You must be swift as the coursing river (as long as it's the Lazy River) - comments welcome

[WillRunForPizza]

Hello! It seems like the thing to do here is to start a running journal, which is nice because most of my friends are very not into running. Yay for having people to talk to about training schedules, fueling, lost toenails, and more!

I'm Kate and I live in DC with a 7 y/o rescued Rottweiler. This year (2022) I decided to sign up for the WDW marathon, since I'll be in Orlando with my family anyway for the holidays. While I didn't expect registration to be quite so FUBAR, I was lucky enough to snag what was probably one of the last bibs. So now I'm trying to figure out exactly how I train for a marathon in eight months (plenty of time at least)!

Background
I did cross country in high school but then barely ran for years. I started to get back into it by signing up for a local half-marathon in 2017 and ran semi-regularly after that until Covid, when many people ran more but I kind of gave up on it. I finally did a virtual 5K last summer for my first run in more than a year, followed by a 10-miler in September and a half in November. Now I'm planning for at least 4 races this year and the marathon in January!

I've had some knee issues, so I've been going to physical therapy for the past month or so to strengthen my knees before I try to run 26.2 miles on them. I think it's helping? Other than running, I do strength training, HIIT/cardio, the occasional fitness dance class (sort of like Zumba), and now karate (my gym started offering classes). I was swimming a couple of times a week last year and hope to get back into it now that the weather is warmer. (The pool is indoors but even the one-block walk home is tough with wet hair and flip flops when it's cold.)

Past races (that I can find times for) - official PRs in green

• Autumn Georgetown Half Marathon, Oct. 2017 - 2:05:38 (1st HM, unofficial)

2021

• Virtual Sunset Run for Refugees (5K), June 2021 - 29:56 (1st run in > a year!)
• Cherry Blossom 10-Miler, Sept. 2021 - 1:44:06 (minimally trained)
• Rock 'n' Roll Half Marathon, Nov. 2021 - 2:05:06 (slightly better trained)
• Turkey Trot (5K), Nov. 2021 - 28:14 (started off way too fast and then got turned around so actually ran about 3.3 mi; probably shouldn't even count this one lol)

2022

• Rock 'n' Roll Half Marathon, Mar. 2022 - 2:07:06 (was in FL until a week before and did a terrible job training. I think I went for 6-7 runs total between Thanksgiving and this race...)
• National Women's Half, May 2022 - 1:59:56 [recap]
• Summer Georgetown 5K, July 2022 - 25:44 [recap]
• DC Half, Sept. 2022 - 1:52:51 [recap]
• Veteran's Day 10K, Nov. 2022 - 55:19 (catered long run) [recap]
• Turkey Trot (5K 5.9K), Nov. 2022 - 29:51 (training run) [recap]
• OUC Orlando Half Marathon, Dec. 2022 - 2:09:26 (catered long run) [recap]

2023

• WDW Marathon, Jan. 2023 - 4:37:04 [recap]
• Rock 'n' Roll Half Marathon, Mar. 2023 - 2:09:30 (catered long run) [recap]
• Cherry Blossom 5K, Apr. 2023 - 23:36 [recap]
• Cherry Blossom 10-Miler, Apr. 2023 - 1:21:56 [recap]
• Capitol Hill Classic (10K), May 2023 - 48:47 [recap]
• DC Half, Sept. 2023 - 1:45:39 [recap]
• Army Ten-Miler, Oct. 2023 - 1:42:24 (catered long run) [recap]
• Space Coast Marathon, Nov. 2023 - 3:50:43 [recap]

2024

• WDW Half Marathon 7.1-Miler, Jan. 2024 - 1:42:28 (1:01:06 moving time) [recap]
• Princess 10K, Feb. 2024 - 45:50 [recap]
• Princess Half Marathon, Feb. 2024 - 2:24:14 (2:06:18 moving time) [recap, part 2, part 3]
• Fletcher's Cove parkrun (5K), Apr. 2024 - 22:43 [recap]

