*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

[Davey Jones II]

so we know the overall attendance numbers? rides that malfunctioned?

NOPE. all we know is what the reported wait times are.

those with an agenda are using their agenda to decide why something happened, but since we don't know attendance figures, ride malfunction figures, etc, etc, we can't possibly know how much impact fp+ had on reported wait times.

What we know is that this has happened since FP+ was instituted, and we know why: it takes much longer for the Mickey scanners to read your MB than it once took for a CM to eyeball your paper FPs. Countless posters on these boards have observed that with their own eyes, and described the painful process.

This is not a court of law. We can draw reasonable conclusions without going through a torturous "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of evidence. We can probably add one plus one and be pretty confident that it adds up to two.

 

[NavyDad]

Thanks for the irrelevant questions, which have exactly zilch to do with the subject at hand.

Demographics are very relevant to our entertainment choices.

In general people under age 40 are very comfortable with technology and for many it actually enhances the way they consume and access entertainment.

Older people generaly don't share that comfort level and don't understand that perspective.

I don't know for sure but I imagine Disney's primary market is younger families with teens and younger children as well as younger adults 17-35.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I'm not denying that it's worse for some. I totally understand how it would be and I've always had that stance. However, you can't say the whole system is a failure if it works for some people and the way they tour the parks.

Any system that works for a minority, but not for the majority of guests...yes, I would qualify that as a failure.

If Disney wants to maximize the guest experience (as they like to claim or imply) are they going to spend a fortune on a system if they knew that the majority of guests won't like it and be inconvienced by it?

 

[Davey Jones II]

Demographics are very relevant to our entertainment choices.

In general people under age 40 are very comfortable with technology and for many it actually enhances the way they consume and access entertainment.

Older people generaly don't share that comfort level and don't understand that perspective.

I don't know for sure but I imagine Disney's primary market is younger families with teens and younger children as well as younger adults 17-35.

Regardless of demographics, this new system is keeping everyone waiting longer in line...wheter or not they happen to be playing with a smartphone while they wait.

 

[DoughR]

The way I see it has more to do with general idea of Fastpass and not just FP+. The issue here is the "limit" of 3 FP+ per person per day. For many, it's not enough. For others it's actually more than they would have gotten throughout the day, depending on their touring interests. To make sure a 3 FP+ allowance is actually doable for all guests, Disney had to create more FP capacity than what was being offered. The most obvious solution is giving the FP option to attractions that would otherwise not need it. As Josh explains, when a line is short enough people tend to forego the option of retrieving a FP and get in standby instead, especially if retrieving that FP takes away from some sort of allowance. But when Disney is forcing you to make three choices for any and all sort of options that actually interest you at some point then why not use it? If you arrive late and all of your attractions of interest are distributed to capacity, still, why not use a FP for everything else you might do? This is especially true for Epcot and DHS. I may only have an interest in pulling a FP for Test Track but if I have to make a 2nd and 3rd choice, I'm not going to get in the standby for those unless it's a walk-on, at which point I might consider switching my FP to something else, which in turn ensures the next FP I switch to increases the standby time. If a secondary attraction is a 20 or even 15 minute wait, I might just pass it without much thought. If my wait is less time than riding the attraction itself, then sure!


So obviously FP, both old and new, will increase standby. At California adventure, Toy Story Mania has no FP and the average waits tend be around 30-40 mins. Peter Pan at Disneyland is about the same. The advanced FP reservation idea is compelling, but the current allowance that Disney is imposing will be an ongoing issue from a --somehow both-- too-little and too-much perspective.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I don't know for sure but I imagine Disney's primary market is younger families with teens and younger children as well as younger adults 17-35.

I'm in that primary market, and I would love nothing more than to leave my smartphone in the safe on vacation. Unfortunately, Disney has other plans. I will likely do "what they want", not because I want to, but because I understand how my trip will be affected if I don't. (Just like I'd prefer not to make adrs, but do because I know they are necessary.)

 

[Donut23]

We have tried it, we were curious. Seriously not for us. We had passed on WDW a while ago for DL anyway.

My concern......they can push people here....and there....and back again in the parks but will it really solve the long term problem.

