WWYD? Concerned

[lizzi6692]

OP, and everyone else:

How would you feel if this were your 16 year old daughter and a 28 year old man?

I know my answer won't be the popular one but I would react the same way. I would want to be in the loop about what is going on but I would not prevent them from seeing each other even if it were a romantic relationship. I would want to meet them but having been in that exact situation myself as well as having bad experiences prior to the one that worked out I consider myself a good judge of character and know the warning signs to look for. And I don't consider age a warning sign in and of itself.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I know my answer won't be the popular one but I would react the same way. I would want to be in the loop about what is going on but I would not prevent them from seeing each other even if it were a romantic relationship. I would want to meet them but having been in that exact situation myself as well as having bad experiences prior to the one that worked out I consider myself a good judge of character and know the warning signs to look for. And I don't consider age a warning sign in and of itself.

I think pretty much this (my DD is 17)

I tend to think my DD is smart and capable of choosing her own friends and even love interests. I would not be thrilled with a big age gap (okay, I would likely be worried sick) and I would discuss my concerns with her and possibly limit contact to only at our house or somewhere with the family (but realistically, probably not, it is not like I am going to monitor everywhere she goes or could have any say in who else might go to the library game night, etc anyway), but short of an abusive relationship I do not think I would ever try to tell either of my children that they could not be involved with someone.

 

[roseaster]

So, you would both be okay with your 16 year old daughter dating their freshman history teacher, or hockey coach, or music teacher?

No one would think that it was totally inappropriate if an adult, who was in a position of authority over your minor child started sending personal emails and texts to your child and then going out on dates with them?

Everyone is muddying the water a lot with religious beliefs and gender, but the truth of the matter is that this was a grown woman, who was in a position of authority over a minor child who began a personal relationship with him. It's not appropriate.

These two want to keep seeing each other. Of course, since they have had a 2.5 year personal relationship and have been dating for at least 6 months, she knows this boy's parent's belief system and knows what to say and not to say and how to act in front of them. As does the son.

 

[ronandannette]

Re-posted yesterday's post. Above, post 191. To reiterate that she is not the one who has been leading him spiritually. He made decisions in the couple years prior to meeting her. I would definitely have a real problem if I thought she was leading him spiritually. They can be close due to sharing their faith but in Gothardism (and I'm sorry if this is offensive to some) women are not meant to be spiritual leaders in relationships. I'm sorry to be so blunt and hope others are not hurt by this.

Please re-read my post a little more carefully. The fact that adherents to Gothardism (regardless of their ages) would expect THE MALE to be the leader in any relationship is exactly what I was expressing.

 

[luvsJack]

So, you would both be okay with your 16 year old daughter dating their freshman history teacher, or hockey coach, or music teacher?

No one would think that it was totally inappropriate if an adult, who was in a position of authority over your minor child started sending personal emails and texts to your child and then going out on dates with them?

Everyone is muddying the water a lot with religious beliefs and gender, but the truth of the matter is that this was a grown woman, who was in a position of authority over a minor child who began a personal relationship with him. It's not appropriate.

These two want to keep seeing each other. Of course, since they have had a 2.5 year personal relationship and have been dating for at least 6 months, she knows this boy's parent's belief system and knows what to say and not to say and how to act in front of them. As does the son.

Actually dd has male teachers that are younger than this woman. And some are single. Not that I want her dating any of them. That position of authority that a teacher has is the difference in that situation.

I look at this sort of like I would look at it if it was our church's youth director. He is in his 20's and single. Now I said before he wouldn't put himself in that kind of situation just to make sure there were no accusations. But, IF dd and he had struck a friendship and were texting and I had already confirmed that it was mostly just chit chat and IF they met for lunch or an outing during the week; I would be concerned and I would confirm that it was innocent and simply a friendship. But, I wouldn't make them end the friendship.

DD has brothers the age of this woman and I know how much she values having them to go to about stuff (like boy problems) that she wants a different perspective on than mine and dh's and from her teen friends.

 

[LisaR]

So, you would both be okay with your 16 year old daughter dating their freshman history teacher, or hockey coach, or music teacher?

No one would think that it was totally inappropriate if an adult, who was in a position of authority over your minor child started sending personal emails and texts to your child and then going out on dates with them?