Upcoming races
DC Half, Sept. 2024
Marine Corps Marathon, Oct. 2024

Unofficial other PRs
1 mile (2/16/24) - 6:28
5K (2/24/24) - 22:25
10 mile (9/17/23) - 1:19:25

2022 goals

1. Functional knees - DONE! Graduated from PT on 8/5/22
2. Finish the marathon - WDW Marathon completed 1/8/23
3. Sub-2 hour half - DONE as of 5/1/22

Training
Because of my knees, I haven't wanted to run too frequently, so I've been running a couple of times a week and doing cross-training 2-3 other days. I'm hoping that by the time marathon training time comes around, I'll be able to run more often without any issues. I'm still trying to figure out the best training strategy for me, but at least I have some time to plan. I'll update this thread as I go!

Oct. 2022 update: I used Hal Higdon's Novice 2 plan for the DC Half. It was a success for sure - I PR'd by 7 minutes and got into s2 corral A for the marathon - but it was kind of boring and I didn't particularly enjoy the HM-pace runs. Plus I wanted something with 5-6 running days with my knees all better. For the marathon I went with Matt Fitzgerald's Level 1 plan from Run Like a Pro.

Updates
Old training "plans" and part 2
2022 recap
Run Like a Pro level 1 marathon plan review
2023 goals
Bucket list races
2023 recap
2024 plans

Building a training plan
Part 1: What am I thinking??
Part 2: Sources
Part 3: Principles
Part 4: Elements of training
Part 5: Mental training
Part 6: Mile plan 1.0
Part 7: Mile plan 2.0
Part 8: Workouts
Part 9: Periodization
Part 10: Marathon plan 1.0
Part 11: Marathon plan 2.0
Part 12: Mile training reflections (and marathon plan 3.0)
Part 13: Marathon training check-in
Part 14: Recovery
Part 15: Review

Training paces and generic plans

 

[DopeyBadger]

to the Training Journal Club! Excited to follow along.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

For my last couple of runs, I have been trying to slow my pace to follow this train slow, race fast philosophy. How is it so hard to slow down though?? I did:

• 7.57mi in 1:24:38 on Sunday (avg. 11'10" per mile)
• 3.41mi in 38:01 this morning (avg. 11'09" per mile)

Even though those paces look pretty consistent, that's just the average; my actual pace was all over the place. I'd slow down and then gradually speed up until I looked at my watch and noticed, and then slow down again, etc. Theoretically my easy pace should actually be even slower (11:27-12:27 according to the Luke Humphrey pace calculator). I just couldn't figure out how to maintain that. Did anyone else have this experience when you first started trying to train at a slower pace?

Anyway, my next race is on Sunday, so this shift will probably make little to no difference to my time there. I'm just hoping it will be a little easier on my knees and help me stay injury-free. But I didn't realize it would be so difficult to run slower!

 

[Naomeri]

For my last couple of runs, I have been trying to slow my pace to follow this train slow, race fast philosophy. How is it so hard to slow down though?? I did:

• 7.57mi in 1:24:38 on Sunday (avg. 11'10" per mile)
• 3.41mi in 38:01 this morning (avg. 11'09" per mile)

Even though those paces look pretty consistent, that's just the average; my actual pace was all over the place. I'd slow down and then gradually speed up until I looked at my watch and noticed, and then slow down again, etc. Theoretically my easy pace should actually be even slower (11:27-12:27 according to the Luke Humphrey pace calculator). I just couldn't figure out how to maintain that. Did anyone else have this experience when you first started trying to train at a slower pace?

Anyway, my next race is on Sunday, so this shift will probably make little to no difference to my time there. I'm just hoping it will be a little easier on my knees and help me stay injury-free. But I didn't realize it would be so difficult to run slower!

