Transgender Gym Mess

[FlightlessDuck]

Are you purposely putting words in my mouth because you are looking for an argument?

I'm just trying to understand your point as to why it's not the same thing as race. I think I'm beginning to understand a little, since "race reassignment surgery" isn't a Thing. But I can't say I agree. Then again, I'm a white straight cis male, so I can't say I can understand the life of a transgender or a minority. The closest I get is seeing the struggles of my college roommate as she is currently transitioning.

 

[SMD]

When you shut people down who want to have an open dialogue about a sensitive issue and who may say things that don't necessarily agree with your own POV, you yourself are contributing to the phobia. Congratulations for being part of the problem. When you call names and point fingers, people are forced to keep their thoughts to themselves, eventually becoming angry and even more bitter about the topic at hand and keeping the phobia going. Remember, just because you're offended doesn't mean you're automatically right.

This incident is a wonderful opportunity to discuss peoples comforts and discomforts with what happened. Instead of judging others yourself, why don't you give us time to get used to what's going on and work out how we feel about it? Just because someone says they're uncomfortable with it at this point in time doesn't mean they're not going to be fairly comfortable with it later. A large part of that changing of the mind would be because they talked about it with people who listened, empathized, and then brought up some points that the uncomfortable person may not have thought of.

The post you quoted said there's transphobia in the thread. It didn't call anyone a name and didn't point a finger at anyone. I could point out some transphobic and judgmental posts in the thread, if you think that will add to discussing people's comforts and discomforts. If people are allowed to express their discomfort they can do so respectfully. Not everyone has to agree with the way others express their discomfort. It may be best to discuss just this incident and not make generalizations, which were some of the more polarizing negative statements.

 

[Klismania]

The article states the transgender woman was in tights and over-sized t-shirt. These are photos from her Facebook account, not actual photos from how she was dressed at the gym. It also states that she was in there only to retrieve items, not to undress.

"Sklodowska now claims that she believes she is the transgender woman Cormier saw and that she had only used the changing area on two separate visits to hang her purse and coat and to pick up her items after working out."

"Sklodowska said she wore leggings and a baggy T-shirt on both gym trips. She added that she understood why Cormier would see her body structure as masculine, because many people tell her she looks like a man."

I predict that Sklodowska is going to be getting a whole lot more support than she ever dreamed was possible because of this woman. I may be an optimist but my feeling is that there is fear and discomfort around the whole transgender thing because many of us don't even know a transgender person. We simply don't understand what we haven't encountered. Once you get past that fear of the unknown and start talking to and interacting with people who you don't understand (or may actively fear), the barriers come down and people start living alongside each other more comfortably.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[Klismania]

The post you quoted said there's transphobia in the thread. It didn't call anyone a name and didn't point a finger at anyone. I could point out some transphobic and judgmental posts in the thread, if you think that will add to discussing people's comforts and discomforts. If people are allowed to express their discomfort they can do so respectfully. Not everyone has to agree with the way others express their discomfort. It may be best to discuss just this incident and not make generalizations, which were some of the more polarizing negative statements.

The post referred to trans phobia and called people hateful. I stand by my remark as well as my suggestion that folks just simmer down and don't automatically revert to shutting other people's opinions down because they consider those opinions politically incorrect.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Are you purposely putting words in my mouth because you are looking for an argument?

I responded to a post about how not being able to chose your race and how it compares to not being able to choose what gender you are. All I did is simply state the fact that one can choose to PHYSICALLY change their gender to the one they identify with. I never stated my stance on it either way. If you want to know, I don't care what you do, if you happy with who you are and how you look, good for you. If you feel you need to alter your physical self to be more aligned with who you are then good for you too.
Good lord people, stop looking for an argument when there is nothing to argue about.