Everyone is muddying the water a lot with religious beliefs and gender, but the truth of the matter is that this was a grown woman, who was in a position of authority over a minor child who began a personal relationship with him. It's not appropriate.

These two want to keep seeing each other. Of course, since they have had a 2.5 year personal relationship and have been dating for at least 6 months, she knows this boy's parent's belief system and knows what to say and not to say and how to act in front of them. As does the son.

I can only speak for myself, but I would not allow (and yes, I used the word allow) my 16 y/o son OR daughter to go to lunch, museums, or text their history teacher, hockey coach, or music teacher. However, I do not think this situation is the same. A history teacher is someone with a life; they have been to college, they likely live on their own, they have had life experiences. I can't even begin to compare a professional to a 28 y/o who lives such a restricted life. While I would advise the OP'er to make sure she doesn't give her 16 y/o unlimited, unrestricted access to this female, I wouldn't be anywhere near as concerned with her as I would be with a teacher or a coach.

Here's what I have come to realize about life: there is more than one way to live it. What I think is appropriate, acceptable, crazy, or disgusting, someone else will surely feel the opposite. There are religions and lifestyles out there that I can't even begin to understand or relate to, but that doesn't make them wrong. While a 16 y/o spending time with a 28 y/o in my little corner of life is completely unacceptable, I can see how it would be looked upon in a different light by those with different lifestyles. My 16 y/o son is not anxious to build his own home, find an internship that will train him for his future, and marry at a young age. The only thing he thought about today was getting to the next level of the latest video game he is playing!

 

[roseaster]

Actually dd has male teachers that are younger than this woman. And some are single. Not that I want her dating any of them. That position of authority that a teacher has is the difference in that situation.

I look at this sort of like I would look at it if it was our church's youth director. He is in his 20's and single. Now I said before he wouldn't put himself in that kind of situation just to make sure there were no accusations. But, IF dd and he had struck a friendship and were texting and I had already confirmed that it was mostly just chit chat and IF they met for lunch or an outing during the week; I would be concerned and I would confirm that it was innocent and simply a friendship. But, I wouldn't make them end the friendship.

DD has brothers the age of this woman and I know how much she values having them to go to about stuff (like boy problems) that she wants a different perspective on than mine and dh's and from her teen friends.

It's exactly the same. The woman was his supervisor in a volunteer organization. She was in a position of authority, religious views not withstanding, she is an adult, he is a child. 16 is not grown. 16 year old make stupid choices all time. 16 year olds are not known for being great judges of character. Regardless of whether there is any actual physical contact here, it is an inappropriate relationship. There are emotions involved here, and the OP saying he wanted her to meet the woman to "see how great she is" shows that clearly. This is not a statement that teen boys make when introducing friends to their family.

Of course, they are going to say they are just friends, they want to keep seeing one another.

 

[mousears123]

Please re-read my post a little more carefully. The fact that adherents to Gothardism (regardless of their ages) would expect THE MALE to be the leader in any relationship is exactly what I was expressing.

I did understand what you meant, but my post did not come across the way I intended. I apologize. I completely agree.

It is possible that regardless of their ages, both of them see THE BOY as the "authority and leader" in the relationship. That dramatically shifts the balance of power doesn't it? Now, of course, who among us would want to be "led" by and submitted to a child? Certainly not me but then I'm not a Gothardite. It would be consistent with their beliefs though (and definitely would be the expectation of the OP's DS for any relationship he would want to have).

I think your post above is perhaps the most insightful post in this entire thread- it is quite true what you said. A male person in adolescence is definitely considered the spiritual leader, even when with an adult woman. It certainly does affect the balance of power. Girls who are old enough to babysit younger siblings, are encouraged to try to honor their little brothers by allowing them to make more decisions so that their future abilities to show leadership as a man won't be damaged.
That's also why this isn't as easy situation. She is older so there is "power" on her side , but , at the same time, simply by virtue of being male he has some "power" because in a relationship between the two of them he would certainly be expected to be the leader, and she with her Gothard background would expect to defer decisions to him/look to him for counsel (IF they were in a relationship).

 

[ronandannette]

I did understand what you meant, but my post did not come across the way I intended. I apologize. I completely agree.



