Why wasn't the Monorail system ever expanded?

[AllieV]

With all of Disney's money, I'm sure there is a very logical reason they never extended the Monorail past the MK resorts. Even if they needed to recoup costs of building new places, you'd think they'd eventually have the $ to do it, especially with the cost of fuel.

p.s. did a quick search for a discussion of this but didn't find anything too specific. sorry for any repeats.

 

[sam_gordon]

Money.

I don't think the return on investment is good enough.

 

[Jestocost]

Estimates for the capital cost of monorail construction are in the range of $100 million per mile. Given that and that monorail transportation is much less flexible than bus transportation, among other reasons, Disney never has expanded the monorail system nor would I expect them to.

In addition, the current monorail system would appear to be in dire need of a significant refurbishment. It will be interesting to see how (or if?) Disney approaches that.

 

[Missytara]

Considering the cost of the monorail, it isn't cost effective.

Las Vegas wanted to begin a Phase II section in 2005 of their monorail system. At that time, the 2.3 mile rail was estimated at $400 million. Never happened.

They stuck with the original section they had, and despite the fact they collect money from running the monorail system, they had to file for bankruptcy in 2010.

In addition:

They can be unreliable.
You take the entire loop out of service if one gets stuck.
You cannot dispatch another monorail while the track is blocked with the unit that is down.

With buses, you can do all of the above with very little disruptions. Overall, building roads and running buses is a much cheaper option.

 

[LidoDeck]

It is really unfortunate that the monorail isn't more cost effective because it certainly is more convenient than bus transportation.

 

[Missytara]

It is really unfortunate that the monorail isn't more cost effective because it certainly is more convenient than bus transportation.

How so????

What do you do when the monorail breaks down in the middle of the loop? Happens often. I have sat up to a half an hour waiting on a disabled monorail. Unless it gets stuck in the station, you are out of luck.

If the bus breaks down, they just dispatch another bus or divert a "dead-head" bus your way, and in a few minutes you are on your way.

 

[puffkin]

It is really unfortunate that the monorail isn't more cost effective because it certainly is more convenient than bus transportation.

Until one gets stuck! We sat on one over an hour last December near the Grand Floridian because the one in front of us was stuck and ours wasn't doing much better (due to the cold weather).

The monorails are great when they work perfectly, but that seems to be less and less now a days.

 

[Lewisc]

It is really unfortunate that the monorail isn't more cost effective because it certainly is more convenient than bus transportation.

Not really. One bus gets you from your resort, large resorts have multiple bus stops, directly to a theme park. Many of the suggested rail solutions have guests taking a bus to the monorail stop and having to change trains.

Imagine park opening. The monorail will fill up at the first resort on the loop. Several times. The train will have to skip resorts.

 

[joelkfla]

Walt Disney was a visionary. He wanted Disney World to be a model for future communities, and the monorail fit right in with that. He was also a lover of all forms of rail transportation, and he was willing to put up the money to build something he believed in, even when every one else told him it would never work.

When Walt died, his brother Roy came out of retirement to see Walt's vision thru to fruition.

EPCOT Center is nothing like what Walt envisioned, but still, it was sort of a tribute to Walt, and many in the company at the time were still inspired by Walt's vision -- so the monorail extension went forward.

By the time Disney-MGM Studios was built, Eisner was in control. The company was focused on the bottom line -- which was not entirely Eisner's fault; it was (and still is) largely due to the Wall Street environment. As has been said by pp's, monorails are expensive, and it's hard to make a case that they improve the bottom line.

 

[dissybroad]

Oh nooooo! You guys are scaring me, I hope they never retire the monorail.

 

[DCTooTall]

Oh nooooo! You guys are scaring me, I hope they never retire the monorail.

I really doubt they'll ever retire the Monorail fully at WDW. At this point it is very symbolic of Disney since many people automatically think of Disney whenever they see a monorail (at least, in this country).... so from a marketting standpoint, it serves a purpose.


