What can you tell me about Boy Scouts/Tiger Cubs

As they are still anti-gay and anti-freedom from religion, there is no way I'd let my kids participate. It would be hypocritical of me, as those are important issues to our family.

I feel the same way, which is why I wouldn't let me kids do it, and, hard as it is, I don't support any of the fundraisers my godkids do (Scouting is a huge part of their life).

I don't want to teach my kids "We don't believe in discriminating against someone because of their religion or sexual orientation, but we're going to join this group who does, because it looks like fun" There just no way to do that without being a hypocrite. It's OK to have standards, but only if they don't get in the way of your personal enjoyment?

Even if it's not an issue at the den level, it's a national policy of BSA. It's not hype, no one is being mislead by people wanting to negativiely portray BSA. It's right there, codified in black and white. http://www.bsalegal.org/morally-straight-cases-225.asp

I don't feel comfortable supporting it. It's such a shame BSA has to be this way.
 
How is that?

They will not employ athiests or agnostics, not will they allow them in a scout leadership position. Members are asked to acknowledge God in various statements, oaths.

They will accept allegiance to pretty much ANY "mainstream" God but having no God is not acceptable.
 
:yay: I am a proud mom of a Wolf, I was his Tiger Den Leader last year and I will continue to be his Wolf leader this year, and I am also the new committee chairperson for our Pack. Scouting has been an AWESOME experience, not just for my son, but for myself as well. We had done all the events that others have talked about (food drive, Pinewood Derby, rocketships, etc.). We hold our Pack meetings once a month, and Den meetings once every 3 weeks or so, but my boys also have activitys they do outside of the Den or Pack events (I know for Tigers there were a lot of things that were best done at home, and discused at Den meetings).

DS and I went to Cub Scout camp with our Pack this summer for 4 days. We both had a blast. He still walks around singing songs or doing chants that he learned, and he can't wait to sit at the Cub Scout table with me at Open House tonight and tell his friends about what he did.

What I found for myself is that, in a roundabout way, it gave me a chance to get involved in our school. I work during the day, so it is hard for me to get to the school to do any volunteer work. But my name is known around the school, and parents/teachers know that I am a person to talk about Scouts with (I have had teachers recommed kids to me that they think Scout involvement would be a great thing for). I have also met a wonderful group of parents, in all the Den leaders, committee members, and families that are involved in Scouts.

Give it a try, hopefully he will enjoy it as much as my son has!
 
In my 5 years of scouting there was never any talk of homosexuality or religion. There were people of all religions in my troop. Last I checked, the Boy Scouts wasn't trying to turn out Christian warriors. There is somewhat of an emphasis on Christianity, but that just comes from it's roots. There were plenty of other religions I came across during my scouting years.

The media went on a witch hunt with them, and unfortunately most people bought into the hype. They tried to make it seem like scouting troops were running around beating up gays and denouncing anyone that wasn't Christian. They took a couple isolated incidents and turned it into a national outrage. Tabloid journalism at it's finest!

I am not a religious person at all, nor was I when I was in the scouts, and it was well known during my scouting years. Funny, I still had one of the best times of my life and became an Eagle Scout. And no one ever said anything about my beliefs, and it didn't hinder me in the least bit.
 

Again, I'm quoting myself about my concerns. I don't want them to discuss gays. I do not need my son to have a gay leader. My concern is, as a whole, the boy scout organization has discriminated against gays. I would imagine that's it's not even an issue in my community either. But it's still an issue with the organization.

And again, I appreciate the info what the kids do as it does sound like something my son would like.

This was one reason my husband would not even consider letting our youngest son be a scout. That and a money scandal. I really wanted our son to be able to try it as his older brothers had, but didn't fight that battle with my DH.
 
They will not employ athiests or agnostics, not will they allow them in a scout leadership position. Members are asked to acknowledge God in various statements, oaths.

They will accept allegiance to pretty much ANY "mainstream" God but having no God is not acceptable.