I try not to look at my pace during runs, I get too in my head about it. Also, I tried to slow down my running pace early in my training last year and practically crippled myself for several days. My body had decided the appropriate rate to move my legs at and did not like me trying to slow that down and all my muscles cramped up during the run and afterward. So I just went with what felt good on future runs and I’ve been fine ever since.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I try not to look at my pace during runs, I get too in my head about it. Also, I tried to slow down my running pace early in my training last year and practically crippled myself for several days. My body had decided the appropriate rate to move my legs at and did not like me trying to slow that down and all my muscles cramped up during the run and afterward. So I just went with what felt good on future runs and I’ve been fine ever since.

Ha, there is zero chance of me not looking at my pace during a run. I have to stop myself from checking it constantly. Props to you for not peeking!

I didn't have any physical issues slowing down, so I'm going to keep trying it. It was just a surprising mental challenge!

 

[DopeyBadger]

For my last couple of runs, I have been trying to slow my pace to follow this train slow, race fast philosophy. How is it so hard to slow down though?? I did:

• 7.57mi in 1:24:38 on Sunday (avg. 11'10" per mile)
• 3.41mi in 38:01 this morning (avg. 11'09" per mile)

Even though those paces look pretty consistent, that's just the average; my actual pace was all over the place. I'd slow down and then gradually speed up until I looked at my watch and noticed, and then slow down again, etc. Theoretically my easy pace should actually be even slower (11:27-12:27 according to the Luke Humphrey pace calculator). I just couldn't figure out how to maintain that. Did anyone else have this experience when you first started trying to train at a slower pace?

Anyway, my next race is on Sunday, so this shift will probably make little to no difference to my time there. I'm just hoping it will be a little easier on my knees and help me stay injury-free. But I didn't realize it would be so difficult to run slower!

In my experience working with others, practically 100% of runners experience the same thing you're going through. Research shows that the body tends to gravitate to a certain pace relative to current fitness based on the amount of training one is doing (for most that hovers around Lactate Threshold to HM Tempo). But the research also shows that optimally you should try and slow down the training to make it easier on the easy days, so that the hard days can be hard. That combo is where the adaptations to improvement come from.

With that being said, it's not an easy process to go slower. For most runners, it takes about 2-3 weeks of consistent effort of trying to slow down. With practice, it'll come. It's hard to convince yourself mentally of the "train slow to race hard" mantra. I'd say over 50% of runner find the slower paces more normal after 3 weeks. There are some that take on the order of a few months. I've known at least one person that finally had it click after a year of attempting to do so. And alas, there are some where it just never clicks or ever feels comfortable enough to slow down.

So my advice, is that post HM race, try and force the issue on slowing down. Give it a month's try and see if you can get it to stick. You may find that once you can get it to stick that you may end up having less knee issues and may be able to train more comfortably long term.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

In my experience working with others, practically 100% of runners experience the same thing you're going through.

Good to know! I'm glad I'm not alone in this very counterintuitive feeling

You may find that once you can get it to stick that you may end up having less knee issues and may be able to train more comfortably long term.

That's what I'm hoping for! And my next race after this isn't until September unless I end up in some random 5Ks or something, so I'll have a chance to experiment a bit. Thanks for the advice!

 

[HangWithMerida]

Theoretically my easy pace should actually be even slower (11:27-12:27 according to the Luke Humphrey pace calculator). I just couldn't figure out how to maintain that. Did anyone else have this experience when you first started trying to train at a slower pace?

Yes, slowing down is hard. Especially to the levels that actually count as slowing down! It felt weird for me for at least several weeks. Even my gait felt weird. But after a few weeks, my gait shifted to be more comfortable and those easy paces became much easier to hit. When the weather is nice I still struggle to truly run slow but overall am running slower than I was last year. It paid off for my HM with a new PR this year and I felt much better afterwards.

With that being said, it's not an easy process to go slower. For most runners, it takes about 2-3 weeks of consistent effort of trying to slow down. With practice, it'll come. It's hard to convince yourself mentally of the "train slow to race hard" mantra.

