WDW Expansion - DVC Resorts

[MerlinandtheMouse]

I blame Disney though.

If Disney didn’t make it so unbelievably hard to successfully visit WDW, these sites / influencers wouldn’t have ever built up a tenth the traffic. There’s not a pile of subscription services promising to help people make the most of their trip to Club Med. it’s hard to find more than a basic overview of like Oasis of the Seas. There’s not even a fifth the content around Disneyland. This whole world exists because it’s so easy to spend $10K at WDW and still be miserable the whole time. And people want to avoid that. IMHO.

I don’t disagree, per se. Disney is very complicated and very expensive but also, I’m not sure how that can change. We all want more parks and rides and shows and hotels and amenities. We want details and unique experiences and sometimes we want exclusive ($) access to those things. We want a way to bypass lines and ways to book things ahead of time but also sometimes want to be able to do things last minute and spontaneously. We want things to be free but we want less wait times and more options and opportunities. We want more pixie dust moments and core memories with amazing cast members all which cost a lot of money and require even more cast members, equaling more money.

There is no experience in the world quite like a Disney trip and to keep that status it is unfortunately, but inevitably, going to stay complicated and expensive. Otherwise it would be no different from the Busch Gardens and Six Flags of the world. Not even Universal can compete just yet. And I’d wager if Universal does attempt to make their newest park more like Disney, things will get more expensive and complicated not long after.

So going back to influencers, I agree, Disney has made a product that needs constant explaining and influencers fill that void for them(for pretty much free, as well-a win for them). Problem now is that all the “secret” things that made Disney great are being overrun by everyone trying to experience those things, too, making it less special and more chaotic. I guess it’s not fair to blame either of these parties, it’s all an unfortunate snowballing effect, really.

 

[RivShore]

But aren't the cash bookings where Disney really makes the money? They clear more profit but have more fluctuation in cash sales it seems like, so having DVC is good to keep a constant revenue source, but it doesn't have profit growth unless it's in active sales.

I like hybrid because it seems like the cash rooms/hotel sides of DVC tend to subsidize (or at least stabilize) the DVC dues for a resort. Plus, I think the hybrid model helps to keep TS restaurants and to a lesser extend QS restaurants in demand at the resorts. Guests who aren't certain when their next Disney trip will be are more likely to splurge on meals and merch too IMO. So I'm all in favor of it. More hybrids please, I think it keeps the resort more healthy/resilient overall.

Also - Where was this info released? I saw a number of people talking about it today but no source material.

Here's some details:

https://blogmickey.com/2024/05/tour...theme-park-hotel-development-for-next-decade/

At a high level, the proposed development agreement will limit development uses over the next 10 years to the following maximums:

• 53,467 hotel rooms
• 1,258,564 square feet of office building space
• 1,732,887 square feet of retail/restaurant space
• 5 “minor” theme parks (read: water parks, ESPN Wide World of Sports, etc)
• 5 “major” theme parks (read: one more theme park)

Inevitably, someone will read this and think that a 5th gate is coming – that’s not what’s happening at all. The development agreement lists development maximums, not development outcomes. So while the development agreement allows for the densities listed above, whether or not Disney will use all of the allowed densities remains a business decision for the theme park giant.


Furthermore, the proposed maximum of a 5th theme park is nothing new. The inclusion of 5 “major” theme parks has been part of prior development maximums for decades. So while you’ll certainly read headlines declaring a 5th gate is coming, this development agreement suggests nothing of the sort.

 

[Massachusetts]

Here is a link from WFTV Orlando's coverage: https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/peo...1&cvid=881f0679645745bd93365609b24e8bdf&ei=23

 

[tjkraz]

Disney is going to do what Disney is going to do. But FWIW, I hope they increase the resort's supporting accommodations along with all those added DVC rooms. We were at the Poly last week, and it was packed! I've never seen it like this before. I got a bad feeling as I sat in the lobby an hour waiting for our room to be available watching all the other people pouring thru the front doors to check in. Sort of like the "standing room only" waiting area for Ohana's restaurant. Yes, the restaurant was that full ... from opening till closing. And forget about doing the "monorail bar crawl." There were no open seats at Tambu Lounge after 2 PM any day that I ever saw when we walked by. Both pools were packed too. Dido for Capt. Cooks quick service. I've understood the reality of Trader Sam's waiting list for years. But last week it seemed that waitng list concept applied to EVERYTHING at the Poly, even waiting for the monorail once in awhile.

Thing is, the Poly hasn't added any rooms since the mid 1980s. (Unless you consider the 20 bungalows to be some sort of a tipping point.) I agree that the lobby can get congested at times. It's a destination in-and-of-itself for Walt Disney World guests. But I'm not sure what Disney can reasonably do to curtail interest.

