Why do some people eat with their fork upside down? And when did that start?

[Kitty 34]

A couple elements at play here. First being the American vs. Continental (with minor variations between British and European) style of utensil usage.

Lately the continental style is becoming much in vogue here in the States. Perhaps there is more exposure to more British and Euro television, or maybe an uptick in international travel over the last decade or so is bringing this style, more common elsewhere, home.

Using the Continental form, the fork stays in ones left hand, tines pointed down, and the knife in the right while eating. The handles of each utensil running inline with the hand, this method is sometimes called the hidden-handle method. The American style, which moves the fork to the dominant hand after the meat is cut, is found by many foreign observers to be clumsy or inelegant.

Which puts this matter on my list of things other countries are probably too quick to feel superior about. I have been told it looks clumsy, ineffective, and even that it makes the diner appear inept, and that the American style was a lax form that developed in the backwoods colonies. That the "zig-zag" of moving the fork left and right is distracting. The opposite is actually true.

When the American colonies were established the European method of dining prevailed among them. This meant no forks (except in Italy ... for some reason). A spoon or a knife was used, one or the other, in the right hand, or food was picked up and eaten with fingers. That is why particularly old table settings will include finger bowls for washing hands at the table.

Sometime in the early to mid 18th c. the use of the fork spread across Europe to the Colonies. At which time the style of holding the fork in the right hand (like any other utensil) was universal. the exception, of course is that when one is cutting ones meat, the knife is held and the fork passes to the off hand to hold the meat for cutting.

At the time, meat was most commonly served by a carver so there really wasn't need for a meat cutting knife in the hand at all times. For that matter, many working class households didn't have sharp knives for every setting. But in the case of being served something like a chop, etiquette would have the diner cut their meat and then return the knife to an idle station, or perhaps turn cut the meat of the lady or elderly or otherwise invalid person (antiquated viewpoints which are not my own) to the diner's left or right. This is the correct form of the American Style. One should not be cutting a piece of meat, switching the fork to the right hand, eating the morsel, then resetting the fork to the left hand and cutting another piece of meat. I don't think I've ever seen an American doing it that way but this seems to be a common impression the British have of our eating habits.

So how did the Continental System develop? The French. The French monarchy, beginning with Louis 14th, used etiquette as a means to control stroppy nobles. Changes in 'courtly' behavior were published regularly and compliance was expected. One way to show off French superiority was to make sharp cutlery a standard item at each place setting, something that came to pass around the time of the American Revolution. And to make a bigger spectacle of having a knife for every diner, it was decreed that the proper way to eat would be for the knife to be in use constantly from the beginning to the end of the meat course. Cut a piece, eat a piece, cut a piece, eat a piece... etc... Because France was considered the height of polite society and fashion (even in England ... even while England and France were at war...) the French style spread quickly across Europe. A large reason for this may have been that most of Europe was 'united' under Napoleon, but for whatever reason it stuck.

The newly United States never picked up the French style. Around the time the US had time to consider it, they were just 'done' with France anyway and I think they figured they would just keep on eating like they have been because it worked.

Which way is better? I find the Continental Style distracting. Not because of which hand the fork is in or tines up vs down. Just cut your meat, put the knife down, and eat. It also bugs me that the same posture is adopted for food that doesn't need to be cut with a knife. A fish course, for instance, should be eaten with a fork in the right hand; whatever side of the Atlantic you're on.

To the bloke (a good friend really) that suggested the American style looked clumsy or inept ... I asked him to describe how they eat peas in England. The beet red version of him acknowledged the touché. If you've never seen it ... okay ... food that can't be stabbed with the fork are supposed to be marshalled with the knife onto the back of the fork (the convex top of the fork if the tines are pointed down). Like mashed potatoes and such, it gets sectioned off by the knife and then ... mooshed into the back of the fork and then brought to the mouth. About the clumsiest way to eat, you might think, that is until it's time to eat peas. They roll off the back of the fork. So the English-Proper way to eat them is to smash them against the plate until they can be mortared onto the back of the fork.

So there you go. The American style has been in practice since the beginning of the fork's general usage and was the dominant style across Europe and England. The Continental style is a more modern invention. It was given to the world by the French as a way to show of and also make eating just a little bit more like ballet. I won't say the American style is better, unless someone asks me, or criticize someone for using the much more common Euro-method, unless they ask for it.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk, brought to you by Adderall and Snow-Day boredom

LOL at the bolded.

 

[cobright]

I think maybe you misread what I said. I cut what needs cutting with the knife then put it down to put the food in my mouth. I don’t cut anything with the side of my fork.

You should be cutting most things with the side of your fork, save red meats, pork, and maybe chicken if you're eating old birds.

 

[Carol_]

so basically, Americans are confused as to why the rest of the world dont use a knife and fork like they do.... right... gotcha....

https://www.debretts.com/expertise/etiquette/table-manners/table-rules/
Dining Etiquette from Debrett's
Using Cutlery
The fork and spoon are the only things that should go into the mouth. Never lick the knife or eat off it. If using a knife and fork together, always keep the tines of the fork pointing downwards and push the food on to the fork. It may be necessary to use mashed potato to make peas stick to the fork but it is incorrect to turn the fork over and scoop.

There are foods that are eaten with just a fork, including some pasta and some fish. In this case use the fork in the right hand and have the tines up, more like a spoon. It is not traditional in England, but quite usual in America, to see someone cut all their food up and then discard the knife and eat with the fork alone.

It is not correct to hold your knife like a pen. The handle lies in the palm of the hand and is secured by the thumb on the side and the index finger on top of the handle. It is permissible in a restaurant to ask for a steak knife, if the meat is tough, but rude to ask for anything extra in a private house.