The attendance goal is to bring more and more guests to WDW yet they reduced construction of attractions and worse, continue to take away "the magic". (Lights of Winter, Christmas Decorations, PUSH, entertainers, PEOPLE TO CLEAN THE LADIES ROOMS)<sorry to shout. (Teensy list of losses, I admit but trying to keep to the point.)

They can play musical chairs with people for a while, but they still have to expand their parks.

What a waste of a BILLION $$$$$. All the while they will get tepid reviews at best while the same reviewers will be screaming praises of new additions to other parks.

I saw the new Magicband WDW commercial today. Meh. Did not explain too well---too fast fir folks who had never heard of it before i suspect.

Waiting for the next section of HP. Remember when the first section opened, the lines the first day were all the way to the parking lot. Now THAT's enthusiasm and buckets of FREE advertising. The traffic helicopters were taking video. It was picked up on the National news---not ABC, of course.

Do you think Magic bands will bring people to WDW like that? Will the traffic helicopters hover over the lines at Disney to take video because no one has ever seen lines like that at Disney......for Magic Bands?


.......am I beating a dead horse here? Ok, I'll go away.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I don't believe you were really just in the parks if you observed the above. We just got back and, for example, on BTMRR they were basically letting anyone that showed up at the FP line through before letting any standby through. Sometimes, when the FP line was 'backed up' they would let 10 FPers in for every 1 standby. The FP lines are way,way,way shorter than the standby lines.

Your post seems to be saying that the CMs were bypassing the system (which I've read they do at times), just waving people through to speed it up.

Wow, is that why Disney spent $1.5 billion, so that the CMs will just give up and wave everyone through? So sometimes you don't even need a FP+ reservation, just hop in the FP line and they'll let you through.

 

[NavyDad]

Regardless of demographics, this new system is keeping everyone waiting longer in line...wheter or not they happen to be playing with a smartphone while they wait.

There is nothing to support "this new system is keeping everyone waiting longer in line".

Josh stated STBY lines are longer on many rides. He also state more people are using Fast Pass.

That means some people are now waiting less time than before. There is also a good chance some are waiting more time than before.

You are drawing the conlusions you want to draw from one piece of data that does not mean what you think it means and anecdotal evidence.

OK - now I'll get off your lawn (with my smartphone)

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

One thing that no one has mentioned yet is the fact that Josh states that FP's for Soarin' and Test Track are running out by 1:00 most days. If this is true when only onsite guest can pre-book what will it be like when (if) off site guest begin pre-booking. The only way you'll even get a FP+ to one of those is to pre-book, probably many days in advance. Too bad to those who decided to change parks that day or throw in a last minute trip.

 

[Davey Jones II]

We have tried it, we were curious. Seriously not for us. We had passed on WDW a while ago for DL anyway.

My concern......they can push people here....and there....and back again in the parks but will it really solve the long term problem.

The attendance goal is to bring more and more guests to WDW yet they reduced construction of attractions and worse, continue to take away "the magic". (Lights of Winter, Christmas Decorations, PUSH, entertainers, PEOPLE TO CLEAN THE LADIES ROOMS)<sorry to shout. (Teensy list of losses, I admit but trying to keep to the point.)

They can play musical chairs with people for a while, but they still have to expand their parks.

What a waste of a BILLION $$$$$. All the while they will get tepid reviews at best while the same reviewers will be screaming praises of new additions to other parks.

I saw the new Magicband WDW commercial today. Meh. Did not explain too well---too fast fir folks who had never heard if it before i suspect.

Waiting for the next section of HP. Remember when the first section opened, the lines the first day were all the way to the parking lot. Now THAT's enthusiasm and buckets of FREE advertising. The traffic helicopters were taking video. It was picked up on the National news---not ABC, of course.

Do you think Magic bands will bring people to WDW like that? Will the traffic helicopters hover over the lines at Disney to take video because no one has ever seen lines like that at Disney......for Magic Bands?


.......am I beating a dead horse here? Ok, I'll go away.

Not a dead horse at all, because the ride capacity vs. crowding issue is more relevant than ever.

And well said.