Absolutely wrong. I have known plenty of people in scout leadership positions that NEVER had to "swear allegiance" to a God. Yes, some of the oaths do mention God, but heck, so do some of our nations's oaths. Doesn't mean you have to BELIEVE in God to do it.

You're making it sound like it is some kind of cult forcing God onto people, when it is nothing of the sort. It's about taking young men, teaching them leadership, strength, courage, and principles. There is some basis in religious morals, but it is far from shoved down your throats. And this is America we're talking about, religious morality is the cornerstone of most institutions as far as I've noticed.

It is not about forcing young men into religion. Far from it.
 
In all my years of scouting I have never even had a discussion with anyone about homosexuality, nor was it ever brought up. I never even knew anyone in scouting (and I met Boy Scouts from all over the country) that had EVER had the discussion.

I don't agree that they have a national policy against homosexuals, but I also believe they are protecting themselves. I couldn't even imagine the amount of lawsuits that would happen with people making up stories about their kids being molested or attacked, true or not. The Boy Scouts could then be held legally responsible for "allowing" this to happen. It's a sad state that people think that way, but ask a random person on the street if they would be worried if their kid's Scout Leader was gay, and I bet a majority of them would say yes. It's not right, I don't agree with it, but it's how most of America thinks unfortunately.
 
/
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In all my years of scouting I have never even had a discussion with anyone about homosexuality, nor was it ever brought up. I never even knew anyone in scouting (and I met Boy Scouts from all over the country) that had EVER had the discussion.

I don't see why people think that they Boy Scouts are running around promoting anti-gay beliefs. I guess the news is more powerful than I thought :guilty:

So the BSA says it's ok to have a gay leader?
 
Thank you everyone. I appreciate all the comments from both sides. I have a lot to think about. There's an informational meeting up at school tonight and I might go and just see what's up with this pack. Of course, if I go DS is going to think he's joining. We have a lot of activities already, so I don't know how much more we can take on.

And one more question: am I going to have to go camping with my son. I don't camp. :rolleyes1
 
I don't agree that they have a national policy against homosexuals, but I also believe they are protecting themselves. I couldn't even imagine the amount of lawsuits that would happen with people making up stories about their kids being molested or attacked, true or not. The Boy Scouts could then be held legally responsible for "allowing" this to happen.
Gay person and child molester are not synonymous. Aren't pack leaders parents? Why are we to assume that gay parents are more likely to be inappropriate than straight parents. Don't they do background checks on ALL leaders?
 
You won't have to do anything you don't want to. It's normally a better experience for the kid if you're involved with his scouting, but we had plents of scouts that never had a parent show up for anything. It's strictly volunteer.

Camping is oh so much fun though ;)

So the BSA says it's ok to have a gay leader?

Read my other post, there is a difference between promoting something and having a rule. No, they would not have a gay leader, but read my other post for the reasons I believe why.

What I'm stating is that people are making it seem like the Boy Scouts go around trying to make everyone heterosexual. Sexuality was 0% of my scouting experience, and I believe most other scouts as well. There were a couple scouts in my troop that were kind of on the fence with their sexuality, and no one ever said anything. It just wasn't a part of the scouting experience.

Like I said above, I believe the reason they take the stance they do is to protect themselves legally.
 
Absolutely wrong. I have known plenty of people in scout leadership positions that NEVER had to "swear allegiance" to a God. Yes, some of the oaths do mention God, but heck, so do some of our nations's oaths. Doesn't mean you have to BELIEVE in God to do it.

I'm glad you enjoyed your scouting experience, but I don't know how to make it any clearer that this is BSA national policy.

And yes, I suppose you could say the oaths, lead grace, and tell everyone you are a member of a religious community while you are not, but why lie to be part of the BSA? And even if you did lie to participate, it doesn't change the fact that it's national policy.

The BSA maintain that they are absolutely non-sectarian, but they do insist on some form of belief.

Quoted directy from their website:

In the Scout Oath, a Scout promises to do his “duty to God,” and in the Scout Law he promises to be “reverent.”