I think your post above is perhaps the most insightful post in this entire thread- it is quite true what you said. A male person in adolescence is definitely considered the spiritual leader, even when with an adult woman. It certainly does affect the balance of power. Girls who are old enough to babysit younger siblings, are encouraged to try to honor their little brothers by allowing them to make more decisions so that their future abilities to show leadership as a man won't be damaged.
That's also why this isn't as easy situation. She is older so there is "power" on her side , but , at the same time, simply by virtue of being male he has some "power" because in a relationship between the two of them he would certainly be expected to be the leader, and she with her Gothard background would expect to defer decisions to him/look to him for counsel (IF they were in a relationship).

Sorry, I admit that we must have missed each other on what you were trying to express. This was not a "brilliant insight" on my part; I'm a devout, conservative Christian and I have a similar understanding of God's order of things albeit applied much less dogmatically than Gothard.

 

[mousears123]

Sorry, I admit that we must have missed each other on what you were trying to express. This was not a "brilliant insight" on my part; I'm a devout, conservative Christian and I have a similar understanding of God's order of things albeit applied much less dogmatically than Gothard.

Thank you. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
I appreciate EVERYONES thoughts on the matter and helping us to reach some sort of conclusion on what we should be doing. It is good to hear various opinions and ideas from people who have all different sorts of backgrounds, it gives me lots of different perspectives to look at.
But, I especially appreciate your advice and thoughts since you really understand our unique issues, trying to work within the framework of our beliefs. It's good to know there is someone out there on disboards who has some of the same convictions we have and can really understand how we feel.

 

[ronandannette]

Thank you. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
I appreciate EVERYONES thoughts on the matter and helping us to reach some sort of conclusion on what we should be doing. It is good to hear various opinions and ideas from people who have all different sorts of backgrounds, it gives me lots of different perspectives to look at.
But, I especially appreciate your advice and thoughts since you really understand our unique issues, trying to work within the framework of our beliefs. It's good to know there is someone out there on disboards who has some of the same convictions we have and can really understand how we feel.

Now for some real fun lets go over and check out the "10 Things Every Married Woman Should Know" thread! I'm just now recovering from the one about mission trips to England!

 

[mousears123]

[/COLOR][/B]

Now for some real fun lets go over and check out the "10 Things Every Married Woman Should Know" thread! I'm just now recovering from the one about mission trips to England!

I saw the title of that thread and thought "wow, I have a lot of advice for women in marriage" and then I thought better of it. I'll stay out of that thread! There is a reason why I never discuss our religion here under my correct username.

 

[NHdisneylover]

So, you would both be okay with your 16 year old daughter dating their freshman history teacher, or hockey coach, or music teacher?

No one would think that it was totally inappropriate if an adult, who was in a position of authority over your minor child started sending personal emails and texts to your child and then going out on dates with them?

Everyone is muddying the water a lot with religious beliefs and gender, but the truth of the matter is that this was a grown woman, who was in a position of authority over a minor child who began a personal relationship with him. It's not appropriate.

These two want to keep seeing each other. Of course, since they have had a 2.5 year personal relationship and have been dating for at least 6 months, she knows this boy's parent's belief system and knows what to say and not to say and how to act in front of them. As does the son.

I would not "be okay" with it, per se, regardless of what the older person does. But I would not freak out and ban it outright either.

I also think there is a HUGE difference between a current, and long term (full year) teacher or coach and someone who was a supervisor of a volunteer program that lasted a few weeks two years ago, as far as position of authority is concerned.

Under the statutory rape laws posted upthread, I think it would be easy to convict a history teacher sleeping with one of their teen students, but next to impossible to convict a supervisor of a volunteer program that began sleeping with someone who had been in the program fora few weeks, 2 years after the program's end.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I don't think I have ever heard of statutory rape laws that are contingent on a person's job or position of authority.

They are usually based on an 'age of consent' and often the difference in ages is a part of the law as well.

Again, we are not assuming that there is any physical activity going on... consentual or statutory.

And, that doesn't matter IMHO, this is still an inappropriate relationship, especially given that this relationship began and existed when the minor was young. Well before 15 or 16.

 

[pryncess527]

It's exactly the same. The woman was his supervisor in a volunteer organization. She was in a position of authority, religious views not withstanding, she is an adult, he is a child. 16 is not grown. 16 year old make stupid choices all time. 16 year olds are not known for being great judges of character. Regardless of whether there is any actual physical contact here, it is an inappropriate relationship. There are emotions involved here, and the OP saying he wanted her to meet the woman to "see how great she is" shows that clearly. This is not a statement that teen boys make when introducing friends to their family.

