WWYD? Concerned

[Wishing on a star]

Yes...
Not the same at all...
Not even close.

We are talking about an adult well into their 20's (almost 30 at this point) who has been carrying on a close, one-on-one intimate relationship with a 14-15-16 year old child.

Their supposed religious beliefs do NOTHING to justify this.

In fact, I don't know what is scarier...
This teens families religious beliefs, or the fact that he is personally involved with an adult.

At this point, I don't know which is the lessor of the two evils.

For those who are saying for the parents to sanction and justify this by bringing this almost 30 year old adult woman into their home...

Wow...

 

[NHdisneylover]

Yes...
Not the same at all...
Not even close.

We are talking about an adult well into their 20's (almost 30 at this point) who has been carrying on a close, one-on-one intimate relationship with a 14-15-16 year old child.

Their supposed religious beliefs do NOTHING to justify this.

In fact, I don't know what is scarier...
This teens families religious beliefs, or the fact that he is personally involved with an adult.

At this point, I don't know which is the lessor of the two evils.

For those who are saying for the parents to sanction and justify this by bringing this almost 30 year old adult woman into their home...

Wow...

This is just the sort of disrespectful religious insult that caused religious talk to be banned on the DIS and could likely get this thread closed.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I did not really insult or disrespect anyone here....
I expressed true worry and concern for a minor child.

So, let me re-phrase that....

"I don't know which concerns me more...."

The OP openly brought up the religious aspects here.
Nobody has really insulted.
And I am not the only one expressing such concern.
Just the most recent....
I had refrained from expressing this until now, as the thread has come this far.

Yes, I would be concerned when religion is used to justify an inappropriate relationship between an adult and a minor child.

 

[Tiggeroo]

The thing that concerns me is the faith. In both of the situations I mentioned faith became a complicated part of the problem. The older person I evolved faith and that caused the younger person to let their guard down more. Also if a situation turns ugly it can cause the younger person to lose their faith or to have it corrupted. I would rather a young person be with a person with no faith but strong values then a person with faith but a confused value system.

 

[luvsJack]

Did you read what I wrote?

I specifically talked about that they do some things that do not fall into the Gothard traditions, and how that could be making it HARDER on the son, as he is "too conservative" even for his classmates and the youth group at the one church but not enough for the group at the Gothard church.

I also specifically talked about, if they do not want this to truly be courting, then making the woman more a friend of the family, and not just the son'S friend--both to encourage the son to seek friendship (or more) elsewhere AND to change the perception of what is going on within the community (because as it stands now, it seems the perception would have to be either that they are courting or that something inappropriate is going on--either of which is going to ruin any chance either the woman or the son has of connecting with someone at church).

You may not agree with my (or others') take on it, but it is odd to say we are missing things we directly addressed.

And if you read my previous post, you would see that I said I agree with you.

I wasn't talking about you when I said some may be missing that they don't strictly adhere to those teachings.

 

[luvsJack]

I did not really insult or disrespect anyone here....
I expressed true worry and concern for a minor child.

So, let me re-phrase that....

"I don't know which concerns me more...."

The OP openly brought up the religious aspects here.
Nobody has really insulted.
And I am not the only one expressing such concern.
Just the most recent....
I had refrained from expressing this until now, as the thread has come this far.

Yes, I would be concerned when religion is used to justify an inappropriate relationship between an adult and a minor child.

She isn't doing that. And we do not know if the relationship is inappropriate at this point. It could be more like a older sibling/younger sibling type thing.

My oldest is 32. my youngest 15--he is the one she goes to about things when she wants a "younger" take on them. That may be the case here.

 

[mousears123]

Well for starters one is an adult and one still a child albeit a older child. Second they are in two completely different parts of life. One is just starting out, getting ready for college etc and the other is settled into a job, has their own place etc. a three year difference is completely different and the people are usually in the same area of their lives. Even a 24 and 35 year old could still be in the same part of their lives, after school, working etc.

To clarify she is at home with her parents and a few younger siblings. She hasn't been able to move out because under our belief system one generally does not move out unless they are married.
Our son most likely (it will be his choice) may choose not to go to college unless God leads him toward seminary school. College isnt typical for Gothard families for reasons i wont go into. The young lady did go to college, but it was a small private college and she went for a music degree, which is suitable because she intended for music to be her ministry. She's working part time at this point since she is still unmarried but her boss at her job is a relative.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

I see 2 possibilities here.
1) they are pulling the wool over your eyes and either have an inappropriate relationship or are biding their time until he turns 18 when they will want to get married.
2) she's using your son as a "safe" friend because she knows he won't try anything, but maybe he gives her the adoration she craves. And let's be honest, he probably thinks it's awesome that an older woman is his close friend.