When finished, the knife and fork (with tines facing upwards) or spoon etc are placed on the plate in a six-thirty position.

Six-thirty? That’s pure insanity, and I won’t do it. I don’t care what your friend says on the interweb.

 

[prairie_girl]

You should be cutting most things with the side of your fork, save red meats, pork, and maybe chicken if you're eating old birds.

why? What harm am I doing by cutting my potatoes with a knife?

 

[Carol_]

why? What harm am I doing by cutting my potatoes with a knife?

You’re clearly insulting the root vegetables.

 

[prairie_girl]

No, I got that.

Ok then

 

[NotUrsula]

Tines up or down...whatever, do what you prefer.

But for the love of all this good, please do not grab your fork with your entire fist like a caveman. Hold it like a pen. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

This is a part of why I pointed out that it is easier for children to learn the Continental style; because it is very close to holding the fork with the fist, which toddlers naturally do because it is the only way they can manage to control it.

When you hold a fork tines-down, you do pretty much grasp it with the entire fist, but extend the index finger "up" the back of the fork toward the tines in order to make it easy to properly direct pressure on the fork. The handle of the fork actually rests in the bend of your second knuckles rather than in your palm (the position of the index finger forces that, and also pulls the thumb out against the side of the fork handle), but it's a good natural progression away from a fully-closed fist.

FWIW, most Europeans I know think that the American style is unnecessarily busy and perhaps a bit ostentatious, but not lazy -- after all, look at all the unnecessary exercise their hands are getting. There is one exception to that: situations where the diner begins the meal by cutting everything up at once, (as if preparing a plate for a young child), then putting the knife down permanently and eating the rest of the meal entirely right-handed. The reason that's sometimes viewed askance is that one is perceived to be deliberately eating like a child, and sometimes also that it seems to ruin the experience of savoring meals, because those people tend to eat their food quickly once they have finished cutting it all to bits (presumably because it gets cold faster when it is all cut up.)

BTW, Europeans still give children table knives as soon as they can begin to master the use of them. Once the everything-into-the-mouth stage of babyhood is left behind, there is no perception that an ordinary table knife is too dangerous for a child. DH & I actually used to have issues over this one; I would set the table with knives for the children, and he would take the knives away because he thought they were too dangerous. In fact, until they were at least about 8 years old he always took the knives out of the cutlery drawer and put them on a high shelf in the kitchen to keep them out of the kids' easy reach, which I thought was ridiculous; they knew that knives required caution by the time they were 3 or so. It drove me nuts always having to hunt all over the place for a knife when I wanted one.

 

[Dan Murphy]

I'm right-handed. I use the knife in my right hand if needed to cut something, and then use the fork in my right hand, tines up. I think if I used my left hand to deliver the food to my mouth, I would probably hit my ear with it.

 

[DLgal]

BTW, Europeans still give children table knives as soon as they can begin to master the use of them. Once the everything-into-the-mouth stage of babyhood is left behind, there is no perception that an ordinary table knife is too dangerous for a child. DH & I actually used to have issues over this one; I would set the table with knives for the children, and he would take the knives away because he thought they were too dangerous. In fact, until they were at least about 8 years old he always took the knives out of the cutlery drawer and put them on a high shelf in the kitchen to keep them out of the kids' easy reach, which I thought was ridiculous; they knew that knives required caution by the time they were 3 or so. It drove me nuts always having to hunt all over the place for a knife when I wanted one.

Isn't a standard dining knife NOT sharp? I.E. a rounded "butter" knife? That is what we use for eating. The sharp steak knives only come out for meats that require them. In restaurants, you never get a sharp knife unless you order a steak or pork chop or something that requires it.

 

[DLgal]

I'm right-handed. I use the knife in my right hand if needed to cut something, and then use the fork in my right hand, tines up. I think if I used my left hand to deliver the food to my mouth, I would probably hit my ear with it.

I'm also right handed but I hold my fork in my left hand the whole time when eating food that needs cutting. I can't cut with my left hand at ALL, but can eat equally well with my left or right hand. That whole switcheroo is so exhausting to even watch, I can't imagine doing it.

 

[NYCgrrl]

Six-thirty? That’s pure insanity, and I won’t do it. I don’t care what your friend says on the interweb.

The method that you commented on tells the server or host that you are finished eating without words. Allows the dishes to be cleared without any annoyance at being constantly “hovered” over. Certainly not a form of etiquette made to peeve you. I don’t necessarily put the used eating utensils at 6:30 exactly (or or uhm is it 18:30? ) but a close approximation ensures that all are of the same mind .

 

[Carol_]

The method that you commented on tells the server or host that you are finished eating without words. Allows the dishes to be cleared without any annoyance at being constantly “hovered” over. Certainly not a form of etiquette made to peeve you. I don’t necessarily put the used eating utensils at 6:30 exactly (or or uhm is it 18:30? ) but a close approximation ensures that all are of the same mind .

It’s 4:00 or you’re simply an untrained heathen.
https://www.etiquettescholar.com/dining_etiquette/table_manners/resting_utensils_etiquette.html

 

[Kitty 34]

After reading this thread all day, I'm having soup for dinner and toasted cheese sandwiches. :

 

[NYCgrrl]

It’s 4:00 or you’re simply an untrained heathen.
https://www.etiquettescholar.com/dining_etiquette/table_manners/resting_utensils_etiquette.html

Could you please make an audio file and send it to me?

I could leave it for my kiddies to be played at my funeral and a fine parting it would be with all attendees in hysterics.