Then you have the fact that beyond the Monorail, there really isn't a GOOD way they could efficiently move the masses of people from the TTC parking to the front of the Magic Kingdom. The Ferry boats would not be able to scale up to the needed level if you eliminated the monorail, and I doubt the bus stops in front of the MK could handle the mass of the parking lot crowds on top of the on-site resort crowds. With a simple loop, the Monorails serve the needs very well.....beyond the problems they are starting to run into with reliability. (Which can be blamed in large part due to the current train age, current demands put on them due to longer hours during peak seasons, maintenance, and the severe cold that the area's gotten the past couple years.).


The other major issue that has worked against a Monorail system expansion was the guest's perceived ease of use. Unlike the bus system which allows for easy A-to-B routing for the guest, The monorail system would have to be in a set loop. Switching a monorail train from one track to another is a very time consuming and involved process (Much more so than a "regular" rail setup). This would force a situation where you either have a very long loop that is more vulnerable to being put out of service by a single train having an issue, Or you would need to have multiple shorter loops to stations where guests could switch trains..... which could confuse guests (which train do I need?) or annoy them at the perceived complication of just getting from their resort to the park.

Because of those 2 issues, the monorail just wasn't practical for further expansion as the property grew to it's current layout/proportions.

 

[DC7800]

The reason the monorail has not been expanded since 1982 comes down to the almighty dollar - buses are cheaper and do not require the large up-front capital investment necessary to expand the monorail. Other factors mentioned are primarily spin, not so much because buses are an inappropriate transportation mode, but because Disney has become far too overreliant on buses, having failed to make appropriate investments in monorail or other transportation infrastructure. Buses will always have a place in Walt Disney World, but they should never have been the only solution.

You take the entire loop out of service if one gets stuck.
You cannot dispatch another monorail while the track is blocked with the unit that is down.

Actually, this is false. If one train breaks down on the Epcot beam, for instance, the other three trains can run back and forth in 'shuttle' mode between the two stations. That doesn't help the people on the disabled monorail, but reliability has more to do with the design and maintenance of the trains. There is nothing about a monorail that makes it necessairily any more or less reliable than any other mode of transportation.

Many of the suggested rail solutions have guests taking a bus to the monorail stop and having to change trains.

Again, buses should properly remain a part of WDW's transportation system even if the monorail were greatly expanded, but there is no reason to make people change trains. A monorail can make a direct, one-seat trip from resort to theme park (or other destination, such as the Marketplace) just as easily as a bus.

The monorail system would have to be in a set loop

There is no reason a monorail has to be operated in a loop like a trainset around the Christmas tree, nor does switching beams necessairily have to be a time consuming, cumbersome process (switching would ideally be minimized anyway in a well designed network). A 'looped' system I probably wouldn't call impractical, but it would be very inefficient. Indeed, operating an expanded WDW monorail system more like a real railroad has enormous advantages.

That said. monorail expansion isn't happening. Disney is too cheap.

 

[AllieV]

I was thinking more of a hub and spoke system as opposed to a large loop that goes from resort to resort. Or maybe dedicated a loop/oval for each resort to each park.

I suppose it would work better if the track wasn't heavy blocks of cement and the trains could change tracks easier. Then it could branch out from a resort and go to other parks.

$100 million per mile? Pfft. Pocket change.

 

[DebbieB]

Hate to say it, but WDW is not the center of Disney's universe. They own ABC, movie studios, home entertainment. I'm sure they think money can be spent wiser elsewhere. Will spending hundreds of millions if not billions on a monorail expansion return that money in additional guest spending? Probably not.

 

[waldiddy]

Hate to say it, but WDW is not the center of Disney's universe. They own ABC, movie studios, home entertainment. I'm sure they think money can be spent wiser elsewhere. Will spending hundreds of millions if not billions on a monorail expansion return that money in additional guest spending? Probably not.

Well, expanding the monorail could return the money if fuel keeps getting more expensive. It's not likely that gas/diesel would skyrocket high enough to make expanding the monorail a wise move financially, but it's possible. But, if fuel got that expensive, moving crowds wouldn't be much of an issue anymore, since few would be able to afford travel in such an environment.