When I was 20 I became good friends with a girl who was 16 because we were in all the same ballet classes so we spent hours together everyday. We bonded over our love of dance. 2 years later we grew apart because our lives were on different paths. I graduated college and she was just starting. We didn't have much in common at all. We didn't reconnect until a couple years ago when we were both kind of in the same place with husbands and careers. You change a lot between 15 and 25. The only thing a 28 and 16 year old should have in common is religion and that is not enough to sustain a friendship. Either this woman is emotionally stunted or something fishy is going on.

 

[Laura66]

I know a family like this - she is a dear friend - but was called to this type of life in the past 10 years.
Frankly - I'm surprised, but thankful our friendship still endures!

 

[AC7179]

To clarify she is at home with her parents and a few younger siblings. She hasn't been able to move out because under our belief system one generally does not move out unless they are married.
Our son most likely (it will be his choice) may choose not to go to college unless God leads him toward seminary school. College isnt typical for Gothard families for reasons i wont go into. The young lady did go to college, but it was a small private college and she went for a music degree, which is suitable because she intended for music to be her ministry. She's working part time at this point since she is still unmarried but her boss at her job is a relative.

She is not a "normal" 28 year old. I hate to use the word abnormal because it has negative connotations, but really, I think here age is just a number. She is NOT a woman of the world who is a typical 28 year old. She still lives at home under her parent's rule at 28 years old. Who cares, even if she DOES have a relationship with this younger boy? They are on the same level in terms of life experiences, and they like each other. She doesn't have nefarious intent. Does a 28 year old in the Gothard system differ that much from a 20 year old? They are both stay at home daughters, living under the parents' rule. She has likely gotten very LITTLE life experience in the past 8 years.

In a typical situation, I would say keep a typical 28 year old away from my 16 year old. At 28, I was married, had a child, and working on my master's degree. I was responsible for a family. I had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, some of my friends lived alone, traveling and working as professionals. THEY had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, this woman is living at home at her parent's home, held to strict rules and boundaries, and has never kissed a man. She has EVERYTHING in common with this 16 year old and I think that even if they courted, it wouldn't be a bad thing. She's not trying to get into his pants, and she's not a pedophile, even if they end up courting. She's relating to someone she can relate to, and those are not other "Typical" 20-somethings, it's a 16 year old boy. If you like your culture and your religion, really, I see nothing wrong with it.

 

[NHdisneylover]

To clarify she is at home with her parents and a few younger siblings. She hasn't been able to move out because under our belief system one generally does not move out unless they are married.
Our son most likely (it will be his choice) may choose not to go to college unless God leads him toward seminary school. College isnt typical for Gothard families for reasons i wont go into. The young lady did go to college, but it was a small private college and she went for a music degree, which is suitable because she intended for music to be her ministry. She's working part time at this point since she is still unmarried but her boss at her job is a relative.

Having read some about the beliefs of Gothard, vision forum, etc I suspected this.

I wonder how her family feels about the amount of time she spends with your son?

 

[Gracie09]

To clarify she is at home with her parents and a few younger siblings. She hasn't been able to move out because under our belief system one generally does not move out unless they are married. Our son most likely (it will be his choice) may choose not to go to college unless God leads him toward seminary school. College isnt typical for Gothard families for reasons i wont go into. The young lady did go to college, but it was a small private college and she went for a music degree, which is suitable because she intended for music to be her ministry. She's working part time at this point since she is still unmarried but her boss at her job is a relative.

Still inappropriate. My husbands family is part of a very conservative religion similar to gothard. When bil turned 25 they told him he could no longer be a member of the youth group because it was inappropriate.

 

[NHdisneylover]

She is not a "normal" 28 year old. I hate to use the word abnormal because it has negative connotations, but really, I think here age is just a number. She is NOT a woman of the world who is a typical 28 year old. She still lives at home under her parent's rule at 28 years old. Who cares, even if she DOES have a relationship with this younger boy? They are on the same level in terms of life experiences, and they like each other. She doesn't have nefarious intent. Does a 28 year old in the Gothard system differ that much from a 20 year old? They are both stay at home daughters, living under the parents' rule. She has likely gotten very LITTLE life experience in the past 8 years.

