WWYD? Concerned

[mousears123]

Lol, so I wasn't the only one who went and Googled it, huh? And um, yeah, wow is about all I can say without getting points.

One thing I don't understand, though, is why the OP said that it was ok to mention that they are followers of that only since she wasn't using her regular screen name. Is it like Fight Club or something?

I don't discuss it under my correct username since I tend not to discuss personal or family situations on disboards.
People who "know" me here know that I home school my younger ones and that we have a larger family, but I do not discuss anything more personal than that. This is also why I created mousears123 so that I could ask for insight into a family situation without it affecting my correct username.

 

[mousears123]

Absolutely! and still reading- I can't stop

I have to say that in light of these teachings that OP and her family follow, I'm wondering how this relationship was even remotely allowed, ok, whatever?

Unlike most ATI families we do have our kids do some things outside the normal realm of what most do, including going to Christian school rather than homeschooling once they reach 9th grade. When I found this forum around 4 years ago it was that we were planning a Disney trip, which made us stand out in our crowd and not in a good way, but we fed the mouse and had a fun time. Another thing we allow is volunteering in the community as a way to foster a servant's heart and also yes as an outreach ministry. DS was volunteering for an organization that this young lady works part-time for. This is how they met. We allowed it because she was a Christian with a more fundamentalist approach and felt she was a positive example since she was in the work force working around others but still holding firm to her teachings.

 

[mousears123]

Sounds like things went great and it is innocent and just a friendship. The only other thing I would suggest is to keep an eye on how your son seems to feel. Did he take it ok or agree when you invited her to church and to introduce her to other men her age?

I can completely understand their friendship. Finding someone who shares your beliefs and convictions is not always an easy thing, regardless of what faith you are.

I missed your question I apologize. Ds did not react in any way when I made the suggestion of her coming with us. Later he said he thought it would cheer her up to meet our church families.
Since we attend two churches, she will have more opportunities to meet men. Her church is very small and although similar to ours, her church is more older people and families with young children there is a gap where she should be. I do feel for her, it is difficult to be her age 28 and still find fundamentalist men who aren't already married.


We attend a non denominational (but with more baptist than anything else) "mega church" through the week and most Sundays because it is close and offers a lot (although this is the church I mentioned in a previous post where DS doesn't want to be involved in the youth group because the youth group teens are wild).

Two Sundays a month, we drive further away to a home church made up entirely of Gothard families, and I think there are a few young men there that would be very suitable for her.

 

[AC7179]

Do you understand what I mean by the fact that she could be actually better suited for companionship with your son rather than a 28 year old man? I don't think it's pedophilia, even if there's that age difference, if they are on the same level mentally and emotionally. I would think a 28 year old women being kept so sheltered is closer to a 16 year old boys mentality than that of a 28 year old man. Also, I think the men tend to marry earlier bc there is more of an urge to have that kind of physical relationship---they are not going to wait until 28!

 

[southlakejr]

I have two different perspectives on this.

The first is that I am a 28 year old woman. My initial reaction was "No. I would never, ever want to hang out with a 16 year old boy one on one" Then I thought about it further. I was a youth leader for quite some time- and,as a rule, would have not spent time one on one with a student of the opposite gender. But, as I think about it, there was a student that I did, at times. I was 20 at the time and he was 14. I would probably still spend time with him today if we lived in the same region. The difference is that I also had a very, very good relationship with his parents. I was 6 hours away from home for college, and his family would frequently have me over for dinner. I would spend time with him taking him to his sports games, or he and I would occasionally grab dinner/coffee, etc. I can say with 30000% certainty that there was no romantic interest on my part, and very likely that there was never any on his. BUT- one of the big keys here was my relationship with his parents. I never would have been so involved in a students' life without also being involved with the family.

The other side of this coin... DH is 9 years older than I am, and we started dating when I was 17. Granted- I had graduated from highschool at that point and was on my way to college. While my religious background is not as strict as yours, saving sex for marriage was important to DH and I, and a vow we did uphold. However, the age difference between us made it imperative that our relationship always be out and the open to avoid speculation. My mom was initially very unhappy about our relationship, but she definitely came around when she saw how we conducted ourselves.

My personal opinion on what you have stated here is that this woman probably doesn't have any romantic inclinations towards your son- but I would be very wary of your son growing too attached to her and getting his heart broken. Keeping her close to your family will probably be in everyone's best interests, hopefully increasing the family time can foster more of a sibling type relationship? Perhaps this is a good time to have a "guard your heart" talk with DS? Good luck- I know the situation must be frustrating and worrisome for you!

 

[tar heel]

What does ATI stand for?