The Boy Scout Handbook (11th ed.) explains a Scouts’ “duty to God” as “Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.”

The Handbook explains “reverent” as “A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.”

All levels of advancement in the Scouting program have requirements recognizing “duty to God”:

*and*

● Employment
With respect to positions limited to professional Scouters or, because of their close relationship to the mission of Scouting, positions limited to registered members of the Boy Scouts of America, acceptance of the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law is required. Accordingly, in the exercise of their constitutional right to bring the values of Scouting to youth members, the Boy Scouts of America will not employ atheists, agnostics, known or avowed homosexuals, or others as professional Scouters or in other capacities in which such employment would tend to interfere with the mission of reinforcing the values of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law in young people.


● Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cl. 1


“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.”


The policy may have been fine for you, and again, I can see that your scouting experience was valuable to you. But not everyone is OK with a policy like this.

Instead of denying that it exists, why not just say "I know others might not agree, but it's something I'm OK with" or "I would prefer it's not that way, but I still found my scouting experience to be worthwhile and I recommend it for others".
 
And one more question: am I going to have to go camping with my son. I don't camp. :rolleyes1

Real camping doesn't typically happen until they are older...4th and 5th grade, maybe a little sooner. But by then you will hopefully have enough active adults who DO like to camp.
 
Gay person and child molester are not synonymous. Aren't pack leaders parents? Why are we to assume that gay parents are more likely to be inappropriate than straight parents. Don't they do background checks on ALL leaders?

I knew someone would think this, which is why I tried to word my post carefully, but I knew someone would think I was equating gay people with child molestors.

I DO NOT THINK THAT, I made it abundantly clear in my post.

What I was stating, is that that the average American parent IS going to think that if their child has a gay leader. I would not think that, and I wish no one else would either. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and not realize that most parents wouldn't be comfortable with a gay scout leader, especially because of the nature of scouting.

You missed my point entirely, I wasn't claiming that a gay scout leader would be any worse or more inappropriate than a straight scout leader. I was stating that a large amount of American parents would have second thought is the leader was the case, as sad as that may be.

I hope you now understand what I was trying to say, I was hoping I had made it clear before :(
 
Sexuality was 0% of my scouting experience, and I believe most other scouts as well. There were a couple scouts in my troop that were kind of on the fence with their sexuality, and no one ever said anything. It just wasn't a part of the scouting experience.

I think most people here get that. I certainly don't think kids sit around at scouting meetings listening to presentations on "Why Homosexuals and Athiests are Bad". :laughing:

But the matter remains that it's official, national policy of the BSA to disciminate against athiests, agnostics, and homosexuals and that goes against the belief systems of some people to the point they don't want to be associated with the organization, even if camping is fun. ;)
 
I'm glad you enjoyed your scouting experience, but I don't know how to make it any clearer that this is BSA national policy.

And yes, I suppose you could say the oaths, lead grace, and tell everyone you are a member of a religious community while you are not, but why lie to be part of the BSA? And even if you did lie to participate, it doesn't change the fact that it's national policy.

The BSA maintain that they are absolutely non-sectarian, but they do insist on some form of belief.

Quoted directy from their website:

In the Scout Oath, a Scout promises to do his “duty to God,” and in the Scout Law he promises to be “reverent.”

The Boy Scout Handbook (11th ed.) explains a Scouts’ “duty to God” as “Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.”

The Handbook explains “reverent” as “A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.”

All levels of advancement in the Scouting program have requirements recognizing “duty to God”:

*and*

● Employment
With respect to positions limited to professional Scouters or, because of their close relationship to the mission of Scouting, positions limited to registered members of the Boy Scouts of America, acceptance of the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law is required. Accordingly, in the exercise of their constitutional right to bring the values of Scouting to youth members, the Boy Scouts of America will not employ atheists, agnostics, known or avowed homosexuals, or others as professional Scouters or in other capacities in which such employment would tend to interfere with the mission of reinforcing the values of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law in young people.


● Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cl. 1


“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.”


