WWYD? Concerned

[DWGal210]

OP, I would also consider taking this young woman "under your wing." It was very nice of you to offer to take her to your church and introduce her to people. She might also like going to eat with you, going to a coffee shop and talking, taking walks, etc.

From reading between the lines (and maybe I'm incorrectly assuming this), it doesn't sound like she has many avenues for social interaction. She might not have many friends. As another poster pointed out, at 28 years old in that community, she is very likely the only single woman she knows. As she's not able to live on her own, and with just a part-time job, she probably doesn't have a lot of chances to hang out with someone who's closer to her age. If I were her, I would feel very isolated.

I feel like there's a lot of social pressure in general to be married by a certain age, to have a family, etc - I can't imagine adding to that the idea that as a woman, your life was essentially on-hold until you got married.

I feel badly for this young woman. She might not think anything of it; that's the way she was raised, she doesn't know anything different. But as a single 31 year old woman, I cannot imagine having to live at home with my parents, in limbo so to speak, because I hadn't been chosen by a man.

 

[Wishing on a star]

She isn't doing that. And we do not know if the relationship is inappropriate at this point.

Then, we will have to agree to disagree....

 

[Laura66]

I know a family like this - she is a dear friend - but was called to this type of life in the past 10 years.
Frankly - I'm surprised, but thankful our friendship still endures!

 

[RadioNate]

I'm over quoting but I really wanted to highlight what I feel is spot on. This girl isn't typical. Maybe that is a better word than "normal/abnormal" because really there isn't anything wrong with her or her beliefs, they are just not typical.

I have a lot of friends who are 10 years younger AND 10 years older. I was a parent young. So when I was married, a lot of our "couple" friends were older. My ex was promoted young and his management peers were all about 10 years older with similar aged kids as ours. We did activities typical of families with young and school aged children.

Now that I'm divorced I don't really fit into that crowd. Most of my friends my age are married and just starting families. They have toddlers and preschool aged kids while mine are significantly older. It isn't that we NEVER see each other but many activities are things where the kids play and parents BBQ. In addition to my kids being older, there is the single/married 'thing.'

That leaves me with my friends who are 10 years younger. They are unmarried, childless and due to my time off we are mostly at the same career point. They go out and do things. Concerts, dinner, bars, sporting events so when my kids are with their dad this is the group I gravitate to.

I think this poster is pretty spot-on. When thinking of typical 16 and 28 year olds this seems VERY fishy however these teens are not typical. This woman has very much in common with a 16 year old.

Truthfully, I feel like they both are a little isolated. It can't be easy to feel like you belong and in a way, I'm glad they found someone they connect with.

I would absolutely be opening up the discussion about what is going on. Is he interested in courting her eventually? Is it something more sisterly? However, I'm not sure I'm ready to label her a pedophile who is out to corrupt the OPs son. Their religions beliefs and values absolutely play a significant part in the situation. And that's ok.

She is not a "normal" 28 year old. I hate to use the word abnormal because it has negative connotations, but really, I think here age is just a number. She is NOT a woman of the world who is a typical 28 year old. She still lives at home under her parent's rule at 28 years old. Who cares, even if she DOES have a relationship with this younger boy? They are on the same level in terms of life experiences, and they like each other. She doesn't have nefarious intent. Does a 28 year old in the Gothard system differ that much from a 20 year old? They are both stay at home daughters, living under the parents' rule. She has likely gotten very LITTLE life experience in the past 8 years.

In a typical situation, I would say keep a typical 28 year old away from my 16 year old. At 28, I was married, had a child, and working on my master's degree. I was responsible for a family. I had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, some of my friends lived alone, traveling and working as professionals. THEY had NOTHING in common with a 16 year old. At 28, this woman is living at home at her parent's home, held to strict rules and boundaries, and has never kissed a man. She has EVERYTHING in common with this 16 year old and I think that even if they courted, it wouldn't be a bad thing. She's not trying to get into his pants, and she's not a pedophile, even if they end up courting. She's relating to someone she can relate to, and those are not other "Typical" 20-somethings, it's a 16 year old boy. If you like your culture and your religion, really, I see nothing wrong with it.

I also think Hadley makes a great point and I'm happy that the OP understands and does not see it as "judgment" but an outside perspective of the situation.

If he isn't courting this woman or isn't interested in that eventually than I can see how it would appear to people not truly aware of the situation. He's caught between two worlds.