In a typical situation, I would say keep a typical 28 year old away from my 16 year old. At 28, I was married, had a child, and working on my master's degree. I was responsible for a family. I had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, some of my friends lived alone, traveling and working as professionals. THEY had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, this woman is living at home at her parent's home, held to strict rules and boundaries, and has never kissed a man. She has EVERYTHING in common with this 16 year old and I think that even if they courted, it wouldn't be a bad thing. She's not trying to get into his pants, and she's not a pedophile, even if they end up courting. She's relating to someone she can relate to, and those are not other "Typical" 20-somethings, it's a 16 year old boy. If you like your culture and your religion, really, I see nothing wrong with it.

I think this post has some really good points in it. It does sound like this young woman's life experiences are not more than that of a more typical teen's would be, and quite possibly even less (a very sheltered, small, Christian college and a part time job working for a relative after being fully homeschooled before college in such a sheltered belief system probably would provide less experiences in being self sufficient, in forming opinions, in working with a variety of people, etc etc, than what my 15 and 17 year old kids have)

 

[Ed J]

is she hot?

 

[NHdisneylover]

And if you read my previous post, you would see that I said I agree with you.

I wasn't talking about you when I said some may be missing that they don't strictly adhere to those teachings.

Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were saying it was missed since I did not see the "family friend" possibility.

BTW, we do have a family friend who is 28. He is a co worker of my husband'S and we often do things together with him. He and my DD17 DID got to the new Star Trek movie together when it came out and do plan to go to the Star Trek convention together next month. Because he really is a family friend and the vast majority of the time he is either with our entire family, or with just us adults (and he has a long term girlfriend), etc it does not worry me at all. It just happens that neither of them knows anyone else as obsessed with Star Trek as they are, so for that it works for them to go together.

But, that is a once every six months kind of thing, and we are not part of a belief system where that is likely to appear as courting, etc.

 

[Kogo Shuko]

I've been following this thread for a couple days now, and find every response extremely interesting.

On one hand, it does somewhat sound like the woman is grooming the OP's son to possibly be a future husband.

At the same time, I can attest that a 27 year old woman can be friends with a 16 year old girl because I have a few teenage friends. Keep in mind that it isn't a girl and a boy situation, but honestly, I don't think gender has anything to do with it.

Sometimes a common interest links people of all ages. I have a group of friends that are under the age of 18 that have added me on Facebook. I never add them, but if they add me, I will accept. Why do I have these friends that are over 10 years younger than me? Because we have a common interest that is acceptable and fun for ALL AGES. I ride horses. They ride horses. It's a close-knit community, and you find yourself with friends from all walks of life and all ages. My riding instructor is over 15 years older than me, yet I consider her one of my best friends.

And while I do not go out of my way to hang out with the teenage girls that ride, at least one of them seeks me out at social functions (fairs and concerts, for instance) and will message me on Facebook about horses, her favourite band, learning to use photo-editing tools, and even how much she hates her schoolwork. I keep the conversations appropriate and to a minimum, but the conversations happen, nonetheless.

Why?

Because while I may be 10 years older than her, I can still relate to what she's going through at her age.

I suppose the big difference here is that I understand I have to draw a line somewhere and not interact with these friends on a one-on-one basis. It's one thing to go to their barn and take photos for them (I dabble in photography), but it would be another thing if I went to the movies with them. Unless it was a barn outting with everyone going, including the instructor.

It still amazes me how open teenagers are and how immediate they want to add older folks to their Facebook pages, but I'm not the only adult rider that has friended them. I just keep my own content appropriate so I don't offend anyone.

In a case like this one, though, things are a bit more complicated. Yes, the 28 year old probably shouldn't be spending so much time alone with the 16 year old, but in a sheltered life, I can see why she would. Finding someone else who shares a UNcommon interest, you tend to latch on to that person because they understand how you feel. And when the rest of the world can't seem to understand the interest, at least that one person does. Age doesn't matter in a case like that. If someone was into one of my more obscure interests, I don't care if they're 15, 55, or 85. They'll become my friend and I'll want to discuss that topic.

I personally would be a bit uncomfortable with the given situation if it were my child, and I probably wouldn't let them have so many one-on-one interactions, however I would not force my son to not speak to her at all. I'd more than happily let them interact at social functions (church, fairs, etc), and embrace the person as a family friend as they do share religious beliefs with the entire family, which is probably not very common in a situation like this.

