that time into various online calculators for some breakdowns. @DopeyBadger posted one. I like Jack Daniels because a lot of my plans revolve around his concepts. It's probably best to use the calculator that corresponds with the plan you choose.

The longest run in the plan is 18 miles. Having run 14 miles yesterday, I feel comfortable with the idea of an 18-mile run. I feel less comfortable with getting 18 miles max to translate to 26.2 miles on race day. That is a pretty significant gap.

So although I have not yet run a marathon, I can tell you after having done 7 miles on Saturday and 12 miles on Sunday, I was absolutely not starting from zero on Sunday morning. I had some accumulated fatigue on my body already from that week's training plus my run on Saturday - no matter how easy the pace was Saturday, it was hot and 7 miles is 7 miles. My 12 mile run on Sunday didn't feel like the beginning of a race; it felt more like how I felt when I cross mile marker 2 or 3 in a race and I still have most of it ahead of me.

Whatever plan you choose, trust it. They're written that way for a reason. Running a marathon takes a lot out of the body. That's why we only do it on special (race) days and we don't run 26.2 miles in a single session otherwise.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Does this help?

https://www.8020endurance.com/8020-zone-calculator/

But what are X and Y?? I was happy when I found the calculator but then disappointed because I couldn't figure out how the calculations corresponded to the paces he's actually telling you to run.

I believe McMillan plans include strength work.

That's true. And I do find his pace calculator much more helpful. But the workouts are not nearly as varied from what I can tell. I guess you have to take what you can get.

You could do 20 or 21 miles if you really felt the need, but instead of running 20-21 miles just walk it (or run it 1-2 min/mile slower than your normal LR pace).

Oh nice, I like this idea. That sounds like a good solution.

So although I have not yet run a marathon, I can tell you after having done 7 miles on Saturday and 12 miles on Sunday, I was absolutely not starting from zero on Sunday morning. I had some accumulated fatigue on my body already from that week's training plus my run on Saturday - no matter how easy the pace was Saturday, it was hot and 7 miles is 7 miles. My 12 mile run on Sunday didn't feel like the beginning of a race; it felt more like how I felt when I cross mile marker 2 or 3 in a race and I still have most of it ahead of me.

That's a good point, although this plan doesn't do as much of the back to back long runs. But by the time I get to the long long run I should be running about an hour the day before, which isn't nothing.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Based on my own data inputted to his calculator, X looks like M Tempo and Y looks like Critical Velocity.

You’ll be better off with the 18 miles listed in the plan, but I think the 20-21 miles done even slower could work if you absolutely had to.

So do the Fitz plan using the McMillan strength routine? No reason they couldn’t mesh.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I actually do fine with figuring out what to do for strength training - I've been strength training consistently a lot longer than I've been running consistently (at least as an adult). It's more fitting the routines into a running program that I have trouble with, and that's unfortunately the part that's missing here. Probably I'll try to add strength onto weekday workouts for this plan, though I do struggle with time in that regard. It might take some experimenting to figure out what works.

 

[azrivest]

I've done Fitzgerald plans in the past, based on his 80/20 running book. The calculator on his website is the best to find the pace equivalencies.

I loved the book and its theories on running like train slow to race fast, 80% easy/20% hard, etc

But his easy plans start at 6 runs a week which was too much for me. I cut back the ones like you mentioned that say "or cross-train". Problem is, those are always the easy or recovery runs. So I wasn't doing 80/20 in the end and finished my plan overtired.

So I loved his book and still come back to it, but I'll never do one of his plans again.

Just my two cents based on my own personal experience.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I've done Fitzgerald plans in the past, based on his 80/20 running book. The calculator on his website is the best to find the pace equivalencies.

I loved the book and its theories on running like train slow to race fast, 80% easy/20% hard, etc

But his easy plans start at 6 runs a week which was too much for me. I cut back the ones like you mentioned that say "or cross-train". Problem is, those are always the easy or recovery runs. So I wasn't doing 80/20 in the end and finished my plan overtired.

So I loved his book and still come back to it, but I'll never do one of his plans again.

Just my two cents based on my own personal experience.