Of course, they are going to say they are just friends, they want to keep seeing one another.

They met when she was in a position of authority. They did not begin to see each other outside of the volunteer setting until she was no longer his supervisor, as I understood the post.

I had a friend in HS who started dating one of our teachers about a week after we graduated high school. They later got married and had children. The teacher was not subject to any disciplinary action because the relationship did not begin until after the student graduated. I see this as much the same thing. I'm not sure I'd be okay with it, but I do NOT think it is analogous to a situation where a student dates a person who is currently their teacher, as you have described.

 

[TinkerBelled]

I don't think I have ever heard of statutory rape laws that are contingent on a person's job or position of authority.

They are usually based on an 'age of consent' and often the difference in ages is a part of the law as well.

Again, we are not assuming that there is any physical activity going on... consentual or statutory.

And, that doesn't matter IMHO, this is still an inappropriate relationship, especially given that this relationship began and existed when the minor was young. Well before 15 or 16.

Nope, lots of laws are built on authority, which is why Romeo and Juliet laws don't apply if one of the people is a teacher/coach/guardian.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I don't think I have ever heard of statutory rape laws that are contingent on a person's job or position of authority.

They are usually based on an 'age of consent' and often the difference in ages is a part of the law as well.

Again, we are not assuming that there is any physical activity going on... consentual or statutory.

And, that doesn't matter IMHO, this is still an inappropriate relationship, especially given that this relationship began and existed when the minor was young. Well before 15 or 16.

I thought in the laws posting earlier the age of consent was 16 but that there were some cases in which under 18 was still not legal if the minor was under the direct supervision of the person over 18, but in all honesty I am too tired to go back and look now (LONG day).

In Germany, the age of consent is 14. There IS a provision that if the other person is over 18 and a direct superior (teacher or boss) there can possibly be legal trouble.


I agree that there is not any indication that in THIS case, anyone is having sex (or even kissing) but I was referring to the hypothetical situation that roseaster posted and then trying to link it back to some of the real situations in the thread

 

[Wishing on a star]

Yes, there may be provisions for these cases, which would ADD to the basic statutory rape laws...

But, I think that I could venture to say that, in most every state in the US statutory rape laws apply, based on age of consent, and based on age-difference.
If there were states where statutory laws apply only to 'position of authority', that would be an interesting fact to know. Link, anyone?

It looks like this one poster's past experiences in another country and culture have affected their views...

I feel the same way about an age of consent at 14 as I do about any inappropriate relationship. For example, some religions and cultures would encourage, condone, or even expect 13-14 year old girls to be 'married off'..... In some cultures women and children are little more than 'property' to be controlled and harshly physically abused.

I guess I will admit here that I see a real problem when religion and/or culture, of any kind, are used to justify inappropriate situations.

My views are not changing.

Anyhow, I don't think anybody is assuming that there has been any violation of Statutory Rape laws in this case.
But, yes, it does matter to me that this relationship began when the minor was well below any age of consent.

 

[luvsJack]

It's exactly the same. The woman was his supervisor in a volunteer organization. She was in a position of authority, religious views not withstanding, she is an adult, he is a child. 16 is not grown. 16 year old make stupid choices all time. 16 year olds are not known for being great judges of character. Regardless of whether there is any actual physical contact here, it is an inappropriate relationship. There are emotions involved here, and the OP saying he wanted her to meet the woman to "see how great she is" shows that clearly. This is not a statement that teen boys make when introducing friends to their family.

Of course, they are going to say they are just friends, they want to keep seeing one another.

No, I agree with Hadley that it is not the same. A teacher that my dd sees every day for 4 years, in a position of authority and a volunteer supervisor for two weeks--huge difference there.

Why would that not be something a 16 year old would say?

He may in fact be infatuated with the woman, but how about giving her some credit on self control and sense? She may value his friendship and yet know enough to keep in at arm's length.

Why assume the woman is after this kid?

 

[Wishing on a star]

That's just it, LuvsJack....

The affect of an inappropriate relationship on a 14-15-16 year old minor is the same, whether or not she is 'after him'.

That makes absolutely no difference in my views of the situation.

I agree with roseaster.