 

[DWGal210]

She is not a "normal" 28 year old. I hate to use the word abnormal because it has negative connotations, but really, I think here age is just a number. She is NOT a woman of the world who is a typical 28 year old. She still lives at home under her parent's rule at 28 years old. Who cares, even if she DOES have a relationship with this younger boy? They are on the same level in terms of life experiences, and they like each other. She doesn't have nefarious intent. Does a 28 year old in the Gothard system differ that much from a 20 year old? They are both stay at home daughters, living under the parents' rule. She has likely gotten very LITTLE life experience in the past 8 years.

In a typical situation, I would say keep a typical 28 year old away from my 16 year old. At 28, I was married, had a child, and working on my master's degree. I was responsible for a family. I had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, some of my friends lived alone, traveling and working as professionals. THEY had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, this woman is living at home at her parent's home, held to strict rules and boundaries, and has never kissed a man. She has EVERYTHING in common with this 16 year old and I think that even if they courted, it wouldn't be a bad thing. She's not trying to get into his pants, and she's not a pedophile, even if they end up courting. She's relating to someone she can relate to, and those are not other "Typical" 20-somethings, it's a 16 year old boy. If you like your culture and your religion, really, I see nothing wrong with it.

I think you're probably right.

I do feel for this young woman; being 28 and an unmarried woman in their culture/religion would be difficult, I think (it would be for me, but I suppose if you're raised a certain way that's all you know). I don't think that she is using the OPs son, but it sounds like this is the only "relationship" she has with a young man/boy who isn't a family member. I don't mean they're courting/dating, but going to dinner, going to museums, etc with the OPs son is probably the only interaction she has with a man she isn't related to, and I'm sure she enjoys that. It doesn't mean there's anything bad going on, but clearly your son cares about her (if not romantic, at least as a friend) and I'm sure that makes her feel good.

 

[mousears123]

Dear Mods (and OP): I have been mulling this situation over in my head all morning and would truly like to offer some thoughts to the OP in the hopes of helping her and her son. I see no way to do so without discussing her religion as it pertains to this particular situation. I think this is okay within the DIS guidelines as so far as I understand them, as I feel we are prevented from debating what is right or wrong within religion, but not from a respectful and factual discussion in which it is somewhat involved (at least, that was what I understood as to why prayer requests are allowed). Please accept my sincere apologies if I am misinterpreting this at all, and OP also accept mine if I come across as anything other than respectful; I do not share your beliefs but I am trying to look at this issue from within a framework including them, if that makes sense.

and with that LONG preamble here goes a really, really long post (or series of posts perhaps, to break it up):

OP, your son is 16 1/2. This is an age in which most teen boys are meeting and dating girls. You and he have very restrictive religious beliefs that do not even allow dating (so far as I understand it) only courtship. The church you attend daily and half the Sundays in a given month does not have teens who you or he feel are suitable to spend time with.

Your son attends a Christian school, but others of your faith do not beleive in even teens attending school outside the home, so the kids he goes to school with are not going to share his faith and the girls there (if there are any? IS it co-ed?) will not be of the same courtship mindset or possibly not up to his faith standards.

This means your son really only sees girls his age that he might be able to be interested and have be interested in him two times per month when you go to your home church. That is precious little opportunity for a boy his age. FURTHERMORE, you yourself point out that you are not as conservative in the following of your religion as most. You send your older children (including this son) to private Christian schools, allow them out into the world more, and even went to Disney World, all of which many in your faith disapprove of. This means it is quite possible that the young women in your home church (or their families) do not see your son as having a strong enough or correct faith to consider him for any future relationship. So, it is very possible that so long as he has this faith in this environment he has truly no possibilities of forming romantic relationships of any kind with girls his own age. In effect, xyou have (purely unintentionally, I am sure) put him in a situation where he does not "belong" in any social group with those his age and is likely to be seen as "not suitable" dating/courting material to ANYone he has contact with.

It sounds like the woman is in a similar boat. Pretty much all the men and women in your faith are married long before 28. Most already have kids and are not even going to be easily available to do "friend" things with a 28 year old single person. She probably has virtually no chance to meet potential suitors and extremely few chances to hang out with friends (within the faith) at all.

To some extent, within that context, it seems somewhat "natural" that they have formed a friendship; they have no one else really. On the other hand, it would also be extremely natural under such circumstances for that friendship to develop into more (and I suspect it already has for your DS if not yet for her).

I think you and your DH need to be honest with yourselves about what the two are likely feeling or will feel, and about what the type of isolation your beliefs combined with where you live has done to foster that, then you can begin to address the situation.

