Transgenders and bathrooms....

[mnrose]

I personally like the ones that protect ALL people.

And, what do you know, the law in North Carolina doesn't protect all people. Indeed, it makes it absolutely legal to actively discriminate against LBGT people and gives them (explicitly) no legal recourse whatsoever. You must HATE that law, then, right?

 

[mnrose]

That darn Loving v. Virginia Supreme Court decision started this landslide I tell ya!

It probably did. Thank goodness. I'll bet you could find people today who think that was a travesty, though.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

It probably did. Thank goodness. I'll bet you could find people today who think that was a travesty, though.

As sad as it is, I'd imagine you're right.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

And, what do you know, the law in North Carolina doesn't protect all people. Indeed, it makes it absolutely legal to actively discriminate against LBGT people and gives them (explicitly) no legal recourse whatsoever. You must HATE that law, then, right?

Actually, my comments on this thread have been exclusively about the Title IX issues with bathrooms and locker rooms in schools. Haven't yet research the NC laws. Won't comment on those until I have read everything myself.

 

[Kimberlyann11]

That darn Loving v. Virginia Supreme Court decision started this landslide I tell ya!

I think it was that Brown vs Board of Education ruling that made all those kids so uncomfortable....

 

[EMom]

Pop up changing rooms. Find them online.



See above.



They "knew or thought" - that's on them.

The solution - pop up changing room. Walmart sells them for $20

Shocking as it may be, that pop up changing room is not the be all and end all, and does not provide a solution to every problem. It really wouldn't help much, given the layout of the room in question and the wardrobe changes required. Again, some situations are different from your own.

 

[luvsJack]

Emom, may I ask what the problem exactly is about changing? A fear that a boy will claim to be transgender and not really be will get on the dance team? Or that a transgender that hasn't completely gone through all the change will?

I mentioned dd and the show choir girls changing back stage in competion. They had seconds to get out of one dress into another. Came off stage, dropped first dress and put on the second. One of the reasons they had no real issue with this was that most of the boys were gay and the ones who were not, rather than trying to sneak a peek, stood in a semi circle with their backs to the girls protecting them from the view of backstage crews. The boys really aren't these horrid little creatures that are only trying to take advantage of seeing every girl in some stage of undress or at least those weren't. They were very respectful and protective.

Also, I am not understanding why they have to undress completly. Dd's bff was on dance team and they did go back and change but they were never completely nude. My great-niece is also a dancer who competes constantly and her costume changes don't require completely stripping down either.

 

[bcla]

And, what do you know, the law in North Carolina doesn't protect all people. Indeed, it makes it absolutely legal to actively discriminate against LBGT people and gives them (explicitly) no legal recourse whatsoever. You must HATE that law, then, right?

The law doesn't explicitly allow for discrimination based on LBGT status. What it effectively does is limit civil rights protection in employment and accommodations to that under state law. The proponents couch this as providing uniformity throughout the state. Since state law doesn't have LBGT status as a protected class, Charlotte's attempt to make it as such is preempted. Theoretically if state law added LGBT status as a protected class, this law would deem it to be so statewide. You can imagine the chance of that happening.

Find a copy of the text. It's about as two-faced as anything I've ever seen. It claims that individual rights are to be protected, but effectively prevents any city or county from enacting protections based on LBGT status.

 

[EMom]

Emom, may I ask what the problem exactly is about changing? A fear that a boy will claim to be transgender and not really be will get on the dance team? Or that a transgender that hasn't completely gone through all the change will?

I mentioned dd and the show choir girls changing back stage in competion. They had seconds to get out of one dress into another. Came off stage, dropped first dress and put on the second. One of the reasons they had no real issue with this was that most of the boys were gay and the ones who were not, rather than trying to sneak a peek, stood in a semi circle with their backs to the girls protecting them from the view of backstage crews. The boys really aren't these horrid little creatures that are only trying to take advantage of seeing every girl in some stage of undress or at least those weren't. They were very respectful and protective.

Also, I am not understanding why they have to undress completly. Dd's bff was on dance team and they did go back and change but they were never completely nude. My great-niece is also a dancer who competes constantly and her costume changes don't require completely stripping down either.

The base of everything they wear is either (1) nude tights or a (2) nude body stocking. To get into either, you strip down to nothing. And in either, you might as well be naked, because you can see right through them. Sometimes they change from one to another. They wear various bras, depending on the costume, so they have to strip to nothing on top as well. Naked is naked. I can conceive that other dance groups may do things differently, surely you can do the same?

As for changing and being naked in front of someone who is still biologically male, gay or straight may not even enter into it. Some girls would readily change in front of heterosexual males, some in front of gay males, some in front of only biological females, and some are uncomfortable even doing that, but they grit their teeth and manage. I don't know why it is so hard for so many to grasp that some girls would simply not be able to manage undressing in the same room as a person who is still biologically male. If it is so easy to understand and empathize with a transgender student who doesn't want to have to undress in the same room as their biological identity, but instead with their gender identity, why is it so hard to empathize with a girl whose sense of modesty makes her uncomfortable undressing in the same room with a person of the opposite sex?