 

[NavyDad]

What in the world are you talking about? How has capacity been reduced?

Because instead of standing for 60 minutes in a STBY line more people are using FP and the extra 30 seconds it takes for their magic band to scan is more significant than the time they saved not standing in the STBY line.

Makes perfect sense to me....

 

[lugnut33]

We have tried it, we were curious. Seriously not for us. We had passed on WDW a while ago for DL anyway.

My concern......they can push people here....and there....and back again in the parks but will it really solve the long term problem.

The attendance goal is to bring more and more guests to WDW yet they reduced construction of attractions and worse, continue to take away "the magic". (Lights of Winter, Christmas Decorations, PUSH, entertainers, PEOPLE TO CLEAN THE LADIES ROOMS)<sorry to shout. (Teensy list of losses, I admit but trying to keep to the point.)

They can play musical chairs with people for a while, but they still have to expand their parks.

What a waste of a BILLION $$$$$. All the while they will get tepid reviews at best while the same reviewers will be screaming praises of new additions to other parks.

I saw the new Magicband WDW commercial today. Meh. Did not explain too well---too fast fir folks who had never heard of it before i suspect.

Waiting for the next section of HP. Remember when the first section opened, the lines the first day were all the way to the parking lot. Now THAT's enthusiasm and buckets of FREE advertising. The traffic helicopters were taking video. It was picked up on the National news---not ABC, of course.

Do you think Magic bands will bring people to WDW like that? Will the traffic helicopters hover over the lines at Disney to take video because no one has ever seen lines like that at Disney......for Magic Bands?


.......am I beating a dead horse here? Ok, I'll go away.

Where's the "Like" button for your post? <clapping>

No matter how you slice it and dice it, Disney has opted to try and spread out the crowds a bit instead of building new attractions in parks that are sorely in need of them. Disney doesn't care if you have to wait in line a longer, they just want to make sure they are operating at peak efficiency so Iger can have a huge payoff when he retires. And those at TDO are on board because right now it's the bean counters ruling the day.

I just thought I'd take a look back at my recommendations for a Disney trip that I wrote up after we got back from a 6 day stay back in November/December:

My recommendations for a great Disney World trip once FP- is gone:

Vacation at a slow time of year like September and first part of November. Be very selective about the time you vacation. Pull kids out of school to get the most bang for your buck.

Stay for 7 days minimum. Plan on going to MK for 3 days, EP 2 days, DHS, 2 days, and AK 1 day. Due to the limit on the number of FP+ one can get, extended vacations will allow you to use FP+ on all the main attractions.

Don't worry about park hopping unless you're interested in seeing the lesser known attractions.

Do not change your schedule the day of unless you are OK with losing your headlining FP+ appointments.

At non busy times you will want to be at the parks at least a half hour before opening..at busy times get there an hour or two ahead. This way you can see the most attractions in a day, and perhaps even ride the headliners more than once. This will become more vital as FP+ becomes more established.

It's still ok to leave for an afternoon break, just make sure you get back in time for your FP+ appointments if you planned them for the afternoon.

Be prepared for huge lines to get into FP lines. That means bring ponchos.

Work with your kids on proper magic band placement to help keep the FP+ line moving.

Schedule your FP+ rides in the afternoons or evenings when the park is most crowded. You are better off using your FP+ selections at that time instead of waiting in huge lines for all non FP+ attractions.

If it's ever offered go ahead and purchase the unlimited FP no matter how much it costs.

Hmmm, I was pretty much dead on.

 

[Mad Hattered]

You do understand that for every time someone has a mickey scan problem that someone from the Standby line gets to ride? If the scanners worked perfectly the Standby lines would be way longer than they are.

I think Disney is going to fix this. They'll add two more scanners at each FP+ ride and this problem will go away...but people will freak that the SB time on BTMRR is 80 minutes...never mind that there are only 100 people in the SB line while 5000 ride with no wait.

They are sending out half-filled (or in some cases 2 to 3 people) in a FP+ boat on POTC. Instead of filling those boats with SB they are sending them off without utilizing the ride's full capacity.