As for the monorail, EVERY form of Disney transportation has waits during the busiest times. And every resort pool fills up mid-day throughout the summer.

Due to the Poly's age, there are a lot of people who have stayed there and have distant memories of how things were in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. (Whether or not those isolated memories are representative of "typical" experience is another matter.) I'm quite sure that some guest behaviors have changed over the years, but I'm not sure how you put that genie back in the bottle. For 40 years it's been an 800+ room resort with two pools. Crowded pools during hot days is not a new phenomenon.

In spite of all my complaining, Kona Cafe let me & the misses have a seat for dinner one night when we did not have an ADR.

Kona Cafe currently has ADRs available for breakfast, lunch and dinner--with multiple time slots--every day over the next 2 weeks and beyond. It is a very easy restaurant to get into for any resort guest wishing to dine on short notice. Nearby Grand Floridian Cafe is also not difficult. Island Tower looks to have at least 2 food & beverage venues, some combination of table service / quick service / coffee shop / bar / lounge. And it's adding a third pool to the resort with just ~250 more guest rooms. With the formal porte cochere and massive lobby, there's no reason to think there won't be a "front desk" presence. At most resorts, Disney has trimmed down the lobby facilities to smaller, more personal podiums with cast members working from tablet computers.

 

[Hubalorian]

Would these rooms count the 2042 DVC resorts that’ll be flipped? Those are within the 20 year timeline

 

[CarolynFH]

Would these rooms count the 2042 DVC resorts that’ll be flipped? Those are within the 20 year timeline

I’m not completely sure what you’re asking, but the rooms in the 2042 resorts have nothing to do with the PVB Poly Tower rooms. Legally speaking, each one is a completely separate condominium association and has its own independent timeline (and future, which at this time is unknown past 2042).

 

[Hubalorian]

I’m not completely sure what you’re asking, but the rooms in the 2042 resorts have nothing to do with the PVB Poly Tower rooms. Legally speaking, each one is a completely separate condominium association and has its own independent timeline (and future, which at this time is unknown past 2042).

The OG post is “They announced over 13k new hotel rooms with the WDW expansion over the next 20 yrs? Sooo many more DVC rooms I'm sure. Let's have some fun speculating resort themes, locations, sizes, etc.”

My question was will the 2042 resorts be apart of that 13k new hotel room count

 

[CraigInPA]

Problem now is that all the “secret” things that made Disney great are being overrun by everyone trying to experience those things, too, making it less special and more chaotic. I guess it’s not fair to blame either of these parties, it’s all an unfortunate snowballing effect, really.

Expanding this... influencers publicized DAS, which was designed for people not in a wheelchair but unable to stay in a line for long periods of time. Unfortunately, in true Disney fashion, Disney allowed virtually anyone to get such a pass without even a doctor's note. This lead to a tremendous number of people who were not otherwise eligible getting the DAS pass, and then bragging about it on social media. Now, Disney has changed the pass to specify that it's for specific conditions like Autism and ADHD, but still doesn't require a doctor's note. I don't see this problem going away, especially since influencers are now talking about ways to get the pass by claiming your child has ADHD.

 

[tjkraz]

The OG post is “They announced over 13k new hotel rooms with the WDW expansion over the next 20 yrs? Sooo many more DVC rooms I'm sure. Let's have some fun speculating resort themes, locations, sizes, etc.”

My question was will the 2042 resorts be apart of that 13k new hotel room count

As subsequent posts indicate, Disney is under no obligation to build the 13k rooms. It's unlikely to happen.

As for DVC, in the 10 year span from 2009 to 2019, DVC likely sold somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 rooms' worth of points. BLT, VGF, Poly and Copper Creek totals about 950 rooms, plus they also sold some remaining inventory in Saratoga and AKV.

Since we're less than 18 years from the 2042 resorts expiring, DVC probably needs somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000-2200 rooms worth of points to support sales over that span. And that includes the ~100 left at Riviera, 250-ish at Poly tower and 330 FTW cabins which are already in the pipeline. They won't build more than 1000-1500 additional units before 2042.

(Note that "rooms" are a very inexact measure since the unit is actually points. And the resorts listed above run the gamut from rather expensive VGF to the cheaper studio-heavy Poly longhouses. It also doesn't do a good job of factoring in generally slower sales over the past 4 years. At the end of the day, Disney doesn't need anywhere near 13k DVC villas to support sales over the next 2 decades.)

