"You can tell them no..."

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I guess the question is, did you ever take all your Barbies to the park? And would you have let anyone else have one, while you were playing with the others?

I was trying to figure out why we never had any drama like the mum described in the original post, and I think it's because we had "park toys" (ie sand buckets, diggers, etc) that everyone could play with. As owner, you got dibs on the toys, of course. But sharing the rest was never an issue.

Sometimes a child might bring a single very special toy, such as a stuffed animal or action figure, that they were obsessed with, but everyone always seemed to understand that if they didn't put it down, they weren't going to share it. (Of course, if it DID get placed down in the sand - versus being given to an adult to guard - then it was fair game.) I generally discouraged the special toys, as the risk of misplacing them was always high and they'd get dirty. I often suggested that teddy might be happier to sit by the front door and wait for our return. But I didn't forbid them.

The kind of play you're describing tended to happen at home, rather than the park.

If I wasn't actively playing with it (which to be honest I LOVED barbies growing up so I did usually play with many at once) I probably would have let them use it and no it wasn't just at home that we would play with them. But to be honest none of my friends growing up thought I was a terrible person if I said no to them playing with my toys and I didn't think they were a terrible person if they didn't want me play with their toys. When we were old enough to bike and on our own we would take a few toys in a basket and go to a particular park and just play with our toys. Sometimes we would play with each other toys and sometimes we would just play with our own but we did play with each other even if with our own toys. For example I'm still friends with a girl I met when I was 6 1/2 years old. There were times where she and I were at a playground and her toy was her toy and my toy was my toy and we're still friends over 22 years later..

I also was in in-home daycare a lot growing up when I was at my mom's house as she went to work too early to leave myself and my sister at home. I would go before and after school in elementary school. I was frequently around multiple children; children would leave and go elsewhere and new ones would come. The in-home daycares that I went to were very much like playgrounds (actually one of them had a huge and I mean huge playground in their backyard). The setting was the same with kids bringing toys to play with from home at times. This one kid had a bunch of hot wheels toys that he would bring over all the time. The in-home daycare providers had a system where in part of the fee the parents paid would be used towards buying community toys but the parents were also free to bring toys to the house and leave them there to be used as community toys or they could say this is so and so's toys I don't want anyone else using them or the parents were free to have their kids brings toys over that they would take home at the end of the day. Community toys though didn't mean that if one kid was using the sand castle set in the backyard that another kid could just come in and say they want to play with it so the other kid has to give it up.

I did have a baby doll that was a 'real life' one. That baby doll that was not for others to touch. It was very very special to me. And yes it went with me to various places and had its own baby doll car seat for the car lol. I took it with me out and about at social settings. Other than interest in the doll itself the times that someone asked to play with it and I said no didn't turn into a whiny "mom/dad mackenzie won't let me play with her doll". I said no and life moved on and we played with something else (even with me holding the doll or the doll left in the car or my parent's care).

I don't think sharing in general is a problem nor the issue for me. It's the automatic assumption that if one brings a toy then one must share it even if it is a mundane toy. Now sure I can see toys that are more designated as 'park toys' and can understand why you discouraged special toys but at the same time I wouldn't begrudge a kid who brought a toy that they didn't really want to give to other kids to play with.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I have had kids (strangers) come up to me to "tattle" on my kids for not playing with them several times. In the context of "I want her/him to do XYZ with me, but s/he won't do what I want" and I've had my child look at me pleadingly because they just wanted to be left alone. I have even had children argue with me after I politely explained that "s/he doesn't have to play with you right now if s/he doesn't want to".

I see that kind of confusion sometimes in school, too. The kids are so used to being told "we're all friends here" that they take it way further than just an instruction to speak politely (even if it's a polite "no").

The whole sharing thing is definitely a complex issue. (In fact, as I've read through the thread, I've found myself "liking" posts on opposite sides.) I see no problem with a kid wanting to play with his own toys himself, but I also see the value in sharing as a way to make friends at the park.

When DS was little and we had play dates, I used to have him put things he didn't want to share in his bedroom and things he wanted to share in the playroom, which seemed to work most of the time.