If he already feels like he has to 'prove himself' to Gothard families yet doesn't find the other families conservative enough I can see where he would absolutely want to spend time with ANYONE who accepts him for himself yet is still part of his faith. I'm not positive that gender is even a big deal here, that he would connect with anyone who accepted him and shared his belief system.

Thank you for taking my comments as intended and not being offended when I saw that issue.

Even though we have very different belief systems, I really feel for you being caught in this spot (as well as for your son). I can entirely imagine that you thought you were doing the best thing for all and would not have anticipated this. It is SO HARD as parents to anticipate how seemingly simple things will ripple into something much bigger down the road .

I do think it would be good to use those prior discussions with your son as a jumping off point now for this situation. I simply cannot imagine that spending so much time with his 28 year old friend will do anything other than make it even harder for him to "prove himself" to Gothard families. I think it is only right to stress that to him and make him very aware of it.

OP - I think you are on the right track. Open up the discussion. Even though I don't share your beliefs or know much about them, I'm actually surprisingly confident that you'll be lead to the right decision.

 

[FireDancer]

Someone else who was kept from learning the things relationship-wise you are supposed to learn in your teens while they were a teen.

I have never and will never understand these ultra-strict viewpoints that really have a chance to backfire and stunt the emotional growth of people. I really don't understand the sects (for lack of a better term) that shelter their children and young adults from other viewpoints. If you feel your viewpoint is right and the proper path or whatever wouldn't you trust your children to see all the alternatives and choose your way anyway? That is a general (your) and not directed at any particular poster.

As for the OP, I suspect if I came on here talking about a 16 year old girl I hang out with one on one and go to the movies with and appear to be dating the responses would be much less blase then some of the ones I'm seeing here and rightfully so.

 

[luvsJack]

Someone else who was kept from learning the things relationship-wise you are supposed to learn in your teens while they were a teen.

I have never and will never understand these ultra-strict viewpoints that really have a chance to backfire and stunt the emotional growth of people. I really don't understand the sects (for lack of a better term) that shelter their children and young adults from other viewpoints. If you feel your viewpoint is right and the proper path or whatever wouldn't you trust your children to see all the alternatives and choose your way anyway? That is a general (your) and not directed at any particular poster.

As for the OP, I suspect if I came on here talking about a 16 year old girl I hang out with one on one and go to the movies with and appear to be dating the responses would be much less blase then some of the ones I'm seeing here and rightfully so.

To be fair, her son has had the ability to see other viewpoints. The church they attend at least half the time is non-denominational. Her son has chosen to live by the more conservative teachings.

It isn't that they are trying to shelter anyone, its what their faith teaches them.

 

[DWGal210]

To be fair, her son has had the ability to see other viewpoints. The church they attend at least half the time is non-denominational. Her son has chosen to live by the more conservative teachings.

It isn't that they are trying to shelter anyone, its what their faith teaches them.

I agree to a point, luvsJack, but I also see what FireDancer is saying. (Without getting points....) From my perspective, some faiths operate under the premise that you wouldn't make the "right" decisions and choices without many rules and regulations in place. I won't get into specific examples but you can think of a few. That's where the idea of "sheltering" comes in, not allowing your children, husband, wife etc to do or see certain things because it would surely lead them "astray."

But yes, you're right, it sounds from the OPs posts that they have not mandated a certain life for their son, it is his choice.

 

[NHdisneylover]

To be fair, her son has had the ability to see other viewpoints. The church they attend at least half the time is non-denominational. Her son has chosen to live by the more conservative teachings.

It isn't that they are trying to shelter anyone, its what their faith teaches them.

On the other hand, even those various views the OP's son is exposed to are all what most would consider to be very conservative Christian views--just not all the way as far over as only Gothard.

It does not sound like he has spent much time with typical, public school, various religious beliefs (and non beliefs) teens, and what time he has spent with such people he has been encouraged to see as a chance to spread the gospel instead of to get to know them. So kind of yes and kind of no on that point.

But, I actually thought Firedancer was talking more about the 28 year old who many of us now agree is emotionally in the same place as a 16 year old. I thought he was sort of referring to a DIS poster who was also very sheltered and now struggles to have a relationship with someone her age (or at all). Maybe I am reading too much between the lines though.

 

[luvsJack]

On the other hand, even those various views the OP's son is exposed to are all what most would consider to be very conservative Christian views--just not all the way as far over as only Gothard.