 

[NHdisneylover]

Lol, so I wasn't the only one who went and Googled it, huh? And um, yeah, wow is about all I can say without getting points.

One thing I don't understand, though, is why the OP said that it was ok to mention that they are followers of that only since she wasn't using her regular screen name. Is it like Fight Club or something?

I assume she meant that if she mentioned her very unusual religion under her normal user name, then it would be very easy to google and figure out who she really is if she also mentioned it under this name. Since she has not mentioned it previously, then she feels it is okay and will not "out" her to bring it up in this conversation.

and I am about to google myself, sounds like a very interesting belief system, just the creation museum they went to kind of blew my mind when I googled about that earlier.

My personal opinion on what you have stated here is that this woman probably doesn't have any romantic inclinations towards your son- but I would be very wary of your son growing too attached to her and getting his heart broken. Keeping her close to your family will probably be in everyone's best interests, hopefully increasing the family time can foster more of a sibling type relationship? Perhaps this is a good time to have a "guard your heart" talk with DS? Good luck- I know the situation must be frustrating and worrisome for you!

This would be my best guess about the situation as well. I do not think we can look at this woman as a "normal 28 year old woman" if she was raised in such a strict and sheltered way, so much of the harsh judgement on this thread is likely not entirely fair.

If I had to guess, I would say the son already has a crush on her (thus the "see how great she is" comments) and the woman is not exprienced enough to pick up on that. I also think if left alone long enough the feelings could become reciprocal, so restricting their time together to when family is there and trying to get her out and meeting other suitably aged men is a good idea OP

 

[NHdisneylover]

What does ATI stand for?

Advanced Training Institute

http://ati.iblp.org/ati/about/curriculum/wisdombooklets/

 

[Disney Doll]

She probably doesn't want to be ridiculed for her convictions and religious practices.

Which basically already happened.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Dear Mods (and OP): I have been mulling this situation over in my head all morning and would truly like to offer some thoughts to the OP in the hopes of helping her and her son. I see no way to do so without discussing her religion as it pertains to this particular situation. I think this is okay within the DIS guidelines as so far as I understand them, as I feel we are prevented from debating what is right or wrong within religion, but not from a respectful and factual discussion in which it is somewhat involved (at least, that was what I understood as to why prayer requests are allowed). Please accept my sincere apologies if I am misinterpreting this at all, and OP also accept mine if I come across as anything other than respectful; I do not share your beliefs but I am trying to look at this issue from within a framework including them, if that makes sense.

and with that LONG preamble here goes a really, really long post (or series of posts perhaps, to break it up):

OP, your son is 16 1/2. This is an age in which most teen boys are meeting and dating girls. You and he have very restrictive religious beliefs that do not even allow dating (so far as I understand it) only courtship. The church you attend daily and half the Sundays in a given month does not have teens who you or he feel are suitable to spend time with.

Your son attends a Christian school, but others of your faith do not beleive in even teens attending school outside the home, so the kids he goes to school with are not going to share his faith and the girls there (if there are any? IS it co-ed?) will not be of the same courtship mindset or possibly not up to his faith standards.

This means your son really only sees girls his age that he might be able to be interested and have be interested in him two times per month, when you go to your home church. That is precious little opportunity for a boy his age. FURTHERMORE, you yourself point out that you are not as conservative in the following of your religion as most. You send your older children (including this son) to private Christian schools, allow them out into the world more, and even went to Disney World, all of which many in your faith disapprove of. This means it is quite possible that the young women in your home church (or their families) do not see your son as having a strong enough or correct faith to consider him for any future relationship. So, it is very possible that so long as he has this faith in this environment he has truly no possibilities of forming romantic relationships of any kind with girls his own age. In effect, xyou have (purely unintentionally, I am sure) put him in a situation where he does not "belong" in any social group with those his age and is likely to be seen as "not suitable" dating/courting material to ANYone he has contact with.

It sounds like the woman is in a similar boat. Pretty much all the men and women in your faith are married long before 28. Most already have kids and are not even going to be easily available to do "friend" things with a 28 year old single person. She probably has virtually no chance to meet potential suitors and extremely few chances to hang out with friends (within the faith) at all.

To some extent, within that context, it seems somewhat "natural" that they have formed a friendship; they have no one else really. On the other hand, it would also be extremely natural under such circumstances for that friendship to develop into more (and I suspect it already has for your DS if not yet for her).

I think you and your DH need to be honest with yourselves about what the two are likely feeling or will feel, and about what the type of isolation your beliefs combined with where you live has done to foster that, then you can begin to address the situation.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I also want to point out that when I read what Gothard describes as courtship, that is pretty much exactly what is going on between this woman and your son. In fact, you and your husband wanting to have her over and get to know her and her family better and take her to your church, etc actually falls right along into that as well (as far as I understand it).