I think this is definitely true:

There is a line between being generous and being taken advantage of.

and that it takes most kids a while to find it.

 

[cabanafrau]

This is about the fifth or sixth parenting blog post I've seen in the last year with a click-bait title about Sharing is Bad and a mostly harmless article about how it's not appropriate in every situation.

Mommy blogs must be hurting for traffic these days. This one was the most hostilely-written of any of the ones I've seen though.

The hostility of the author was a complete turn off. So much so it overshadowed any of the value that could have been found in her "tale", which is what I firmly believe it is. Her zeal to shine the light on her little precious and his ultra pure motivations, while she hastily applied Snidely Whiplash mustaches on the "snowflakes" and their moms with the ultra-glare-o-vision took the teachable moments out of the fake story with the staged photo op.

 

[wilkeliza]

I did not read all 6 pages but I agree with the sentiment of the original post but not necessarily the deliver.

I agree that children can be taught how it goes with adults in age appropriate ways. If I have a box of tissues at work I should share those with my co-workers because it is polite and there are a ton in a box. However, I have a set of very nice headphones I bring to work. I'm not expected to share those as they are personal and mine. If I bring 1 small chocolate bar no one expects me to share but if I have a massive bag of halloween candy sitting on my desk someone may ask and while I could say no they are all for me it is much easier to just say yes (baring any medical reason for keeping candy in your desk).

I think of toys at the park like my iPhone and other gadgets. If I go to sit at the park and enjoy a nice summer day am I expected to allow a stranger to play on my iPhone or try out my apple watch or nintendo switch or whatever portable gadget I may have taken with me that day? No it is my choice. So if I tell random stranger no then I don't find that to be rude at all. It isn't in your home and not a specific person you came to hang out with. Now say I'm at the same park and well my best friend Jane sees me. We start chatting and hanging out. She asks if she can see my phone to make a call as she left hers at home. Now the situation is different. If I wasn't actively using my phone, I know Jane is trustworth, and the battery is charged then saying no does rub someone the wrong way. It does in deed come off as rude. Similar with kids. Oh you know Johnny and are best friends with him. Sure it wasn't a set up play date but you are saying no Johnny can't play with you? I would ask why to my child (I don't have one just for full openness) and see did something happen at daycare or school between him and Johnny or does he want to just play alone or did he expect this to be a special moment between him and Suzie etc. Again familiarity with the person changes the reaction that is automatically deemed okay or not.

No onto the way the mom handled herself no it is never okay to call another person's child a snowflake. I'm sure when I was little I ran to mom and said "he won't share" and that didn't make me a snowflake. Sometimes my mom would have said I'm sorry sweetheart but it is his toy or That stinks why don't we find something else. Part of learning you don't get everything you want is how the situation is addressed when you are upset the first few times.

 

[tzolkin]

I see that kind of confusion sometimes in school, too. The kids are so used to being told "we're all friends here" that they take it way further than just an instruction to speak politely (even if it's a polite "no").

Definitely. I have noticed this quite a bit, especially with the anti-bullying awareness and emphasis on specific values. I certainly support being kind, sharing, including others, etc and am glad that these traits are being encouraged. However, some kids take that to mean "you have to play/do whatever I want or you're breaking the rules and I'm going to tell on you".


I can acknowledge that the tone of the post was a bit over the top, but I really don't think the situation is completely fabricated (because I have witnessed many similar). I have known many parents who teach their kids to be entitled brats in the name of "sharing" so I can see why the author may have wanted to call them out on it (even if she decided to do it in a snarky way). They are the type who always give in to everything their toddler wants just to avoid dealing with a tantrum. As the kids get older they then take it up a notch by demanding that everyone else give them whatever they want, but try to sugar coat it as "sharing" (Susie starts whining so her mom tells Johnny that he has to give her his toy)... The kids soon have no hesitation going up to a stranger who has something they want, demanding it, and then tattling because "my mom says everyone has to share with me".