 

[maui22]

In 2009, Kidani (~5.6 million), THV (~900k), BLT (~5.7 million) all opened. End of 2008 didn’t seem very good for sales.
March 2009, the bottom for stocks hit and sales took off. BLT was definitely the driver of those sales.
Unfortunately, the foreclosures started hitting hard. IIRC, 2010 and 2011 were their peak foreclosure years. Most of these were SSR and I believe AKV was second. These foreclosed points had to be sold a second time. Really put a damper on Disney’s WDW hotel growth.

One moderate resort was closed entirely during part of the Great Recession. Some were upgraded from moderates to deluxe (CBR to GF and CR). Some were upgraded from value to 1BR at SSR. Spring 2009 through the end of 2009, was a very good time to visit WDW if you weren’t impacted directly by the 2007-2009 collapse.

Happily, many people don’t recall how bad things were back then. Time has a way of healing.

 

[bdrex28]

I think a middle eastern/Mediterranean themed hotel would be kind of cool. Think a giant Riad ln Morocco. Decorative Tiles, courtyards, roof top open air restaurant. You could even put a little bazaar like a medina.

Maybe a South America/Latin American theme although I think Coronado Springs is semi this theme.

Could also do an Italian Villa theme or go more Japanese themed.

 

[CraigInPA]

I think a middle eastern/Mediterranean themed hotel would be kind of cool. Think a giant Riad ln Morocco. Decorative Tiles, courtyards, roof top open air restaurant. You could even put a little bazaar like a medina.

Maybe a South America/Latin American theme although I think Coronado Springs is semi this theme.

Could also do an Italian Villa theme or go more Japanese themed.

The original 1970's plans called for a "Persian" hotel on the shores of Bay Lake. It was cancelled after the first OPEC oil embargo. There was to be a monorail spur line running by Tomorrowland to it. The spur line exists today, but the area where the resort was to be located is presently the boat yard for the ferries.

There was also a Venetian hotel and an Asian hotel in the original plans, both to be on the Seven Seas Lagoon, and both cancelled in the wake of the OPEC embargo. The Venetian hotel site is the undeveloped area between the Contemporary and the Ticket and Transportation Center. The Asian hotel site became the Grand Floridian hotel site.

 

[bdrex28]

The original 1970's plans called for a "Persian" hotel on the shores of Bay Lake. It was cancelled after the first OPEC oil embargo. There was to be a monorail spur line running by Tomorrowland to it. The spur line exists today, but the area where the resort was to be located is presently the boat yard for the ferries.

There was also a Venetian hotel and an Asian hotel in the original plans, both to be on the Seven Seas Lagoon, and both cancelled in the wake of the OPEC embargo. The Venetian hotel site is the undeveloped area between the Contemporary and the Ticket and Transportation Center. The Asian hotel site became the Grand Floridian hotel site.

That's super interesting! Thank you. I had no idea.

Interesting how much OPEC affected WDW , I was only a kid at the time but my grandfather was a Geologist specializing in Oil exploration (I'm from Oklahoma so....).

I still think all three would be very cool themed ideas. We love the Morocco area in WDW and hated when Restaurant Marrakesh closed. Such good food and just a great themed area. We still eat at Spice Road Table every visit, but it's not the same. However, I think some of the nicest of all the wait staff have been found in Spice Road and Marrakesh.

 

[maui22]

The original 1970's plans called for a "Persian" hotel on the shores of Bay Lake. It was cancelled after the first OPEC oil embargo. There was to be a monorail spur line running by Tomorrowland to it. The spur line exists today, but the area where the resort was to be located is presently the boat yard for the ferries.

There was also a Venetian hotel and an Asian hotel in the original plans, both to be on the Seven Seas Lagoon, and both cancelled in the wake of the OPEC embargo. The Venetian hotel site is the undeveloped area between the Contemporary and the Ticket and Transportation Center. The Asian hotel site became the Grand Floridian hotel site.

Sometime in the 2009-2017 range, we saw sight balloons around the lagoon and a lot of workers in the area of the Venetian hotel site. I really thought they were going to build on that location based on all the activity we saw.

 

[holi easley]

Disney is going to do what Disney is going to do. But FWIW, I hope they increase the resort's supporting accommodations along with all those added DVC rooms. We were at the Poly last week, and it was packed! I've never seen it like this before. I got a bad feeling as I sat in the lobby an hour waiting for our room to be available watching all the other people pouring thru the front doors to check in. Sort of like the "standing room only" waiting area for Ohana's restaurant. Yes, the restaurant was that full ... from opening till closing. And forget about doing the "monorail bar crawl." There were no open seats at Tambu Lounge after 2 PM any day that I ever saw when we walked by. Both pools were packed too. Dido for Capt. Cooks quick service. I've understood the reality of Trader Sam's waiting list for years. But last week it seemed that waitng list concept applied to EVERYTHING at the Poly, even waiting for the monorail once in awhile. In spite of all my complaining, Kona Cafe let me & the misses have a seat for dinner one night when we did not have an ADR.