I think this mental piece is a big reason so many people struggle with it sticking. You do the slow paces for a few weeks and start questioning whether this is actually going to help. You really have to stick with it through a training cycle to see the benefits. I also wonder if there is a benefit to combining the "train slow to race hard" with a more challenging training block. When I started training for HM distance I picked a plan that was manageable for me running at those faster paces 3-4 days a week. Those plans were built for newer runners and seem more forgiving for those not really deep into a running community who may not have anyone to tell them to slow down. If I went back and did that same plan now and ran the easy runs truly easy, I think those plans wouldn't be hard enough to really feel like training. For this last cycle, I ran a lot more mileage and moved to 5 days a week. I needed to run the recovery runs easy in order to do the workouts and have energy in the tank for the higher mileage. There is no way I could have done that plan with my old "PR the day" running strategy.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I also wonder if there is a benefit to combining the "train slow to race hard" with a more challenging training block. When I started training for HM distance I picked a plan that was manageable for me running at those faster paces 3-4 days a week. Those plans were built for newer runners and seem more forgiving for those not really deep into a running community who may not have anyone to tell them to slow down. If I went back and did that same plan now and ran the easy runs truly easy, I think those plans wouldn't be hard enough to really feel like training. For this last cycle, I ran a lot more mileage and moved to 5 days a week. I needed to run the recovery runs easy in order to do the workouts and have energy in the tank for the higher mileage. There is no way I could have done that plan with my old "PR the day" running strategy.

Somewhat related to this, but something I come across with training plans for others. In the early weeks of the training, the load tends to be lower and easier. Which means it's easier for the runner to run faster than intended. What was suppose to be easy pace could be more like long run pace, or what was M Tempo could be more like HM Tempo. It's accomplishable in the moment, but there's a potential downside.

I ascribe to the idea of training load theory. Fundamentally the idea is, to create a stimulus/adaptation you need to do more than you were recently, and not too much that you overtrain. There's a nice balance. So a well designed plan will have an increase in volume or intensity (or both) to cause this difference compared to the week's prior without overdoing it. That brings us around to what happens when runners overrun the early phase of the training. They raise up the early phase to close to the middle phases. Since there isn't enough of a difference you don't see as much stimulus/adaptation as there could have been and they don't improve as much. So it's why I always stress not to overrun the early phases of the training because you're only hurting yourself in the long term of the training cycle.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Race recap: National Women's Half Marathon
Washington, DC, May 1, 2022, 7 a.m.

The short version (tl;dr): I DID IT!!!! 1:59:56!!!!!!!

The still-pretty-short-but-slightly-more-descriptive version
That was a journey! Everything before the race (and for the first couple of miles if we're honest) was a hot mess. And I really did not think I would get sub-2 in this race. But somehow I did it! Now I am laying on the couch alternating between coffee and water, still wearing my medal because YAYYYY!

The version with more details than anyone actually wants to read
Packet pick-up
I am starting here because this was the beginning of the Hot Mess portion of the race. Although the race was in DC, where I live, we had to go to Virginia to pick up our packets. Now, if you don't live in the DC area, there is no reason for you to know this, but people who live in the District love to whine any time we have to go to Virginia. It's very, very far away. So far. I think we would generally rather get on a plane and travel several hundred miles than get on the Metro to Arlington (although technically you have to go to Virginia or Maryland to get to an airport, so the point is kind of moot). Plus, I had to take time out of my work day on Friday to pick up my bib, because the Saturday pickup location was even farther away and not Metro-accessible at all (and I don't have a car). So I was distinctly Not Happy at this point.

Race day morning
Sunday morning I experienced the joy of a 5 a.m. alarm, because the race started at 7 and I had to walk my dog first. Naturally, he decided to eat a bunch of crap off the ground, which is normal for him to attempt, to be fair, but I'm usually (a) more awake and (b) able to see, so I'm better at catching him before he gets things. He still seems okay, though, so I guess it's fine.