 

[wilkeliza]

With regards to your "bodily integrity" comparison... it feels a bit like a woman walking into a singles bar and when men approach her and try to hit on her, she gets offended and says, "I'm waiting for my BOYFRIEND! Don't I have a right to be left alone? You're all so greedy and presumptuous!" They thought (reasonably) that she was looking to make new friends. She has every right to tell them to take a hike, of course. And of course her bodily autonomy should be respected. But, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a bit odd to go to a social venue, with no intention of being social with the people who are there.

Are singles bars really a thing? I can honestly say I've never been to a single bar that was just for singles. In your case though it sounds like you are totally okay with the guys I've come across who when I even flash my engagement ring have called me a B or told the bartender what a snob I am because I'm not willing to let them buy me or drink or when they hit on me I casually mention my fiance. A person should be allowed to ask or flirt but also be able to receive a no or no thanks if the other party isn't willing. Just being in a public place shouldn't dictate your willingness to another party.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I don't really think there is an expectation for kids to always share. In this woman's opinion there was and she is blaming the dirty looks on that. She doesn't really know if that's true.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Definitely. I have noticed this quite a bit, especially with the anti-bullying awareness and emphasis on specific values. I certainly support being kind, sharing, including others, etc and am glad that these traits are being encouraged. However, some kids take that to mean "you have to play/do whatever I want or you're breaking the rules and I'm going to tell on you".

Funny you should say that... at my kids' elementary school, they are expressly not allowed to say no if another child wants to join into a game at recess. Not allowed. Ever. Playing a 4-person game and you have 4, and someone else wants to join? Figure out a way to make it a 5-person game. Or take turns... during your already-too-short recess, spend half of it standing around while you wait for your turn in the game you started. It's a tad much. And it doesn't prepare these kids to deal with the reality that sometimes you're not invited to join the game... the team... the school... the company... Must admit that DS12 is happy to be in middle school now, and DD10 is looking forward to MS next year.

My kids over the years talked about how it seemed to them that the school routinely confused "bullying" with a kid being mean once or having a bad day. While true bullying is HORRIBLE, and there is plenty of evidence that it can do lasting damage, I think we're currently in a state of over-correction. At least where we live.

ETA: Just to give a bit of background/perspective... DD10 is SO kind and SO accommodating -- it is the theme throughout all of her report cards... she will work with anyone, and everyone wants to work with her. She is pleasant, accommodating, the first to jump up to help someone who needs it, etc. And even she thinks some of this stuff has gone too far.

 

[Magpie]

Are singles bars really a thing? I can honestly say I've never been to a single bar that was just for singles. In your case though it sounds like you are totally okay with the guys I've come across who when I even flash my engagement ring have called me a B or told the bartender what a snob I am because I'm not willing to let them buy me or drink or when they hit on me I casually mention my fiance. A person should be allowed to ask or flirt but also be able to receive a no or no thanks if the other party isn't willing. Just being in a public place shouldn't dictate your willingness to another party.

Not quite sure how you read that into what I wrote! I didn't say anything about the guys being rude or not taking no for an answer.

So please feel free to change "singles bar" to "speed dating night", if that helps the analogy make more sense to you. If you show up at a social event, you should not be offended when people try to socialize with you.

 

[rigs32]

But a location, including bars and parks, is not a social event. Some people want to enjoy them on their own. And it's perfectly fine to not want to engage with others.

 

[Hikergirl]

But a location, including bars and parks, is not a social event. Some people want to enjoy them on their own. And it's perfectly fine to not want to engage with others.

Well apparently unless you want to spend the night talking to every single person in a bar you should just stay home because its odd that would want to go out and not talk to every single stranger there. You should absolutely not go out to meet your friends and hang with them if other people are around, ever. You must only invite your friends to your house, or you go to theirs. Never go out in public with them!
And a kid should never ever bring a toy anywhere there may be other children. They should hide them away as to not tempt other kids. They can only play with their stuff in the privacy of their own home.

 

[Westcoastwild]

How unfortunate would it be for the young lad, if when his lady friend shows up she's not impressed by his toy, and ends up running off to play with the bad boys instead.

Playground drama!

This discussion is actually bringing back memories of watching my two children interact with strangers on the playground. I remember one incident in particular...

My 5yo daughter and 4yo son were turning rotten logs over and looking to see what they could find, when a strange boy arrived at the playground holding a toy truck.