I do not say the above to judge, but rather because you may not be seeing it that way; it can be easy to not see things from inside as they evolve that others see from the outside.

In fact, the mere fact that the two have this friendship may be destroying either of their slim chances at meeting someone, as people are likely to either think they ARE courting or think it is inappropriate and judge them each harshly because of it (and you say her friends know and do not approve, which tells me it is spoken of and known within probably all of the close knit religious community in your entire region, among anyone who knows either of them).

 

[NHdisneylover]

So, working within your desire to allow your son to make his own choice for the most part, and not wanting to forbid something and end up with him sneaking around and lying (which I think is commendable, BTW) these are the options that I see.


1. Perhaps you and your DH would rather see your son courting someone so much older and end up marrying her once he is 19 or 20 (that seems to be a typical age in your faith) than see him dating a girl his own age who does not have the same convictions

If so, I think you need to be aware of what you are doing, how it looks, etc and open and honest about that with both your son and this woman )because, as I said above, so far as I can tell they ARE courting whether anyone is calling it that or not).

If you go this route and either does not want to be courting with the other, I think you need to explain that is what this is and limit their time together (as per below) and explain why you are limiting it.

2. If you want your son to only date/court within your faith, but also want that person to be about his age, I feel you need to do everything possible to give him that opportunity:

Try to curtail commentary or trips to WDW or other things that cause him to stand out at church as not of the same faith as everyone else there.

Get him to that church EVERY SINGLE WEEK, even though it is a long drive. If there are youth group meetings on other nights, or anything else at all he can participate in, commit to getting him there.

Also, explain flat out that he cannot be "courting" someone who is 28 if he is looking for someone his age and explain that it IS that whether he perceives it as such or not and then limit his time with his older friend to about once a month and on a family outing of some sort (so she becomes more of a family friend, and so he is compelled to fill that social gap by finding other friends to spend time with).

3. If you are okay with your son dating/courting outside of your faith, let him know that and even encourage it.

Have him join the youth group at your local church, orelse find a different congregation where that is okay for you and him. Get him out and among teens and make sure he knows you will not be upset if he asks a girl with different beliefs out.

Again, limit contact with the friend in the way I said above and for the same reasons.


Anyway, those are really the options that I see for you at this point. The hardest part is going to be being honest with yourselves about what you really want for your son within what is realistic in your situation and then putting it into practice.

Good luck.

 

[luvsJack]

I missed your question I apologize. Ds did not react in any way when I made the suggestion of her coming with us. Later he said he thought it would cheer her up to meet our church families.
Since we attend two churches, she will have more opportunities to meet men. Her church is very small and although similar to ours, her church is more older people and families with young children there is a gap where she should be. I do feel for her, it is difficult to be her age 28 and still find fundamentalist men who aren't already married.


We attend a non denominational (but with more baptist than anything else) "mega church" through the week and most Sundays because it is close and offers a lot (although this is the church I mentioned in a previous post where DS doesn't want to be involved in the youth group because the youth group teens are wild).

Two Sundays a month, we drive further away to a home church made up entirely of Gothard families, and I think there are a few young men there that would be very suitable for her.

It doesn't sound like your son thinks of her anything more than an older friend, then. Most 16 year old boys with romantic thoughts of someone would have been resentful at the mention of meeting men.

I have attended tiny little churches and understand sort of where she is coming from. We switched churches so that we could attend where there were people our age and children activities for dd and then again for a youth group that she would enjoy (and we love the church with the youth group too! so that helps)

NH may be right in that what you are planning is a bit like courtship with her and your son but the difference may come in the way you treat the relationship and the way you and your husband relate to her--maybe as she is a family friend or an "adopted" younger sibling for you, not just your son's friend.

 

[sk!mom]

I also want to point out that when I read what Gothard describes as courtship, that is pretty much exactly what is going on between this woman and your son. In fact, you and your husband wanting to have her over and get to know her and her family better and take her to your church, etc actually falls right along into that as well (as far as I understand it). I do not say the above to judge, but rather because you may not be seeing it that way; it can be easy to not see things from inside as they evolve that others see from the outside. In fact, the mere fact that the two have this friendship may be destroying either of their slim chances at meeting someone, as people are likely to either thinks they ARE courting or think it is inappropriate and judge them each harshly because of it (and you say her friends know and do not approve, which tells me it is spoken off and known within probably all of the close knit religious community in your entire region, among anyone who knows either of them).

Absolutely agree which is why after I googled the religious beliefs, I was surprised that any of this was allowed. Now that you have shared a bit of your beliefs, the situation seems so clear to me. Your 16 year old son is courting or being courted by a 28 year old. I would not be OK with us but I in no way share nor understand your beliefs.