ANYWAY. I planned to leave at 6, which I actually did, bike partway there (and by "partway" I mean "to the nearest Starbucks because it's 6 a.m. and I need coffee"), and then walk from there while drinking said coffee. This would have worked fine except that I couldn't actually figure out where the start line was. By the time I finally arrived, it was 6:55, they were singing the National Anthem, and I was asking the volunteers if I could please still check my bag sorry I'm late I got lost even though I live here ugh. Fortunately, the volunteers were very nice and let me drop off my stuff before I rushed off to the corrals. And on the bright side, I was definitely warmed up from all the walking and searching for the race.

The race
On the downside, my late arrival put me at the very back of the start. It wasn't a huge race - maybe 1000 runners? - but the course wasn't so wide that it was easy to make my way through the crowds. Only after about mile 2 did things start to open up a bit.

I was not, at this point, thinking that I was going to do particularly well in this race given my slow start, but I was feeling pretty good and happy with my pace finally. By around mile 6, I was looking at my watch and thinking to myself, "hey, maybe I could hit sub-2 if I try really hard." So I decided to try really hard.

In retrospect, I probably would have done better if I had tried a little less hard. I was still doing great for a while. According to my watch, I ran mile 10 in 8'24" and mile 11 in 8'37". But by that point I was starting to feel really tired. I kept telling myself that my body wasn't really tired, it just felt tired, but then I responded to myself that that was the same as being tired and also ow, why are we doing this again? But somehow I actually didn't slow down that much, running mile 12 and 13 in 9'10" and 9'15" respectively.

Still, by mile 12 I did not think I was going to come in under 2 hours. All these times come with the caveat that my watch thinks I ran 13.03 miles in 2:00:01, so something's a little hinky somewhere. And seeing my watch's data and knowing how tired I felt (all in your head! (but also ow)), I was sure I was going to finish in just over 2 hours - disappointing, but it still would have been a PR so I was okay with it. Imagine how surprised I was to check the official results while I was waiting for a photo and - miracle of miracles - see my 1:59:56!!

Lessons learned

• It helps if you know where you're going at the start.
• The official time is all that matters! Your watch is probably wrong.
• Try hard, but not too hard because you will regret it in the last few miles.
• There's always hope!

That's all folks! Now I'm going to psych myself up to oozing off the couch to get some lunch for me and my dog. And maybe some more ibuprofen...

 

[DopeyBadger]

. Way to go!

 

[HangWithMerida]

Awesome job!! Those 5 secs are a huge 5 secs! Good job recovering from a less than ideal start and having a great race.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Also I think it might be time for new shoes - my toes are talking to me. (They sound like the minions from Despicable Me, if you were curious, which you probably were not.)

 

[lookingforsunshine]

Way to go! So speedy. I’ll be in DC near the end of the month!

They sound like the minions from Despicable Me

Have you been hydrating since your race? Just asking for… reasons…

 

[striker1064]

Congrats on your achievement! I just looked at the map and it looks like a pretty nice course!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

May 2-8, 2022

This week I was mainly recovering from my HM last Sunday, so taking it relatively easy.

• M-T: rest (I did bike to and from the office twice on Monday as I'm starting to go back in once a week or so. But I generally don't count travel as exercise, mostly because I don't feel like I've exercised. Plus the office is only like a mile from my house.)
• W: 30 min lap swim (finally made it back to the pool!)
• T: 3.06 mi run, 34:34, 11:18 per mile (I did not have any trouble keeping to a slower pace on this one! Clearly my legs were still tired from Sunday.)
• F: PT + 30 min strength training
• S: karate class
• S: Jigs and Swigs (which means Celtic Fit - like Zumba but Irish dance - at a brewery. I also biked to and from the brewery.)

Overall, it was a good week! I'm planning for next week to look fairly similar, just with a bit more running.

My PT says I should try running without my knee bands since my knee hasn't been hurting when I run, but I'm a little nervous about it. I think I'll probably take them with me the first few times without them, just in case.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

May 9-15, 2022
In which my knees get better and then worse, and the Mall is never not crowded

• M: rest
• T: 3.06 mi, 34:46, 11:20 per mile
• W: 20 min lower body strength
• T: 20 min upper body strength
• F: rest
• S: karate
• S: 6.57 mi, 1:09:35, 10:35 per mile

On Tuesday I ran without my knee bands and it went pretty well! Just a few twinges but very minor ones. But lest you think I am all better, let me tell you about today's run...