My daughter stood up and held out two handfuls of slugs and said, "We're collecting slugs! Do you want one?"

My son, seeing the other boy step back, surreptitiously dropped his slugs behind him, wiped his hands on his pants, and said, "I hate slugs. But I like trucks. Do you like trucks, too?"

And the two boys walked off together to play with the newcomer's truck, while my daughter stood there in confusion, her hands full of slugs, saying, "We don't hate slugs. Slugs are cool!" It was obvious she had no idea what had just happened, or why she was suddenly without a playmate. When I stopped giggling under my breath, I reassured her that yes, she was correct, slugs are inherently awesome, and I told her I'd love to meet her slimy new friends.

Playground social dynamics can be tricky. "Sharing" is wonderful, but for most kids it takes time to learn both generosity and tact. They have to figure out how to play with another child, versus just with his toy. They have to figure out how to introduce themselves as a new playmate, and insert themselves into a new social dynamic. Every action has a reaction, and every choice has consequences. It is SO much more complicated than just, "You can tell them no!" Well, yes, of course you can tell them no. Sometimes you should tell them no. No one wants to teach their child that they can never stand up for themselves. But, what choices led up to this conflict? Was it unavoidable? What will the social consequences be? (ie, Now I'm alone with my toy, and no one's playing with me.)

If the kids bring me into it, then I'll give them my opinion. "You can't make someone want to play with you." "That toy belongs to him, and it's his choice whether he wants to share it or not." "Go find someone else to play with, if you're not getting along." But, otherwise, I let them work it out for themselves.

And while they do, I happily entertain myself by observing their little dramas.

Oh that is BEAUTIFUL. Have totally been your daughter. Always wished I was like your son, though. What a smooth operator!

Yeah, playground stuff, it's really not about the toy. It's about the interactions and choices and outcomes. I don't care for the mother's tone. I have a feeling she's one of those crazy people who pick something really minor to blow up on Facebook. EVERY SINGLE DAY. I'm basing it on the fact she didn't talk to these parents. She perceived dirty looks, for crying out loud. Even if she did, I'll bet you anything the was her tone of voice, NOT what she said that got her into trouble. I've encountered some real...interesting...parents in public parks.

 

[bethbuchall]

I agree that a child shouldn't be forced to share toys, but I think she certainly had a bad attitude towards the other mothers and children. I don't know if she was exaggerating or misreading the situation or is just non-social. She knows that her son needs to be taught that he is allowed to say no but doesn't realize that other children are still learning as well. They aren't necessarily bullying brats. They are excited children that need to be reminded of limits/boundaries. The other mothers could be taken aback by her jumping to conclusions about their children. Their looks could have been directed at their own children if they were being too aggressive. They could have been upset that the mother jumped in immediately to correct the situation instead of letting the children learn to negotiate for themselves. Or they could just have resting witchy faces.

I teach preschool, so these kinds of negotiations comprise a large part of my life. Toys from home are highly discouraged for several reasons (loss, breakage, tendency towards isolated play), but any item brought from home is definitely considered personal property, and the child does not have to let anyone else play with it. Preschool toys are communal, but that doesn't mean the child needs to immediately hand something over because another child wants it. If it is something that they can use together, they are encouraged to play together. They are not required to, though. If it's a puzzle or something that one child wants to do alone, then the other child needs to wait until the first is done. If it is a piece of playground equipment, we may set time limits to give everyone a chance. Sharing and "being a good friend" does not mean immediate forfeiture of the item you are using. Once the guidelines have been established, we also try to stay out of the negotiations, watching and assessing the situation until someone needs our help. We stress that everyone needs to be treated with kindness, not that everyone needs to play together all the time. The lessons aren't always easy, but just because a child is crying that another won't share, doesn't mean that he's spoiled, entitled, or a brat. He just needs to learn. They learn to work with others better when we model the behavior instead of stepping in immediately to resolve things our way.

 

[wilkeliza]

Not quite sure how you read that into what I wrote! I didn't say anything about the guys being rude or not taking no for an answer.