And in today's atmosphere, it is almost forbidden for a teen to speak up and say that would make them uncomfortable. To do so is to be called transphobic or worse. I'm not sure some would speak up, but instead would keep quiet so as not to be targeted and name called themselves. Again, I see a lot of tolerance running in one direction only.

 

[luvsJack]

Whoa! I was just asking a question. I asked what the fear/issue is in relation to this issue and why they strip down. I didn't say that the girls had to feel one way or the other or that they should do anything differently.

The girls in the show choir didn't strip all the way down. One dress off, one dress on and done. So we never dealt with that. A parent built some screens for them but it didn't work because the things kept falling and didn't give enough room so the guys made a screen for them. Besides they were never in less than a swim suit would show.

I would imagine given enough time having to do what you describe, those girls will lose a lot of their modesty but they have every right to feel the way they do. I am sure at some point in time the schools or venues are going to have to take more into consideration than just a room to change. Whether its in changing the room or in what the girls have to do to change.

 

[EMom]

If I'm a little short, it's because no matter how many times I say they strip down to nothing, someone always challenges that and asks why. They say their daughter/granddaughter/best friend's sister's stepdaughter doesn't strip down all the way, so surely my DD's dance team doesn't have to. It gets old.

I've tried to give a thorough explanation in an attempt to answer all the whys. Her team is not unusual. It's the norm for the type of team she's on.

Yes, by the time they are seniors they are less modest. The freshmen and sophomores have the most problems with undressing in the same room as other girls. And that's fairly predictable and normal too.

 

[pocomom]

Emom, may I ask what the problem exactly is about changing? A fear that a boy will claim to be transgender and not really be will get on the dance team? Or that a transgender that hasn't completely gone through all the change will?

I mentioned dd and the show choir girls changing back stage in competion. They had seconds to get out of one dress into another. Came off stage, dropped first dress and put on the second. One of the reasons they had no real issue with this was that most of the boys were gay and the ones who were not, rather than trying to sneak a peek, stood in a semi circle with their backs to the girls protecting them from the view of backstage crews. The boys really aren't these horrid little creatures that are only trying to take advantage of seeing every girl in some stage of undress or at least those weren't. They were very respectful and protective.

Also, I am not understanding why they have to undress completly. Dd's bff was on dance team and they did go back and change but they were never completely nude. My great-niece is also a dancer who competes constantly and her costume changes don't require completely stripping down either.

Even our swim team kids manage to change without getting completely naked, and they are very quick about it.
But I do know two families that stopped swimming because one girl was overweight and was uncomfortable changing in the locker room, and another religious/modest family who was also uncomfortable with the locker rooms.

The problem with many of these situations is that there are many girls or boys who probably feel uncomfortable with how things are now anyway. There should be an option for a degree of privacy always, this would be how we include the most people. But I don't think that a lack of privacy should be an excuse for not changing things.

 

[Hrhpd]

If I'm a little short, it's because no matter how many times I say they strip down to nothing, someone always challenges that and asks why. They say their daughter/granddaughter/best friend's sister's stepdaughter doesn't strip down all the way, so surely my DD's dance team doesn't have to. It gets old.

I've tried to give a thorough explanation in an attempt to answer all the whys. Her team is not unusual. It's the norm for the type of team she's on.

Yes, by the time they are seniors they are less modest. The freshmen and sophomores have the most problems with undressing in the same room as other girls. And that's fairly predictable and normal too.

So, if the school provides a gender neutral bathroom which, at least in our school district, is a single use bathroom, why couldn't the girls that are uncomfortable change in there? The gender neutral bathrooms are for anyone, hence the term neutral. Nobody is being forced to be uncomfortable.

 

[SirDuff]

If I'm a little short, it's because no matter how many times I say they strip down to nothing, someone always challenges that and asks why. They say their daughter/granddaughter/best friend's sister's stepdaughter doesn't strip down all the way, so surely my DD's dance team doesn't have to. It gets old.

I've tried to give a thorough explanation in an attempt to answer all the whys. Her team is not unusual. It's the norm for the type of team she's on.

Yes, by the time they are seniors they are less modest. The freshmen and sophomores have the most problems with undressing in the same room as other girls. And that's fairly predictable and normal too.

It is. But it sounds like they are just told to deal with it. Why is it okay to ignore their feelings here but then have their feelings become a stumbling block only when the issue of transgender dancers is raised?

 

[EMom]

So, if the school provides a gender neutral bathroom which, at least in our school district, is a single use bathroom, why couldn't the girls that are uncomfortable change in there? The gender neutral bathrooms are for anyone, hence the term neutral. Nobody is being forced to be uncomfortable.