If you read the article, it's clear that the woman in question never took her clothes off. So, if she was discriminated against it was for "looking" male, that is for having broad shoulders, and a more masculine facial structure. If I had to guess, I'd think she's probably taller than the average woman too, although it's hard to tell since she's alone in the photo. I can absolutely see how without make up (I'm guessing that she doesn't work out with make up although maybe some people do) she could be considered to have a masculine appearance. But surgery wouldn't change that. There's no surgery that gives a woman "female" shoulders, or makes her suddenly shorter. So, I'm not sure why surgery would make a difference in this case.

 

[Dawnlight]

I predict that Sklodowska is going to be getting a whole lot more support than she ever dreamed was possible because of this woman. I may be an optimist but my feeling is that there is fear and discomfort around the whole transgender thing because many of us don't even know a transgender person. We simply don't understand what we haven't encountered. Once you get past that fear of the unknown and start talking to and interacting with people who you don't understand (or may actively fear), the barriers come down and people start living alongside each other more comfortably.

But maybe that's just me.

I agree. Take a look at the blog I posted a page or two back.

 

[SMD]

But this isn't about race, and there really is no comparison. This is about a person who is physically and appears to be a male in a changing room designated for women.

Well in this case you can choose what gender you physically identify with. The woman was uncomfortable because she thought there was a man in the changing room with her. If you don't understand the difference between that and race then there really isn't much more I can say.

You obviously missed the word "physically" in my post. A transgender woman can choose to live physically as a man or take the steps necessary to become a woman physically. That is what I meant, obviously they can't choose the way they feel but they most certainly can choose they way they look. And I'm talking about an adult with the means for surgery, not an infant out of the womb.

It's not as simple as dipping into your savings or line of credit to remove or add a spoiler to your car and get a new paint job. Then voila, you have a new car in under a week. Being a man or a woman is not just some hormone treatments and a few surgeries, which anyone can choose and are readily available. Your posts imply that people should suppress who they are until they can meet someone else's physical description of what is a man or woman.

 

[Kayabee]

I'm just trying to understand your point as to why it's not the same thing as race. I think I'm beginning to understand a little, since "race reassignment surgery" isn't a Thing. But I can't say I agree. Then again, I'm a white straight cis male, so I can't say I can understand the life of a transgender or a minority. The closest I get is seeing the struggles of my college roommate as she is currently transitioning.

Yes, all I meant is that someone can change their gender by surgery if they choose too. I realize there are many factors that make that a real possibility in specific cases (finances, age, etc) but in general the fact is it is possible to change your gender physically.

 

[Kayabee]

It's not as simple as dipping into your savings or line of credit to remove or add a spoiler to your car and get a new paint job. Then voila, you have a new car in under a week. Being a man or a woman is not just some hormone treatments and a few surgeries, which anyone can choose and are readily available. Your posts imply that people should suppress who they are until they can meet someone else's physical description of what is a man or woman.

My posts don't imply anything other than it is possible for one to change their physical gender.

What you read in to my posts are solely your thoughts, not mine.

 

[SMD]

The post referred to trans phobia and called people hateful. I stand by my remark as well as my suggestion that folks just simmer down and don't automatically revert to shutting other people's opinions down because they consider those opinions politically incorrect.

There was a comment before the post that I felt could be described as hateful and there has been another since. I felt that those posts went beyond not politically correct. Are you saying that people can't make general comments about how opinions are expressed? Is it the word hateful that's a problem? I could use detestable, vile or nasty if that better expresses them.

 

[SMD]

My posts don't imply anything other than it is possible for one to change their physical gender.

What you read in to my posts are solely your thoughts, not mine.

So you're not saying that if transgender woman physically looks like a man then they shouldn't use female facilities? Because you said that a transgender woman can choose to live physically as a man and you said the issue was a man in the women's changing room. But there was a transgender woman in the women's changing room, not a man.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

"He totally looked like a man. He was not dressed like a woman at all."

This gets touchy. As stated above, if a transgendered person appears as male, whether before or after transition, person should use male restrooms. If a transgendered person appears female, then person should use female restroom. I think it was wrong and insensitive for the person in the article to use the female facilities while still appearing male.

What if this was a trans man who presented as a man and started hormone therapy but actually didn't have surgery? So, while he looks like a man, he still have female genitalia. So he was using the women's lockroom so the men didn't feel uncomfortable.