The policy may have been fine for you, and again, I can see that your scouting experience was valuable to you. But not everyone is OK with a policy like this.

Instead of denying that it exists, why not just say "I know others might not agree, but it's something I'm OK with" or "I would prefer it's not that way, but I still found my scouting experience to be worthwhile and I recommend it for others".


I never once denied it existed. Please tell me where I denied anything? I actually said that they do have a national policy of not allowing homosexuals, and that I believe it is wrong. I also said that I understand why they do it.

All I am clarifiying is that people make it seems like there is some kind of agenda with scouting, when there isn't.

If you're not ok with an anti-gay policy, it is your right not to choose the organization of course. But quite a few people in this thread have made it seem like they are having weekly meetings about being "straight and god fearing", when that couldn't be further from the truth.

I do understand where you're coming from, and of course it's anyone's choice. Just want to make sure that the actual facts are laid out there, especially from people that actually were in scouting :)
 
I think most people here get that. I certainly don't think kids sit around at scouting meetings listening to presentations on "Why Homosexuals and Athiests are Bad". :laughing:

But the matter remains that it's official, national policy of the BSA to disciminate against athiests, agnostics, and homosexuals and that goes against the belief systems of some people to the point they don't want to be associated with the organization, even if camping is fun. ;)


Absolutely fair point, it's your choice to belong to who you want to. Personally, there is nothing else like the scouts out there for me, so if we have a boy, I will definitely be directing him towards the scouts. I don't know of any other organization like it!

That of course is just my own personal choice :)
 
Instead of denying that it exists, why not just say "I know others might not agree, but it's something I'm OK with" or "I would prefer it's not that way, but I still found my scouting experience to be worthwhile and I recommend it for others".

Actually, that's brilliant - I would say that is true for the vast majority of scouters and parents. I am pro-scouting, but I will tell you that their stance on homosexuality is one in a long list of STUPID rules they have in place to (as they see it) protect themselves.

Here's another...see if you can follow this for an example of ridiculous rules and policies from the BSA:

The boys had to pass a swim test in order to swim in the deep end of the pool at summer camp. It was a very difficult test, too. Even when they passed and were qualified as a "swimmer" they couldn't swim in the deep end without being with a buddy who was also a certified "swimmer." Okaaay. Well, the pool is also manned by a certified lifeguard, a host of adult leaders and staff, AND....the pool was only about twice as big as our backyard pool, maybe smaller. Good Lord, a bomb would have to drop on the pool for anyone to drown.

On a side note, the whole organization is pretty darn sexist if you think about it. They don't allow girls...how many places in society is THAT okay? We are in need of a cubmaster, currently, and I would be ok doing it, maybe even short term. I was flat out told, "nope, we want a man." I get that, I do, but that often sounds wrong to my ears, always having been raised that men and women are equal.
 
Thank you everyone. I appreciate all the comments from both sides. I have a lot to think about. There's an informational meeting up at school tonight and I might go and just see what's up with this pack. Of course, if I go DS is going to think he's joining. We have a lot of activities already, so I don't know how much more we can take on.

And one more question: am I going to have to go camping with my son. I don't camp. :rolleyes1

Our den actually doesn't "camp" in the true sense yet. We have gone on sleepovers to the Hall of Science in NYC and slept on a real battleship in Battleship Cove MA. Both were a blast! Each scout needs an adult with them. We also have family weekends at the local boy scout camp where the whole family is invited to camp...tent or RV :rolleyes1 Otherwise, we aren't allowed to actually camp as a den/pack until the boys are older.

Believe me, I hate camping too :rotfl2:
 
What I was stating, is that that the average American parent IS going to think that if their child has a gay leader. I would not think that, and I wish no one else would either. But I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and not realize that most parents wouldn't be comfortable with a gay scout leader, especially because of the nature of scouting.
Sorry, I understood your post. But I don't really like that the organization still writes policy based on outlandish beliefs because "many people think like that."

Pearlieq, if you're still reading, do you have a link to that info you posted above. It doesn't sit well with me at all, that that's a written policy.
 

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