YES. We have been talking about this with him recently. What we always thought was just us doing what we felt was right for our family, has now placed him at a disadvantage, caught between two worlds as you say. We are "too Gothard" for the mainstream church and "not Gothard enough" for the home church. We even allowed him group dates without parents along which meant he had a couple of girlfriends in the past, which makes him loose by Gothard standards. Our son is so much MORE steadfast in his decision of Gothard teachings than we are and will almost certainly want to marry a Gothard girl. And now that he is reaching a courting age, he has told us - with some resentment- that he is going to have to work so much harder to prove himself to the family of a Gothard girl because he was brought up a little more mainstream- still conservative but more mainstream than Gothard. So now we are in the middle of that and are going to have to bear his resentment that he will have to try harder to prove himself to families. This wasn't something we anticipated.

 

[NHdisneylover]

YES. We have been talking about this with him recently. What we always thought was just us doing what we felt was right for our family, has now placed him at a disadvantage, caught between two worlds as you say. We are "too Gothard" for the mainstream church and "not Gothard enough" for the home church. We even allowed him group dates without parents along which meant he had a couple of girlfriends in the past, which makes him loose by Gothard standards. Our son is so much MORE steadfast in his decision of Gothard teachings than we are and will almost certainly want to marry a Gothard girl. And now that he is reaching a courting age, he has told us - with some resentment- that he is going to have to work so much harder to prove himself to the family of a Gothard girl because he was brought up a little more mainstream- still conservative but more mainstream than Gothard. So now we are in the middle of that and are going to have to bear his resentment that he will have to try harder to prove himself to families. This wasn't something we anticipated.

Thank you for taking my comments as intended and not being offended when I saw that issue.

Even though we have very different belief systems, I really feel for you being caught in this spot (as well as for your son). I can entirely imagine that you thought you were doing the best thing for all and would not have anticipated this. It is SO HARD as parents to anticipate how seemingly simple things will ripple into something much bigger down the road .

I do think it would be good to use those prior discussions with your son as a jumping off point now for this situation. I simply cannot imagine that spending so much time with his 28 year old friend will do anything other than make it even harder for him to "prove himself" to Gothard families. I think it is only right to stress that to him and make him very aware of it.

 

[elaine amj]

I'd be very open with her and would go into it assuming she sees herself as an adult friend/mentor - again I'll say this is very common amongst "church people". She may even consider it sort of a ministry if she has a particular heart for youth. Your meeting definitely doesn't need to start out adversarial. A woman of her age must understand that 16 y.o.'s are not completely autonomous and parental concern is not out of line, in fact I would find it odd if you weren't a little concerned. (FWIW, while we seldom restrict our DS's activities, we do at least require to know who he's with and where he's at.)

As AC7179 suspected, we follow Gothard's teachings for the most part but not completely (we were formerly part of VisionForum and DS's goal was to be a VisionForum intern but with recent scandal we have left the VisionForum) for example we do not homeschool all the way up to 12th instead we do send our children to Christian school once they are in 9th grade, we do allow them more outside activities not necessarily just within the ATI community.
I am able to speak about Gothard and ATI with "mousears123" because I have not discussed them under my correct username, knowing I wouldn't likely find ATI people here.

We do want our children to be responsible and make their own decisions once they get to the 16-18 age range. Many families tighten the reins at that point but we've decided of we have raised them right then at 16-18 we need to let him be an adult as he could be married in as little as 3 or 4 years and the head of a family. We want the beginnings of that to occur under our supervision, but at some point it will happen. It is highly unusual for this young woman at 28 to be unmarried. Another part of our concern is WHY she is still unmarried, but we do know a few families with unmarried children that age who through no fault of their own have not married.
Our plan at this point is to keep her close by having them spend time in our home with our family and also getting to know her family as well. If we get more in between the two of them then we will know that nothing untoward can be going on. I thank everyone for their help, it has been so appreciated.

For now, it sounds like she considers herself more of a mentor. I would spend time making sure they both understand that avoiding the appearance of eveil and being smart about putting themselves into situations is also important. In your situation, I would also gently discourage too many one on one outings. One here and there is fine - but every week is a little much IMO. I would also make sure I involve the woman in more family outings to encourage a more sibling-like relationship. You would also be helping this woman, who sounds lonely.

At the same time, don't put too many ideas into their heads that you don't want to encourage. Constantly warning them could easily backfire on you.