Am I the only one who would think that was funny?

 

[Kayabee]

So you're not saying that if transgender woman physically looks like a man then they shouldn't use female facilities? Because you said that a transgender woman can choose to live physically as a man and you said the issue was a man in the women's changing room. But there was a transgender woman in the women's changing room, not a man.

I never said it was my issue, I said it was "the" issue. I assumed those reading would know I was referring to the story in the OP. The woman complained because she thought the transgender woman was a man.
I can understand a woman feeling uneasy (from a safety POV) with a a male coming in to a woman's changing area, where you may be nude, or in the process of undressing.The woman in the OP thought she was a man for whatever reason.
The changing gender comment came from a reply about not being able to change race or gender, it wasn't specifically about the transgender woman in the OP story, or anyone else.
**I just re-read my post, and I did say "In this case" one can change their gender. I meant in the case of transgender, I wasn't trying to imply that the woman in the OP should change anything about herself. I'm sorry for any confusion. **

Personally I don't have a problem with a transgender woman, even one who hasn't had a complete sex change operation, using the female locker room. If they have lived their life as a woman, and feel they are a woman why would they use the mens. It would be like me using the men's room, and that is not happening lol.

 

[ronandannette]

There was a comment before the post that I felt could be described as hateful and there has been another since. I felt that those posts went beyond not politically correct. Are you saying that people can't make general comments about how opinions are expressed? Is it the word hateful that's a problem? I could use detestable, vile or nasty if that better expresses them.

Certainly not, but in a plain reading, you've expressed far more vitriol directly towards me, Low-key and Gumbo than any of our comments, which were general to the subject, not an individual, did. And you may judge me any way you choose - it doesn't make your label of "hateful" accurate. I hate no one. In fact I believe the "inner man" (woman/person - sorry, it's just a turn of phrase) is of worth beyond measure and not to be weighed by gender or sexuality, both of which are temporal things.

 

[KatheeME]

Has anyone heard the story of the Planet Fitness Gym In Michigan?
I can't get my phone to copy a link right now but it's easy to find.

It seems a female member complained about a transgender person who identified themselves as female using the women's changing/restrooms.

The woman was told not to talk about it with other gym members.
Apparently she continued to voice her concerns and her membership was revoked.

To me the whole think seems ridiculous on all sides.

I can see the woman's POV not wanting to use the changing room with a male, even though they want to be female.

But, unless she felt threatened or scared by the person (which the article does not say she did) what was the huge deal.

But again, although the transgender person may feel like, look like and act like a woman, they technically are not and should probably not be using a public women's changing room.

I just don't see a good solution here.

Thoughts?

 

[Dawnlight]

What if this was a trans man who presented as a man and started hormone therapy but actually didn't have surgery? So, while he looks like a man, he still have female genitalia. So he was using the women's lockroom so the men didn't feel uncomfortable.

Am I the only one who would think that was funny?

I think in this case that person should use the male facilities. He presents as male. I don't care what's in anyone's underpants; for me that is not the determining factor over which restroom to use. You present male, identify as male=male facilities. You present female, identify as female=female facilities.

 

[KatheeME]

HE is now a SHE, get a grip. I am sorry if my reply seems harsh, and I have not read all the replies, but this is ridiculous.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I think in this case that person should use the male facilities. He presents as male. I don't care what's in anyone's underpants; for me that is not the determining factor over which restroom to use. You present male, identify as male=male facilities. You present female, identify as female=female facilities.

I agree. But see... then, maybe the men might complain (but only if they were looking), hence the ironic humor.

 

[Planogirl]

I'm glad to see that so many on the DIS are so enlightened. Personally I think that tolerance is lacking on both sides of the issue.

 

[Chocolate Cake]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...omen-s-locker-room-twice-hang-coat-purse.html

Here is a picture of the transgender woman. She is obviously trying to identify as a woman. Although, she needs help in the fashion arena I want to give her a makeover.