It does not sound like he has spent much time with typical, public school, various religious beliefs (and non beliefs) teens, and what time he has spent with such people he has been encouraged to see as a chance to spread the gospel instead of to get to know them. So kind of yes and kind of no on that point.

But, I actually thought Firedancer was talking more about the 28 year old who many of us now agree is emotionally in the same place as a 16 year old. I thought he was sort of referring to a DIS poster who was also very sheltered and now struggles to have a relationship with someone her age (or at all). Maybe I am reading too much between the lines though.

Yeah, he has referred to her before. And you are right, he may have been referring to the 28 year old.

The OP described their other church as a "mega-church" that is non-denominational but leaning toward Baptist, which describes our church to a "t" and I would be surprised if any one called it very conservative as compared to the OP's home church. The one she attends may be different but going by her son's reluctance to join the youth group, I think that it is very similar.

It just sounded to me as though the OP's son has made his own choice here. The 28 year old, maybe not so much. And I can see where FD is coming from on that. Its better to let them see the choices and make up their own minds which way to go but then if you are strong in your beliefs it can be very hard to do that.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Yeah, he has referred to her before. And you are right, he may have been referring to the 28 year old.

The OP described their other church as a "mega-church" that is non-denominational but leaning toward Baptist, which describes our church to a "t" and I would be surprised if any one called it very conservative as compared to the OP's home church. The one she attends may be different but going by her son's reluctance to join the youth group, I think that it is very similar.

It just sounded to me as though the OP's son has made his own choice here. The 28 year old, maybe not so much. And I can see where FD is coming from on that. Its better to let them see the choices and make up their own minds which way to go but then if you are strong in your beliefs it can be very hard to do that.

I agree that it does sound like the OPs son has largely made his own choices (but all still within a fully Christian world influence and example for his life), whereas the woman appears to not have had much chance for that (other than being allowed to attend a small Christian college, which even that sounds like more than most women in that belief system are allowed).

I was thinking "very conservative" compared to main stream US in general--clearly the mega church is very liberal compared to the Gothards (thus the trapped between two worlds issue).

If I recall correctly, while your daughter is very strong in her faith, she also attends public school and does activities with kids of all faiths (I want to say choir?) so I think she has MORE of a choice than the OPs son, who has more than the 28 year old. It is kind of a continuum I guess.

 

[FireDancer]

To be fair, her son has had the ability to see other viewpoints. The church they attend at least half the time is non-denominational. Her son has chosen to live by the more conservative teachings.

It isn't that they are trying to shelter anyone, its what their faith teaches them.

I didn't really direct that at the OP, it just prompted the response. If anything it is more about this girl and her stunted social growth then the OP's son.

It is more a general thing I've noticed about these religions that go out of their way to sanitize contradictory view points. As an example, I would say if it is a general practice that women can't leave the house until they are married that is pretty sheltered and not really giving them the tools to choose their own path with any real independence.

But, I actually thought Firedancer was talking more about the 28 year old who many of us now agree is emotionally in the same place as a 16 year old. I thought he was sort of referring to a DIS poster who was also very sheltered and now struggles to have a relationship with someone her age (or at all). Maybe I am reading too much between the lines though.

I'm touching my nose and pointing at you. There was just a thread last week about teens and dating and I said very much the same thing. Teens should figure out teen stuff while they are teens. It is painfully obvious when someone's growth is stunted socially and that is even more true in our more socially connected world.

ETA: I grew up with a religious mother. Not over the top by any means but I'd say more religious then average. She was baptist but sent us to a Catholic school and that school was very open. We had not only non-Catholics there but non-Christians as well. She encouraged us to question religion and come to our own conclusion. I think that is a much better way to introduce your children to religion then mandating they follow the same path you did or shelter them from other view points. I'm not saying the OP is, she doesn't sound like she it. It is more about the girl and others in similar situations to her's.

 

[luvsJack]

I agree that it does sound like the OPs son has largely made his own choices (but all still within a fully Christian world influence and example for his life), whereas the woman appears to not have had much chance for that (other than being allowed to attend a small Christian college, which even that sounds like more than most women in that belief system are allowed).

I was thinking "very conservative" compared to main stream US in general--clearly the mega church is very liberal compared to the Gothards (thus the trapped between two worlds issue).

If I recall correctly, while your daughter is very strong in her faith, she also attends public school and does activities with kids of all faiths (I want to say choir?) so I think she has MORE of a choice than the OPs son, who has more than the 28 year old. It is kind of a continuum I guess.