Then again, maybe their buses are already electric or hybrid ... I dunno. It would be really nice though if there was another transportation option instead of buses for most guests. The ferries are pretty cool, but yeah, the monorail is so slick.

The only other way I can think of that monorail construction would be feasible is if Disney began charging a fee for its use. But, if that fee were dedicated to expansion and to a rail connecting them to the airport, well ... maybe such a fee wouldn't be too obnoxious.

 

[joelkfla]

A monorail can make a direct, one-seat trip from resort to theme park (or other destination, such as the Marketplace) just as easily as a bus.

Yes, but you cannot have monorails running from each resort to each park, as buses do.

1. First, the current trains are way too big for such an application.
2. Second, you would quickly run into headway problems; buses can run a few dozen feet apart and in parallel on multiple lanes.
3. Third, when a theme park exits, buses are loading for all the resorts simultaneously. It would be impractical to build a depot with 15 individual monorail platforms, and alternately, trying to load even 3 or 4 trains simultaneously from 15 individual queues would truly be a logistical nightmare.

IMO, the best layout would be a double-beamed monorail backbone connecting the 4 parks, and some kind of feeder system to resorts. The feeder would run from each resort to the nearest park, where guests could board a monorail direct to one of the other 3 parks. The feeder could be buses, or some medium-capacity form of transit like an automated people-mover. Or a higher capacity feeder could be a shared loop between a park and several nearby resorts.

Guests would need to change only once, which is no worse than Monorail Resort guests currently do to get to Epcot. The inconvenience would be offset by the increased frequency of service and, hopefully, no more stroller folding or wheelchair strapping down.

Of course, this is all blue-sky. I don't expect WDW to move away from buses anytime in the foreseeable future, either.

 

[joelkfla]

Then again, maybe their buses are already electric or hybrid ... I dunno.

Nope, just your standard diesel with a bit of bio-fuel mixed in.

Several hybrids were tried, but none were acceptable. The latest ones had lots of maintenance problems, spending more time in the shops than on the road.

 

[Lewisc]

There are many threads regarding monorail expansion in the rumors board. Some good posts with a lot of facts. Issues are cost. Flexibility. No need for guests to transfer.

It's a shame Disney didn't at least design some kind of "special" transportation between AKL and the AK. Train. Boat. Even just a walking path.

Estimates for the capital cost of monorail construction are in the range of $100 million per mile. Given that and that monorail transportation is much less flexible than bus transportation, among other reasons, Disney never has expanded the monorail system nor would I expect them to.

Some of the rumored plans under consideration (before 9-11) used light rail instead of monorail. Most of the track would be run at grade level but some would be elevated. The cost would be a fraction of the $100 million per mile.

Then you have the fact that beyond the Monorail, there really isn't a GOOD way they could efficiently move the masses of people from the TTC parking to the front of the Magic Kingdom. The Ferry boats would not be able to scale up to the needed level if you eliminated the monorail, .....
The other major issue that has worked against a Monorail system expansion was the guest's perceived ease of use. Unlike the bus system which allows for easy A-to-B routing for the guest, The monorail system would have to be in a set loop. Switching a monorail train from one track to another is a very time consuming and involved process (Much more so than a "regular" rail setup). This would force a situation where you either have a very long loop that is more vulnerable to being put out of service by a single train having an issue, Or you would need to have multiple shorter loops to stations where guests could switch trains..... which could confuse guests (which train do I need?) or annoy them at the perceived complication of just getting from their resort to the park.

Because of those 2 issues, the monorail just wasn't practical for further expansion as the property grew to it's current layout/proportions.

Disney could easily purchase additional ferry boats. Probably not needed but Disney could even build an extra dock at the TTC and at the MK. Buses from the TTC to the MK.

The monorail was down after the accident. Disney already knows how to move guests from the TTC to the MK without the monorail.

The reason the monorail has not been expanded since 1982 comes down to the almighty dollar - buses are cheaper and do not require the large up-front capital investment necessary to expand the monorail. Other factors mentioned are primarily spin, not so much because buses are an inappropriate transportation mode, but because Disney has become far too overreliant on buses, having failed to make appropriate investments in monorail or other transportation infrastructure. Buses will always have a place in Walt Disney World, but they should never have been the only solution.