Thanks for the perspective! I'll have to watch out for that in the first half of my training when I'm planning to run 5 days a week instead of 6, and maybe cut back on some of the harder work if I need to.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

September 5 - 11, 2022
HM training week 12 | 7 days until DC Half
In which I run 26.2 miles (but not a marathon)

• M: strength training, 106 bpm
• T: 5.84 mi, 1:00:09, 10:18 per mile, 157 bpm
• W: 7 mi, 1:06:30, 9:30 per mile, 175 bpm + karate, 132 bpm
• T: rest
• F: 5 mi, 53:10, 10:37 per mile, 152 bpm
• S: karate, 127 bpm
• S: 8.36 mi, 1:27:25, 10:27 per mile, 162 bpm

Weekly mileage: 26.2
Training time: 6:47:32

Well, it's nice that last week felt good, because this week was not so great. I felt kind of blah all week and my watch says my VO2 max has ticked down slightly (not sure how accurate it is but presumably it is at least correct relative to itself, i.e. the trends are right even if the numbers aren't). So that's fun.

Strength training went fine. My lower body routine was really half strength, half pilates. Otherwise there was nothing notable about it.

Tuesday was rainy, and I haven't run in actual rain for quite a while. I kept feeling like I was going to slip, so obviously I decided to do 6 strides during my run. I did them kind of in the middle (I think around mile 3.5-4.5) because I didn't want to do them running uphill. Then I stopped briefly to pick up coffee because they were out of my blend at the farmer's market on Sunday, so I ran the last ~half mile home in the rain carrying a bag of coffee beans. It all seemed like a good idea at the time.

During the strides I had a couple of twinges in my left leg. Based on a diagram I found on the internet, it was either my left adductor or left psoas. I figured it was just that I was having to try extra hard to keep my footing in the rain and ignored it (this is my standard response to problems).

All that was a fun prelude to my last 5-mile HM-pace run on Wednesday. Last week I said I would manage it if it killed me. Then at the start of the pace run I felt some pain in the same muscle as Tuesday and had to explain to the universe that that was just a figure of speech. Fortunately the pain went away after a few steps. I wouldn't say that it was a particularly great run, but at the same time it was probably my second-best pace run, which overall didn't make me feel super positive. Aiming for 8:40, I hit 8:35, 8:50, 8:49, 8:45, 8:43 (average 8:44). Also I paused my watch and took a break for a minute or so at the halfway point, and my HR still got up into the 190s in the last mile or so. Blah. The T+D was about 140, but I have never adjusted my paces on these runs for weather because I'm pretty sure runDisney won't buy "but it would have been faster if the weather had been nicer!" as a POT.

Between the pace run on Wednesday morning and karate on Wednesday evening, I felt like my feet were made of lead by the end of the day. (This is not quite as bad as feeling like your legs are made of lead but still not ideal.) I had planned to do my 5-mile easy run on Thursday morning, but I decided I was better off switching my run and rest day. So Friday's run wasn't too bad with an extra day to recover. I happened to run by the British embassy, which is on one of my regular routes, and people were laying flowers outside for the queen and even more people were filming/taking photos of the people with flowers.

Karate was good but unremarkable on Saturday. Since it rained all morning Sunday, I postponed my run to the afternoon. I figured it wouldn't be too bad because it was cloudy and the rain could have cooled things off. Nope. I might as well have just run in the morning because it was so humid that I got just as drenched as I would have running in the rain anyway. I didn't feel terrible but didn't feel great either. And I have concluded that I really do prefer running in the morning, weather conditions aside. The later in the day it gets, the harder it is to motivate myself to get off the couch. But I got it done. I picked up a handheld water bottle that I tried out, too, which lasted me 7 miles of my 8.35-mile run. But if I can get refills at water stations, I may carry that for the half instead of my vest.

So once again I am not feeling fantastic about the race next Sunday, but hopefully the taper will help. The weather looks okay right now - sunny but not too warm. We'll see what our local gurus, Capital Weather Gang, have to say when they put out their preliminary forecast starting tomorrow.

 

[striker1064]

So once again I am not feeling fantastic about the race next Sunday, but hopefully the taper will help.

Every time I get to a taper, I'm convinced I've got a torn meniscus. I mean obviously that twang in my knee is a broken kneecap.

You've got this! You've put in the work; rest a bit this week and crush the half.

I've sent treats via snail mail to CWG for good weather Sunday.

 

[GollyGadget]

The taper will help but it may drive you batty in the process. Trust your training. You’ve got this!

 

[avondale]

The humidity was unreal this past Sunday afternoon! Fortunately the upcoming weekend looks to be much less humid and in the morning it might almost be cool! Good luck!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Thanks, everyone! I went for a run this morning and the T+D was only 118 - wild! (Sunday's run was 150.)