 

[luvsJack]

I think ya'll may be missing where she said that they do some things that are not strictly within Gothard's Teachings.

The attend a different church part of the time, their teen goes to a Christian school and they went to WDW to name a few.

So her thinking and decisions may be based on other things than just that. And again, I would think (and I have not read as much as it seems some of you have) that if the young lady is a friend of the family, not just her son, then visiting their home and going to church would not be a "courtship" but a family friend being with the family.

A church we used to attend and still have ties to has a youth director that has the same views on courtship as what the OP's church teaches. Its a Baptist church but that is what he teaches the youth.

 

[kamik86]

I realize that 17 and 28 seems like a pretty big age difference but is it really? I mean what if they were 24 and 35? That doesn't really seem unreasonable.

I am someone sentive to this becasue although my age difference isn't as large I am almost 3 years younger then my DH. Many thought that was strange when they first found out (15 and 18 when we first started dating, 16 and 19 before most found out including my parents - I am young for my grade, he was held back a year in K due to speech issues... so only a year apart in school, making most people think we were closer in age.

When I think about some of people others I know are/were dating (someone with a shoddy legal history, someone with 3 kids from previous marriages he barely sees, someone that claims to be disabled and can't work but yet can do anything else he wants to etc) just having a 10 year age gap doesn't seem so bad.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I think ya'll may be missing where she said that they do some things that are not strictly within Gothard's Teachings.

The attend a different church part of the time, their teen goes to a Christian school and they went to WDW to name a few.

So her thinking and decisions may be based on other things than just that. And again, I would think (and I have not read as much as it seems some of you have) that if the young lady is a friend of the family, not just her son, then visiting their home and going to church would not be a "courtship" but a family friend being with the family.

A church we used to attend and still have ties to has a youth director that has the same views on courtship as what the OP's church teaches. Its a Baptist church but that is what he teaches the youth.

Did you read what I wrote?

I specifically talked about that they do some things that do not fall into the Gothard traditions, and how that could be making it HARDER on the son, as he is "too conservative" even for his classmates and the youth group at the one church but not enough for the group at the Gothard church.

I also specifically talked about, if they do not want this to truly be courting, then making the woman more a friend of the family, and not just the son'S friend--both to encourage the son to seek friendship (or more) elsewhere AND to change the perception of what is going on within the community (because as it stands now, it seems the perception would have to be either that they are courting or that something inappropriate is going on--either of which is going to ruin any chance either the woman or the son has of connecting with someone at church).

You may not agree with my (or others') take on it, but it is odd to say we are missing things we directly addressed.

 

[Gracie09]

I realize that 17 and 28 seems like a pretty big age difference but is it really? I mean what if they were 24 and 35? That doesn't really seem unreasonable. I am someone sentive to this becasue although my age difference isn't as large I am almost 3 years younger then my DH. Many thought that was strange when they first found out (15 and 18 when we first started dating, 16 and 19 before most found out including my parents - I am young for my grade, he was held back a year in K due to speech issues... so only a year apart in school, making most people think we were closer in age. When I think about some of people others I know are/were dating (someone with a shoddy legal history, someone with 3 kids from previous marriages he barely sees, someone that claims to be disabled and can't work but yet can do anything else he wants to etc) just having a 10 year age gap doesn't seem so bad.

Well for starters one is an adult and one still a child albeit a older child. Second they are in two completely different parts of life. One is just starting out, getting ready for college etc and the other is settled into a job, has their own place etc. a three year difference is completely different and the people are usually in the same area of their lives. Even a 24 and 35 year old could still be in the same part of their lives, after school, working etc.

 

[Gracie09]

Oh op I would tell this woman in no uncertain terms to stay away from your son, period.
Obviously after he turns 18 there is not much you can do but she needs to find friends her own age.

 

[Allison]

I realize that 17 and 28 seems like a pretty big age difference but is it really? I mean what if they were 24 and 35? That doesn't really seem unreasonable.

I am someone sentive to this becasue although my age difference isn't as large I am almost 3 years younger then my DH. Many thought that was strange when they first found out (15 and 18 when we first started dating, 16 and 19 before most found out including my parents - I am young for my grade, he was held back a year in K due to speech issues... so only a year apart in school, making most people think we were closer in age.

When I think about some of people others I know are/were dating (someone with a shoddy legal history, someone with 3 kids from previous marriages he barely sees, someone that claims to be disabled and can't work but yet can do anything else he wants to etc) just having a 10 year age gap doesn't seem so bad.

Not the same at all. There is a big difference between a 16 year old and a 26 year old.

And 3 years doesn't compare to this situation either.