Actually, this is false. If one train breaks down on the Epcot beam, for instance, the other three trains can run back and forth in 'shuttle' mode between the two stations. That doesn't help the people on the disabled monorail, but reliability has more to do with the design and maintenance of the trains. There is nothing about a monorail that makes it necessairily any more or less reliable than any other mode of transportation.



Again, buses should properly remain a part of WDW's transportation system even if the monorail were greatly expanded, but there is no reason to make people change trains. A monorail can make a direct, one-seat trip from resort to theme park (or other destination, such as the Marketplace) just as easily as a bus.



There is no reason a monorail has to be operated in a loop like a trainset around the Christmas tree, nor does switching beams necessairily have to be a time consuming, cumbersome process (switching would ideally be minimized anyway in a well designed network). A 'looped' system I probably wouldn't call impractical, but it would be very inefficient. Indeed, operating an expanded WDW monorail system more like a real railroad has enormous advantages.

That said. monorail expansion isn't happening. Disney is too cheap.

Shuttle mode? You lost 25% of capacity due to one monorail being out of service. I'm not sure how much you lose by having to run the others in shuttle mode. Guests would be waiting longer for a train. Bus goes out of operation and those guests can be transferred to another bus very quickly. Very little impact on capacity.

A big factor which is missed. Rail works best when you have a lot of passengers in one location. That means it makes a lot more sense to have rail at the value resorts then at a deluxe. The numbers might make sense to have a rail stop at POP or at the All-Stars but not at the AKL. I don't think guests would accept a transportation system that at least appeared to offer better transportion at the value resorts then some of the deluxe.

Assume you want to offer monorail from the EPCOT resorts. Currently the EPCOT resorts have 3 boat docks. I think there are 5 bus stops. How many monorail stops would you have? Probably only one. That suggests a walk longer then some guests would be willing, or able, to make.

One rumor that made some sense. Rumor was Disney was considering creating a second TTC, maybe even replace the existing TTC, at DTD. Build large garages similar to Universal. Funnel guests through DTD on the way to some kind of light rail which would transport guests directly to a theme park.

 

[Redarrow5150]

I watched CNBC Special on Walt Disney and they refute what you are saying. If anything, EPCOT is everything he envisioned and even on his deathbed in the hospital they put the layout on the ceiling so he could plan until he passed away.

Walt Disney was a visionary. He wanted Disney World to be a model for future communities, and the monorail fit right in with that. He was also a lover of all forms of rail transportation, and he was willing to put up the money to build something he believed in, even when every one else told him it would never work.

When Walt died, his brother Roy came out of retirement to see Walt's vision thru to fruition.

EPCOT Center is nothing like what Walt envisioned, but still, it was sort of a tribute to Walt, and many in the company at the time were still inspired by Walt's vision -- so the monorail extension went forward.

By the time Disney-MGM Studios was built, Eisner was in control. The company was focused on the bottom line -- which was not entirely Eisner's fault; it was (and still is) largely due to the Wall Street environment. As has been said by pp's, monorails are expensive, and it's hard to make a case that they improve the bottom line.

 

[DCTooTall]

I watched CNBC Special on Walt Disney and they refute what you are saying. If anything, EPCOT is everything he envisioned and even on his deathbed in the hospital they put the layout on the ceiling so he could plan until he passed away.

Hate to tell you, But no.

Besides the fact that Walt died in the mid-60's, Before the MK was even completed, and LONG before the EPCOT park was a legitimate glimmer in the company's eye as a legitimate 2nd park, the fact is that the EPCOT park isn't anything like the Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow that Walt originally envisioned.


You can see some of the concept artwork for Walt's Experimental Prototype City at various places online, and you can even see part of Walt's model on the WEDway.


Walt's EPCoT was a fully functional city that used Peoplemovers to bring people into the city from an outlying suburb. It was not a themepark.


Here's a link to the Wiki article on the original concept. I didn't read thru it though, but it should at least give you an idea of the differences between Walt's concept and what we have today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_Prototype_Community_of_Tomorrow_(concept)