So please feel free to change "singles bar" to "speed dating night", if that helps the analogy make more sense to you. If you show up at a social event, you should not be offended when people try to socialize with you.

I guess to me going to a bar isn't just a social event. If I want to go to a bar and have a drink I would be able to say nope not freling like talking to you dude. The speed dating analogy doesn't really work because I can't imagine someone would go who isn't looking for a date.

The park is not necessarily a social event. A child should be able to go with their toy and say nope don't want to play with you if they so want.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I guess to me going to a bar isn't just a social event. If I want to go to a bar and have a drink I would be able to say nope not freling like talking to you dude. The speed dating analogy doesn't really work because I can't imagine someone would go who isn't looking for a date.

The park is not necessarily a social event. A child should be able to go with their toy and say nope don't want to play with you if they so want.

I'm not really sure I agree with you. If you take a young kid (or dog) to the park it is a social event. Because it is at least PARTLY about public manners and learning to interact with others. I mean, if a kid in my care does not WANT to interact with others, we are not going to go to a crowded park. If a dog in my care does not want to play nicely, he's not playing at the dog park at all. If the situation turns bad- like toddlers in the dog park or bullies in the sand box, or rowdy teens messing around on the playground equipment- I'm going to get my charge out of there.

In most of the situations people are citing, the difference is that there really is no concept of interaction. You're on your computer? People know to leave you alone. At a bar with friends? You probably aren't looking to hook up.

 

[wilkeliza]

I'm not really sure I agree with you. If you take a young kid (or dog) to the park it is a social event. Because it is at least PARTLY about public manners and learning to interact with others. I mean, if a kid in my care does not WANT to interact with others, we are not going to go to a crowded park. If a dog in my care does not want to play nicely, he's not playing at the dog park at all. If the situation turns bad- like toddlers in the dog park or bullies in the sand box, or rowdy teens messing around on the playground equipment- I'm going to get my charge out of there.

In most of the situations people are citing, the difference is that there really is no concept of interaction. You're on your computer? People know to leave you alone. At a bar with friends? You probably aren't looking to hook up.

If a kid wants to go to the park and swing on the swings and not talk or play with another kid I see that as ok. Maybe it is because I live somewhere where it is impossible to have your own back yard or swing set. The park to us can be social but it can also be a sinulsr activity. So again someone can feel okay asking to join in but has to respect if the other party says no. Just like I would feel as an adult. If I'm out enjoying my blanket in our local park then I don't feel like I should have to say yes to another person getting to sit and talk to me. I wonder if that is the major difference that some of us have.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'm not really sure I agree with you. If you take a young kid (or dog) to the park it is a social event. Because it is at least PARTLY about public manners and learning to interact with others. I mean, if a kid in my care does not WANT to interact with others, we are not going to go to a crowded park. If a dog in my care does not want to play nicely, he's not playing at the dog park at all. If the situation turns bad- like toddlers in the dog park or bullies in the sand box, or rowdy teens messing around on the playground equipment- I'm going to get my charge out of there.

In most of the situations people are citing, the difference is that there really is no concept of interaction. You're on your computer? People know to leave you alone. At a bar with friends? You probably aren't looking to hook up.

Eh I get your line of thinking but at the same time people go to parks all the time without the desire to be interacted with. People go to all sorts of crowded places without the intent of being interacted with. Something we learn over time is that not everyone wishes to be interacted with by virtue of being in the same space as you. Sure I get we're talking about kids in the original context though.

Now I understand your viewpoint in that if you are with a child who doesn't want to play then you won't go to the park where other kids are around but I personally don't agree with that which is totally fine that we don't agree. I just don't like the whole ultimatum that you have two choices- play/interact with others or we aren't going to the park. If the child isn't acting out or doing something that would ordinarily be considered wrong I don't want to punish them by not allowing them to go to the park just because they wish to play on their own.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Eh I get your line of thinking but at the same time people go to parks all the time without the desire to be interacted with. People go to all sorts of crowded places without the intent of being interacted with. Something we learn over time is that not everyone wishes to be interacted with by virtue of being in the same space as you. Sure I get we're talking about kids in the original context though.