Ok, I see what you are saying. And I see what FD is saying. By being exposed to other viewpoints they have the chance to truly make the choice for themselves.

 

[DWGal210]

Ok, I see what you are saying. And I see what FD is saying. By being exposed to other viewpoints they have the chance to truly make the choice for themselves.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Ok, I see what you are saying. And I see what FD is saying. By being exposed to other viewpoints they have the chance to truly make the choice for themselves.

From everything I have seen from you, you have done just that with your kids, and the OP has done that much more than others in her religion has that is for sure

 

[FireDancer]

Ok, I see what you are saying. And I see what FD is saying. By being exposed to other viewpoints they have the chance to truly make the choice for themselves.

Exactly.

 

[luvsJack]

Look at us! Getting along and all! and with religion being such a part of the discussion too!!!

 

[NHdisneylover]

Look at us! Getting along and all! and with religion being such a part of the discussion too!!!

We should all sing a rousing chorus of Kumbaya

I do love how respectful this thread has stayed overall, way to go DISsers

 

[DWGal210]

Look at us! Getting along and all! and with religion being such a part of the discussion too!!!

It's a Christmas miracle.

But seriously, I love reading and participating in threads like this - - it shows that some/many of us can handle mature, adult discussion about sensitive topics without descending into madness. Yay on us!

 

[Wishing on a star]

I haven't been following the latest comments....

I do know that the OP more recently posted that her son was now very much at odds with her/his family, and their religious viewpoints, while this woman seems very, very, strict and controlled.

Our son is so much MORE steadfast in his decision of Gothard teachings than we are and will almost certainly want to marry a Gothard girl. And now that he is reaching a courting age, he has told us - with some resentment- that he is going to have to work so much harder to prove himself to the family of a Gothard girl ... So now we are in the middle of that and are going to have to bear his resentment that he will have to try harder to prove himself to families.

I am not quite sure whether this woman meets the criteria to acceptable as a 'Gothard Girl' or not.
But, it sounds like she is much closer than other girls he has had the opportunity to meet.
He seems happy with their 'religious connection'.
While becoming less so with his mother/family.

If it has not been discussed that this adult woman's influence could be a big factor in this, and the fact that this seems to have become an issue between this 14-15-16 year old child and his mother and family, then I think something major is being missed here.

 

[mousears123]

I haven't been following the latest comments....

I do know that the OP more recently posted that her son was now very much at odds with her/his family, and their religious viewpoints, while this woman seems very, very, strict and controlled.


I am not quite sure whether this woman meets the criteria to acceptable as a 'Gothard Girl' or not.
But, it sounds like she is much closer than other girls he has had the opportunity to meet.
He seems happy with their 'religious connection'.
While becoming less so with his mother/family.

If it has not been discussed that this adult woman's influence could be a big factor in this, and the fact that this seems to have become an issue between this 14-15-16 year old child and his mother and family, then I think something major is being missed here.

I would not attribute his Gothardism to her, actually. Since he was about 11-12 he has been very much a Gothardite. He has always been religious but at that point seemed to "make a decision" in his spiritual life. I will say it is a bit odd to have your child become more strict about their convictions than their parent is! He, along with a group of other boys, back when they were 11-12 all began saving money towards the purchases of their own homes once they became adults. A big thing in Gothard culture is that you should be able to buy your first home (or build) with absolutely no debt. Boys are encouraged to start working toard this goal when they are young. The point of it is that when you marry, you need to have an already prepared house to give to your bride.
I would also not say he is at odds with us. There IS a spirit of resentment there, but I do not think it is unfounded- the fact is, due to our choices, he WILL have a harder time being approved of by a Gothard girls' family due to our less strict upbringing.
We are talking through this.
He is very repentent of the resentful attitude, he knows that attidtude is not what it should be, but he is having a hard time with quelling it.
We are also communicating better to try to do what we need to do to help him. As he is fast approaching the courting age, if he wishes to stay in the Gothard belief system, he will need to make some decisions about his future, have an internship, train for a business, etc. He will also have to have a house of his own ready before he can marry.
So all in all these decisions were made a few years before he ever met the young lady in question.
If he had only recently made these decisions, then yes, I would question what amount of influence she had over him. Not that she is a bad influence, but simply the AMOUNT of influence.
I do not think it is a bad influence neccessarily- I wouldn't say if she had influenced him toward Gothardism that that was bad. We are proud of his commitment, although it is a little different than how we raised him, we feel he is just showing that he is more faithful than we were at that age.