 

[redrosesix]

Seriously, I tried to stay in the argument but I just don't care what they do anymore. Tbh, the statements in the msn article make me seriously not want to give them my money -- they just don't deserve it. My $$ was probably part of that $1 billion that they wasted.

And all of this argument over a system which even they feel is so bad that they don't plan to implement it in any other parks? Yes, they're putting the spin on because they have to. They are more than $1 b over budget on this and clearly the system is having issues. But just the fact that they're not putting it into other parks...

no amount of arguing for or against FP+ is going to change that fact. Meanwhile, wdw is stuck with it because IMO there is no going back. I'm happy that article was published, because at least we as guests can start figuring out how to use this system.

 

[Davey Jones II]

What in the world are you talking about? How has capacity been reduced?

Effectively speaking, they have. Obviously, if the standby and FP lines are slower, less guests per hour can go through the rides. So that's an effective reduction in ride capacity.

 

[tarheelblue8853]

But it is more than that. I am not (solely) interested in besting the masses. I am also interested in being rewarded for spending an entire day in the park and feel that I should have the opportunity to use more of the line-cutting strategies than someone who sleeps til noon and arrives at the park at 2:00. That person gets their 3 FPs. Fine. But why should I be on the same level playing field as them? Disney has created a system whereby I must wait in a 90 minute Test Track line so that someone who had a BBB appointment and arrived at the park at 3:00 could ride the ride without a wait. They made their choice and I made mine. I chose to be at the park all day. Reward me for that.

This is actually the perfect example I was looking for. Disney doesn't want to reward you for rope dropping and using your best strategies to ride as many rides while waiting in short lines. Disney wants to reward the family that made the BBB appointment, or the character reservation because that family just put a bunch of $$$ in Disney's coffers while you were riding rides. They made their choice to give Disney more money so of course Disney wants to reward them for that!

 

[MrInfinity]

This is actually the perfect example I was looking for. Disney doesn't want to reward you for rope dropping and using your best strategies to ride as many rides while waiting in short lines. Disney wants to reward the family that made the BBB appointment, or the character reservation because that family just put a bunch of $$$ in Disney's coffers while you were riding rides. They made their choice to give Disney more money so of course Disney wants to reward them for that!

It is creating a situation in which doing such peripheral costly activities is more possible while still being able to quickly knock out some rides.

As much as the legacy FP- optimizers don't like to accept, they are simply not the most profitable for Disney to create a system for. Thus, the system is curtailed to the guests that are actually going to spend money on other things, and so Disney will make sure to get those ppl on rides, done w their rides, and off buying that $100 BBB, $100 boat ride, or $12 drinks at their pool.

What does Disney care if someone who would just ride Soarin 7 times doesn't get to do so? They're not spending money, they already paid for their AP, and all they're doing is riding Soarin.

 

[2Tiggies]

What does Disney care if someone who would just ride Soarin 7 times doesn't get to do so? They're not spending money, they already paid for their AP, and all they're doing is riding Soarin.

I get that. But people are going to sit and think carefully in the future about renewing their AP's or purchasing more days on tickets, or doing Disney at all because of this. You will always have your one-time guests who just pay and go. But I do wonder if we are under estimating the proportion of repeat visitors and AP holders and what the effect is on their plans once they have worked with or experienced the new system. I know several people who have opted not to renew AP's and have personal friends who have canceled their trips for this year, some due to the system and the way they believe it is going to impact their trip, and others who just feel it's too much like hard work to plan what is going to be a very scheduled vacation. I don't have figures to throw around to sway this one way or another but while they might be gaining guests (?) they are definitely losing them as well. I never dreamed we would be looking at alternatives to WDW for our vacations, but will be riding this one out with no plans to book another until or unless there are some changes.

 

[Planogirl]

Again, I think that it's great that THREE rides per day will be easier to handle for most people. After all, that is THREE rides that people would have either gotten FP for in the past or people would have waited in line. But THREE rides don't take long so what about the fourth, fifth and so on? And yes, I keep on stressing the 'three' on purpose.

So the goal is for people to have more time to spend money? On what? We already stay somewhere and eat so that is out. How long can we shop for generic souvenirs? (Admittedly another topic.)