This morning's run started off okay but got progressively more challenging (I mean, more than running usually does). I did wear my right knee band (that's the knee that gives me the most trouble) because I was planning on a little longer run. I thought the Mall wouldn't be too crowded at 8 a.m. on a Sunday, but boy was I wrong: apparently GW was having their graduation on the Mall this morning and students and families were everywhere. Great for them, but they walked very unpredictably, and I almost ran into about three people who suddenly shifted into my path as I was trying to go around them. Lesson learned, there's never a good time to run on the Mall.

I ended up swinging back around and across Memorial Bridge, hitting a little bit of Mt Vernon Trail, and heading back over the bridge that starts right by the Kennedy Center that I never remember the name of. I was definitely feeling the humidity at that point. I was aiming for 6 miles and went 6.57, so close enough. But between the city's newly rediscovered humidity, the commencement crews, and my knees complaining on every slope, not a run I particularly want to repeat any time soon! I was especially disappointed about my knees because they had been doing so much better since I started going to physical therapy. More work to be done still, I guess

 

[WillRunForPizza]

In cross country in high school, we used to practice after school. So like 3 p.m. In Florida. In August. In retrospect I'm not entirely certain how I survived, but this might explain the fear of distances greater than 5 miles which lasted for several years after that.

 

[striker1064]

Lesson learned, there's never a good time to run on the Mall.

There's never a good time to run the Mall. We live just a few blocks away from it and I never bother anymore!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

May 16-22, 2022
In which I am totally just like Summer Glau

• M: 30 min swim (okay I was late so like 25 min)
• T: strength training
• W: 4.08 mi, 45:59, 11:15 per mile
• T: strength training
• F: yoga
• S: karate
• S: 6.00 mi, 1:07:15, 11:12 per mile

On Wednesday I ran up Mass Ave and back. The things I dislike about Mass Ave are the traffic and construction. The thing I really like about Mass Ave is that it's downhill on the way back, which makes me feel fast and powerful. If only I could just run on a decline all the time. I would feel like the most amazing runner ever. It didn't hurt that the weather was good.

(Tangentially related story time! A few years ago my family went to Peru, and my brother and I hiked up and down Mount Machu Picchu. As we got closer to the top, we saw more and more people who were slowly, painstakingly picking their way back down the mountain. Since I like going downhill much better than going uphill, this made me sad - would I miss the fun part of mountain climbing because I had to be boring and careful? Happily, I did not! I bounded back down that slope like a mountain goat. Fun > safety.)

On Thursday, I did something unfortunate to my hamstring, not during my workout but while I was stretching afterwards *rolls eyes*. Mostly I'm fine, but I did have some issues with the kicks in karate. On the bright side, I got new shoes Thursday as well.

Sunday I tried out the new shoes. I was, however, more concerned about the weather than my feet. Saturday was reeeeeaallly hot. (So hot.) (No really.) So Sunday I planned to get up super early so I could walk the dog and still run before it got too horrible outside. However, I forgot to explain this strategy to my dog, and it should not surprise anyone who has been responsible for another creature that my dog had his own ideas. Instead of getting up between 5 and 6 like he has the past few days, he decided he really needed to go outside at 2:30 a.m. So when we got back half an hour later, I set an alarm for 5:00, figuring I could still run early and nap when it got hot out. Easier said than done: I finally dragged myself out of bed at 5:30 and got out the door around 20 minutes later. But actually the weather wasn't terrible - decent cloud cover and a breeze made for a reasonably comfortable if sticky run. It didn't start to get uncomfortable until close to 10 (which I know because that's when I went to the farmers market.) My new shoes seemed pretty good too, although I should probably plan for a longer run before the return window closes to make sure they're okay for my toes.

Also on this morning's run, I swallowed a bug.