Sorry for the rant, but based on last week's experience I just hope Disney has the forsight to increase resturant, lounge, pool capacity, front desk staff, etc., to accommodate all the added guests these expanded DVC rooms will generate at these various resort locations.

This is what early/mid May was like. It is exactly what we saw.

 

[bdrex28]

This is what early/mid May was like. It is exactly what we saw.

It took us almost an hour to get a scoop of vanilla ice cream at the ice cream store on the Boardwalk. Not because there were two hundred people but because they had two workers doing a four person job and those two people were going at a snails pace.

I'm sure they felt overworked and no incentive to go even a normal pace.

I truly believe if Disney would go back to precovid staffing, which it definitely does not feel they are even close to, then perhaps it would be better.

 

[Cfabar1]

Now, Disney has changed the pass to specify that it's for specific conditions like Autism and ADHD, but still doesn't require a doctor's note. I don't see this problem going away, especially since influencers are now talking about ways to get the pass by claiming your child has ADHD.

This is not my area of specialty at all, but I do recall something about not being able to require doctor's notes for disability guests having to do with due to government regulations (HIPPA? ADA?)

 

[Cfabar1]

I truly believe if Disney would go back to precovid staffing, which it definitely does not feel they are even close to, then perhaps it would be better.

I'm not sure they could even if they wanted to - it is very hard to find workers right now - especially at the wages (which have gone up substantially) they get paid at WDW. My suspicion is they will look to automate as much as possible so those workers don't have to do as much.

For example, as much as people hate Disney IT, their person less hotel check in is truly an amazing service. Far superior to other systems I have used at Hilton, Hyatt, and Marriott hotels. You can truly just go right to your room at many resorts, and it has always worked, without fail for us.

 

[tjkraz]

It took us almost an hour to get a scoop of vanilla ice cream at the ice cream store on the Boardwalk. Not because there were two hundred people but because they had two workers doing a four person job and those two people were going at a snails pace.

I assume we're talking about a time at or near Epcot's closing, when large crowds are unavoidable. I don't have any first hand experience with staffing at BoardWalk Ice Cream but one of the challenges in these situations is that workers don't want short shifts, so it's harder to deal with brief spikes in traffic. If the rest of the evening is slow and steady, adding more workers on a 6 hour shift to deal with a 1-hour spike is a lot of wasted resources.

Was this the typical nightly staffing for BoardWalk Ice Cream? Did anyone call off that night?

I truly believe if Disney would go back to precovid staffing, which it definitely does not feel they are even close to, then perhaps it would be better.

I've got a family member working at WDW and visited myself 3 separate times over the last 5 months. Lack of workers doesn't appear to be a problem, and I didn't notice any obvious areas where they seemed to be deliberately under staffed. What other experiences would lead one to suggest they are "not even close" to pre-covid staffing?

 

[Cfabar1]

I've got a family member working at WDW and visited myself 3 separate times over the last 5 months. Lack of workers doesn't appear to be a problem, and I didn't notice any obvious areas where they seemed to be deliberately under staffed. What other experiences would lead one to suggest they are "not even close" to pre-covid staffing?

I think people notice things that are closed, or still "currently unavailable" or various cutbacks that are felt as staffing being lower than pre-covid. Whether that is actually the case or not who knows but just a few things come to mind:
- No more GF Orchestra
- No more Garden View Tea Room
- 1900 Park Fare JUST reopened, so staff weren't deployed there until very recently
- restaurants that maintain more limited menus or limited hours than pre-covid
- various shops/ticket booths/etc. that appear vacant when you first arrive to the parks. now, were all of these open all the time before? Who knows... but a guest sees empty facilities, sales booths, etc. and assume that there was some kind of cutback...
- Lack of streetscape performers (ex. People of Main Street, People of Hollywood)

Then there is the anecdotal "I look in the window of the restaurant, see it is half empty and can't get a reservation. I guess they don't have the staff" sort of reports I hear from folks all the time - not just at Disney....

What is cost-cutting/operational efficiency, and what is redeploying workers to be best placed for customer needs and experiences? Is employment at the parks net up or net down? I don't personally know that, but I do think when particularly public facing experiences seem empty, it makes people think staffing is lower, whether correctly or not.