I have a strategy question for the crowd: how do you plan for a race where you're not sure whether you can sustain your goal pace? It's looking like the weather will be pretty good on race day, bright and sunny but with temps in the low to mid 60s and dew points below 60. So that's a positive. But I've actually never had a time goal going into the race, and I'm not sure how to handle it.

In previous races, I would usually start out fairly slow and then speed up later if I still felt good. But if I start out too slow this time, I may not be able to make up the difference - there's only so much faster I can go. On the other hand, if I start out at my goal pace and it's not something I can keep up the whole time, I could crash and burn.

If I don't end up hitting my big, shiny goal, it will be okay. I already have a POT that puts me solidly in s3 for the marathon. I just don't want to either fall apart completely or miss it because I didn't try hard enough. So what's your racing strategy when your goal might be a stretch?

 

[striker1064]

Thanks, everyone! I went for a run this morning and the T+D was only 118 - wild! (Sunday's run was 150.)

I have a strategy question for the crowd: how do you plan for a race where you're not sure whether you can sustain your goal pace? It's looking like the weather will be pretty good on race day, bright and sunny but with temps in the low to mid 60s and dew points below 60. So that's a positive. But I've actually never had a time goal going into the race, and I'm not sure how to handle it.

In previous races, I would usually start out fairly slow and then speed up later if I still felt good. But if I start out too slow this time, I may not be able to make up the difference - there's only so much faster I can go. On the other hand, if I start out at my goal pace and it's not something I can keep up the whole time, I could crash and burn.

If I don't end up hitting my big, shiny goal, it will be okay. I already have a POT that puts me solidly in s3 for the marathon. I just don't want to either fall apart completely or miss it because I didn't try hard enough. So what's your racing strategy when your goal might be a stretch?

I'm kind of going through the same thing for Sunday. A couple questions come to mind-

Did you do any training at your goal pace? How much and how did it feel? What were your key workouts, and how did they go? Did you fade at the end, or were you able to hold on?

And maybe more important than that - how important is your time to you? You have a goal, let's say 2 hours for the sake of simplicity. Are you all-or-nothing on 2 hours? If you go out and can't hold on, would you be equally disappointed with 2:00:01 as you would with 2:20:00?

If you feel good about your key workouts and your goal is all-or-nothing, go and hold on for dear life. If you'd be way more disappointed with 2:20, start off just a little slow and speed up to goal pace at mile 3. I also think this course is a net downhill at the end, right? I am not entirely sure where we're coming out, but if so, that will help.

 

[DopeyBadger]

And maybe more important than that - how important is your time to you? You have a goal, let's say 2 hours for the sake of simplicity. Are you all-or-nothing on 2 hours? If you go out and can't hold on, would you be equally disappointed with 2:00:01 as you would with 2:20:00?

This. Let's use 1:53:45 as the M/Goofy/Dopey cutoff for gaining entry into s2. Let's assume your current PR is 2:00:00 and your current fitness says 1:56:00 is the most likely result.

Scenario 1: You go for broke and the s2 POT. You have a 10% chance of 1:53:45 and 90% chance of 2:02:00 (because of a crash and burn). You have a chance at s2, but you also run the risk of not PR'ing.

Scenario 2: You run based on your fitness and have a 40% chance of 1:55 and 60% chance of 1:56.

So as @striker1064 lays out, are you willing to risk the crash and burn for the slight chance of hitting the s2 POT? Where the downside of going for scenario 1 is that you won't even hit a new PR then. Or do you knowingly forego the POT attempt and more safely hit a new PR. All these % probabilities are theoretical and not real, but simply for the thought experiment.

Only you can answer that question based on how you'll feel about the race afterwards.

Outside of all this, if you have a specific time goal make sure to plan for the GPS being off a little. So if the goal is 1:53:45, don't use 13.11 miles for pace goals (8:41 min/mile). Instead use a distance of 13.22 to have an appropriate buffer. So you'll want to aim for 8:36 pace.

Second, find other runners who have run this race in the past on Strava with Premium membership so you can see the grade adjusted split pacing. While the goal is 8:36 pace, you shouldn't plan on trying to run 8:36 for every mile. If one mile has an 80ft climb and a different mile a -15 ft decline, you'll want to plan to approach the pacing of those miles differently. Having the Strava GAP data will help determine appropriate edits to the 8:36 goal pace. Link to prior convo on use of GAP (link). According to research the best HM pacing strategy is a very very small negative split (like 1-1.5% which is like 4-5 sec/mile slower than goal). That's well within the margin of error on our ability to pace anyways. So essentially, if you've got a goal pace, aim for the goal pace.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Did you do any training at your goal pace? How much and how did it feel? What were your key workouts, and how did they go? Did you fade at the end, or were you able to hold on?