Now I understand your viewpoint in that if you are with a child who doesn't want to play then you won't go to the park where other kids are around but I personally don't agree with that which is totally fine that we don't agree. I just don't like the whole ultimatum that you have two choices- play/interact with others or we aren't going to the park. If the child isn't acting out or doing something that would ordinarily be considered wrong I don't want to punish them by not allowing them to go to the park just because they wish to play on their own.

Oh, right. Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound like such an ultimatum. I've got a list of "social parks" and a list of "leave me the heck alone parks". The kid or dog will still get to play. We just don't go to the "social parks" if they are in the mood to play by themselves. This kind of situation happens at the crowded parks. I've never seen it happen at my "leave me alone parks". Generally they're on their best behavior at the "social parks" because those have the best toys and that's what we're there for specifically. And "the best toys" means it is a situation in which how they interact with the people around them matters.

If they need space, they need space. I see it as sort of the same as picking a hiking trail for myself. I'm not going to pick the most popular one if I don't want to interact with people. I'm going to pick the one where the few people I will run into are just fine with a short nod as we pass, one where I'm really unlikely to run into loud chatty groups.

 

[Magpie]

Eh I get your line of thinking but at the same time people go to parks all the time without the desire to be interacted with. People go to all sorts of crowded places without the intent of being interacted with. Something we learn over time is that not everyone wishes to be interacted with by virtue of being in the same space as you. Sure I get we're talking about kids in the original context though.

Now I understand your viewpoint in that if you are with a child who doesn't want to play then you won't go to the park where other kids are around but I personally don't agree with that which is totally fine that we don't agree. I just don't like the whole ultimatum that you have two choices- play/interact with others or we aren't going to the park. If the child isn't acting out or doing something that would ordinarily be considered wrong I don't want to punish them by not allowing them to go to the park just because they wish to play on their own.

I think there's a middle ground here, at the playground. It doesn't have to be either socialize or don't go.

No, you don't HAVE to play with the other kids, but don't be offended if they ask to play with you. Just say no.

No, you don't HAVE to share with the other kids, but don't be outraged if they ask you to share. Just say no.

The original post was quite correct in one thing - it's absolutely okay to say no.

Where the poster goes off the rails is in her characterization of the other children as "greedy" and "tattletales" and "snowflakes" and her apparent expectation that they should not even have come running up to her child in the first place. She really doesn't seem to like children (hers naturally being the exception).

Yes, her child is free to play alone at the park if that's his wish. Or to play with just the one little girl (several years younger than him, by the look of that photo), that he gets along with. But since he has chosen to come to the park (a place where youngsters socialize), neither he nor his mother should be surprised or offended if other children run up to him when he shows up with an armful of toys. The two of them just need to make it clear to them that he's not interested in being sociable. (Which is exactly what they did, though the mum appears to have felt quite defensive about it.)

Also, her "sandwich" analogy was terrible. If he'd walked into the park munching on a sandwich, I guarantee none of the other children would have asked him to share it. No one wants your chewed-on sandwich, lady!

 

[Westcoastwild]

If a kid wants to go to the park and swing on the swings and not talk or play with another kid I see that as ok. Maybe it is because I live somewhere where it is impossible to have your own back yard or swing set. The park to us can be social but it can also be a sinulsr activity. So again someone can feel okay asking to join in but has to respect if the other party says no. Just like I would feel as an adult. If I'm out enjoying my blanket in our local park then I don't feel like I should have to say yes to another person getting to sit and talk to me. I wonder if that is the major difference that some of us have.

I do get what you're saying. But the blanket and swings are different from each other. The kid can swing without being bothered but still has to A) take turns and b) tolerate kids also swinging or playing on the playground.

Your blanket, though, is not something you've got to share. An adult is not going to ask to share your blanket as an ice breaker. I think kids DO ask to share toys as an icebreaker. It's part of the learning process. And unless it was clearly a case of some kid stealing the toy from my kid, I'd suggest sharing the toy or putting it in the car if he didn't want to share. (Well, to be perfectly honest, that toy would not have made it outside of the car if it were me. If the toy is too nice to share, it's too nice to risk ruining at the park. Too many things can happen to it.)