1. In our case, too much distance with too many costume pieces and too little time. We are off in a wing with no classrooms or bathrooms, which is why we have a two stall bathroom of our own. It's sometimes barely feasible as it is to make costume changes in time. We have been at contests with coed teams and they get an extra room for the boys, but that means a disproportionate number of girls squeeze into another room or they pay more for the extra boys' room.
2. Apparently, gender neutral bathrooms don't satisfy the Dept of Ed if you're transgender, but only if you're not. To me, it's a practical numbers issue. In a school our size, the number of modest "I'm not comfortable changing in front of the opposite sex even if they are transgender" students would likely outnumber the transgender students the government now says can't be made to use a third gender neutral changing room. Possibly by a long shot. Schools do not have the money to solve this mandated problem. It really wasn't thought through, and certainly the comfort of all students wasn't considered.

 

[EMom]

It is. But it sounds like they are just told to deal with it. Why is it okay to ignore their feelings here but then have their feelings become a stumbling block only when the issue of transgender dancers is raised?

I suppose because it's one thing to say, "Look, you're all females and all have the same parts, so just change because it comes with the territory." As much as some ignore it, gender is one thing and biological sex is another. Changing in front of a biological male is a no go for many girls, especially those raised in more religious homes. And there's no sense carrying on that Americans are too uptight and it is different in Europe. Since we are talking about the U.S., its norms are the standard.

 

[Uncle Remus]

I suppose because it's one thing to say, "Look, you're all females and all have the same parts, so just change because it comes with the territory." As much as some ignore it, gender is one thing and biological sex is another. Changing in front of a biological male is a no go for many girls, especially those raised in more religious homes. And there's no sense carrying on that Americans are too uptight and it is different in Europe. Since we are talking about the U.S., its norms are the standard.

The norm now is that we as a country treat minorities with the same civil liberties and rights that the majority of citizens enjoy.

 

[kamik86]

1. In our case, too much distance with too many costume pieces and too little time. We are off in a wing with no classrooms or bathrooms, which is why we have a two stall bathroom of our own. It's sometimes barely feasible as it is to make costume changes in time. We have been at contests with coed teams and they get an extra room for the boys, but that means a disproportionate number of girls squeeze into another room or they pay more for the extra boys' room.
2. Apparently, gender neutral bathrooms don't satisfy the Dept of Ed if you're transgender, but only if you're not. To me, it's a practical numbers issue. In a school our size, the number of modest "I'm not comfortable changing in front of the opposite sex even if they are transgender" students would likely outnumber the transgender students the government now says can't be made to use a third gender neutral changing room. Possibly by a long shot. Schools do not have the money to solve this mandated problem. It really wasn't thought through, and certainly the comfort of all students wasn't considered.

To your point 2. The problem is you can't make the transgendered student feel singled out that they have to go change somewhere else with more distance and time that makes things more difficult to them just because they are transgendered. If someone CHOSE this path because they are uncomfortable changing with everyone else that is ok, but every student needs to be given the choice.

Honestly I don't think it is right to make those that are uncomfortable change in front of other girls. I think the school should have to provide a solution for everyone. As you said you already had someone quit the team because they were too uncomfortable with this. So you singled someone out. Now if that reason was religon your school just got lucky that they didn't make it a suit for inclusion since religion would actually also be a protected class and may just force the school to solve the problem of better changing areas. Well that or do away with the dance team.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I suppose because it's one thing to say, "Look, you're all females and all have the same parts, so just change because it comes with the territory." As much as some ignore it, gender is one thing and biological sex is another. Changing in front of a biological male is a no go for many girls, especially those raised in more religious homes. And there's no sense carrying on that Americans are too uptight and it is different in Europe. Since we are talking about the U.S., its norms are the standard.

The norms are changing so all people have the same protections and rights, all are treated with basic dignity and respect.
I understand the situation you are describing and how that would be uncomfortable for more than a few girls. There's a few issues though. Those girls are likely uncomfortable with the changing area to begin with yet that isn't enough to change it so their level of comfort is currently being dismissed. What if there's a lesbian member? Would it need to be addressed if the girls were uncomfortable changing in front of her?
I can totally understand being uncomfortable but that transgender member would be a girl. She'd want to be just one of the girls, not singled out as different. It takes time to change the norm and the comfort levels of people but you can never do that if you don't start somewhere.
Where would a transgender member change? You've painted a picture of there basically being no way to easily change the situation. If you want the transgender member to use a different changing area, where would that be in the situation you've described because it doesn't sound like an option from what you've described.

 

[EMom]

To your point 2. The problem is you can't make the transgendered student feel singled out that they have to go change somewhere else with more distance and time that makes things more difficult to them just because they are transgendered. If someone CHOSE this path because they are uncomfortable changing with everyone else that is ok, but every student needs to be given the choice.

Honestly I don't think it is right to make those that are uncomfortable change in front of other girls. I think the school should have to provide a solution for everyone. As you said you already had someone quit the team because they were too uncomfortable with this. So you singled someone out. Now if that reason was religon your school just got lucky that they didn't make it a suit for inclusion since religion would actually also be a protected class and may just force the school to solve the problem of better changing areas. Well that or do away with the dance team.

Actually, someone else made the point about a student quitting the team.

And seriously? We now single out 14 year old girls for being too uncomfortable to undress in front of a biological male? (even if they would undress in front of other girls) We have lost our minds.