I did a number of HM-pace runs ranging from 3 to 5 miles. One of them went great (well, two if you count today's but that was only 2 miles). Most of them were okay. A few of them were pretty crappy. That's one of the reasons I don't feel very confident about actually being able to finish at that pace.

On the upside, most of the time the weather was a lot hotter/more humid than Sunday seems like it will be, so that's good, and some of the issues I had were due to starting out too fast, which I have sort of gotten better at. A little.

Outside of all this, if you have a specific time goal make sure to plan for the GPS being off a little. So if the goal is 1:53:45, don't use 13.11 miles for pace goals (8:41 min/mile). Instead use a distance of 13.22 to have an appropriate buffer. So you'll want to aim for 8:36 pace.

Uh oh...

Although actually, I ran the same course in May and my watch read it as 13.01 miles somehow. Maybe because there are a lot of bridges and large trees to run under and they blocked the signal? Who knows. But I obviously don't know if it will be the same this time around so don't want to rely on that.

Let's use 1:53:45 as the M/Goofy/Dopey cutoff for gaining entry into s2. Let's assume your current PR is 2:00:00 and your current fitness says 1:56:00 is the most likely result.

Scenario 1: You go for broke and the s2 POT. You have a 10% chance of 1:53:45 and 90% chance of 2:02:00 (because of a crash and burn). You have a chance at s2, but you also run the risk of not PR'ing.

Scenario 2: You run based on your fitness and have a 40% chance of 1:55 and 60% chance of 1:56.

This is probably pretty close to accurate. Current PR and POT is 1:59:56, so from a POT perspective it doesn't matter if I end up at 1:54 or 2:30. Reading your comments and thinking about it, I'm kind of tempted to go for it. Knowing I could PR, which I am actually confident about, almost makes it okay if I don't. I know not everyone might look at it the same way but it makes sense in my head. There are always more opportunities to PR, but this is my only opportunity to get s2 for the 2022 marathon.

 

[DopeyBadger]

There are always more opportunities to PR, but this is my only opportunity to get s2 for the 2022 marathon.

Very true!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

September 12 - 18, 2022
HM training week 13 | 1 day until DC Half
In which I have free time?

• M: strength training, 105 bpm
• T: 3.07 mi, 31:19, 10:11 per mile, 157 bpm
• W: 2 mi pace run + 1 mi WU/CD, 36:10, 166 bpm + karate, 158 bpm
• T: 2.31 mi, 22:46, 9:49 per mile, 150 bpm + core, 102 bpm
• F: rest
• S: 2.56 mi, 24:49, 9:40 per mile, 158 bpm
• S: DC Half Marathon, 13.19 mi, 1:52:30, 8:31 per mile, 185 bpm (per Apple Watch)

Weekly mileage: 25.07
Training time: 4:42:52

Tapering is weird, y'all. Like, 2 miles and I'm done? I'm barely even warmed up yet. And I feel like I have way too much free time. Where did all this time come from?

All my runs this week felt very easy, not surprising since they were so short. Even the pace run was easy, although I still struggle a bit to keep a steady pace. But overall I did the important part at 8:38, so I'll take it. Karate involved a whole lot of kicks and my legs ended up a little sore, but Thursday's run was no problem. I added a few strides at the end of both Thursday's short run and today's shakeout, and I've been faster across the board all week. Hopefully that translates to speed for tomorrow!

Right now the weather looks not exactly ideal, sunny and 60s but getting up to 70 by 9 a.m. I love the sun - I even have a sun tattoo - but not so much when I'm running. Makes me glad I bought a pair of prescription sunglasses this summer. I've got my gels and handheld water bottle ready to go - first time carrying either of those in a race. I'm sure I'll be thinking, "what am I forgetting?" right up until the start of the race, but that's how it goes.

I'm aiming to get into MW s2 in this race, so 1:53:45 or 8:41 pace. Since I'm really pushing my actual fitness with this goal, it could be great or it could be a $*(@show. The suspense! Either way, I'll do a race recap tomorrow. Till then!

 

[GollyGadget]

Good luck tomorrow and have fun!