Transgender Gym Mess

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I'm glad to see that so many on the DIS are so enlightened. Personally I think that tolerance is lacking on both sides of the issue.

Honestly, in this case the gym designed their changing room to have stalls where people can go if they don't want to see or be seen. They also didn't get upset when they were asked initially, they simply explained their policy. The trans woman in this case seem very accommodating. She was proactive about asking which locker room she should use to store her things, and didn't linger or change in the locker room, just went in, dropped off and retrieved her things, and left. She was also very careful not to be judgmental in her comments, acknowledging that some people find her appearance masculine, and not judging the other woman for asking the question.

People have said that they understand why the woman was startled, and why she asked, but when the gym policy was explained to her she should have either accepted it, started using a stall rather than changing out in the open, or found a new gym. When she chose to do none of those things, and instead tried to incite trouble, Planet Fitness chose for her.

 

[Geoff_M]

So, I guess this person can use whatever locker room he/she feels like on any given day, right?

Waking beside her boyfriend each morning teenager Krystal Griggs never knows what mood he'll be in.

But rather than predicting good or bad, the 18-year-old has to choose between male or female.

For Ryan Wigley is bi-gender. He faces the difficult choice every day of whether to dress as a man or woman.

While most people need only pick from a selection of dresses, or smart shirts, he has rails full of both.

His outfit choice will depend on which gender he has woken up feeling like that day.

...gotta love these 21st Century Relationships!

 

[Gracie09]

But this isn't about race, and there really is no comparison. This is about a person who is physically and appears to be a male in a changing room designated for women.

No but 50 years ago there were black changing rooms and white ones. There were light skinned black people passing as white. Gender, like race, is not easily defined. (See my above post about men who have XXY chromosomes.) A person's physical appearance may not be indicative of their internal beliefs. Just like 50 or 60 years ago, it would have been though impossible that black and white people can change in the same changing room, things change. And although there may not be a surgery to change the color of a person's skin, there are products that attempt to do just that.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

So, I guess this person can use whatever locker room he/she feels like on any given day, right?

...gotta love these 21st Century Relationships!

Planet Fitness told the woman in this story that she should use the locker room that matched her clothing.

 

[Shutterbug]

I remember reading that Planet Fitness told a woman she had to cover up her because other members felt they were being intimidated by her toned body.

 

[erin1715]

This entire topic of trans man/trans woman is just confusing to me and I'm an adult. I can't imagine a child trying to understand this. I'm also confused about another thing that is somewhat related (sexuality and gender). So, a person is supposedly born gay or straight, right? That's the argument you hear nowadays. But a person is NOT born with the correct gender? I'm not saying I have the answers but that is something I have wondered about.

 

[mjkacmom]

People are born feeling like they were born the wrong sex. I saw a documentary on this over 10 years ago, and it's a real condition. For example, a woman feels like she was born in the wrong body, doesn't identify as a lesbian, but as a straight man. I find that kids are a lot less confused over this issues than adults.

 

[ronandannette]

This entire topic of trans man/trans woman is just confusing to me and I'm an adult. I can't imagine a child trying to understand this. I'm also confused about another thing that is somewhat related (sexuality and gender). So, a person is supposedly born gay or straight, right? That's the argument you hear nowadays. But a person is NOT born with the correct gender? I'm not saying I have the answers but that is something I have wondered about.

I have had the same thoughts myself. It seems extremely counter-intuitive that you can "choose" your gender (something that's genetically determined) but not your sexuality (something that isn't, or at least has not been empirically proven to be).

 

[mjkacmom]

I have had the same thoughts myself. It seems extremely counter-intuitive that you can "choose" your gender (something that's genetically determined) but not your sexuality (something that isn't, or at least has not been empirically proven to be).

The point is, they're not choosing. Most have felt like they have been the wrong sex since early childhood.

 

[shoney]

I have had the same thoughts myself. It seems extremely counter-intuitive that you can "choose" your gender (something that's genetically determined) but not your sexuality (something that isn't, or at least has not been empirically proven to be).

I don't think a transgender person "chose" the gender they were assigned at birth. It was what was given to them. If they had a choice, than I am going to assume, they would have picked the opposite one.

 

[Chocolate Cake]

So, I guess this person can use whatever locker room he/she feels like on any given day, right?

...gotta love these 21st Century Relationships!

This is interesting. I wonder how it comes into play with private institutions like all girl colleges or an all boys' boarding school.

 

[Geoff_M]

This is interesting. I wonder how it comes into play with private institutions like all girl colleges or an all boys' boarding school.

Funny you should mentioned that: When Women Become Men at Wellesley. and Wellesley Will Admit Transgender Students for the First Time.
There's also this interesting angle... One of the groups that has many members not too keen to endorse the gender charade are feminists, who literally view transgender "females" as "wolves in sheep's clothing."

 

[LBIJim]

Everyone mentions changing in a stall if you're uncomfortable being seen. Aside from the fact many locker rooms have no stalls, was this even the reason for the complaint? Is the problem that she didn't want him to see her naked? Or is the problem that she didn't want to see HIM naked?

This particular locker room did have private lockable cubicles for showering and changing, so I don't know the specific problem the complaining woman had. I suspect it's because of what she MIGHT see, what MIGHT happen, who MIGHT see her.

So, I guess this person can use whatever locker room he/she feels like on any given day, right?

...gotta love these 21st Century Relationships!

I suppose the choice of locker room would be restricted to whatever clothing/hair/makeup he/she decided upon for the day. No woman's locker room on days she dresses like a man, and no men's locker room when he's dressed like a woman.

 

[tinatark]

The title of this thread has it right. A mess.

I can see where the lady who repeated to her friends that PF let a "man" in the ladies locker room would have been flabbergasted, first by seeing him/her in the room, second, by the gym's answer to her inquiry about the guest of a member who was using the "wrong" locker room with the gym's blessing.

We occasionally go to high end spas with separated, "European" (clothing optional) pools/sauna/hot tubs, etc... I would be shocked to find a "lady" with male parts in one of those!

Not sure what the right answer is. All separate dressing cubes?

I see a well funded gofundme account in Carlotta's future!

 

[FlightlessDuck]

This entire topic of trans man/trans woman is just confusing to me and I'm an adult. I can't imagine a child trying to understand this. I'm also confused about another thing that is somewhat related (sexuality and gender). So, a person is supposedly born gay or straight, right? That's the argument you hear nowadays. But a person is NOT born with the correct gender? I'm not saying I have the answers but that is something I have wondered about.

Trans people deny that gender is a binary construct and that gender is fluid or complex. While they have the chromosomes and/or genitals of a certain gender, and they believe they have the personality of a different gender. That's the best explanation I can give as a straight cis male.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

http://iamtransgendered.com/Sex_And_Genetics.aspx

Genetic Gender vs Physical Gender vs "Brain Gender"

http://www.transgendercare.com/guidance/what_is_gender.htm

Note that gender is different than sexual orientation. The only trans person I know personally is a lesbian. Assigned male at birth, she is transitioning to woman, but is attracted to women.

 

[ronandannette]

Trans people deny that gender is a binary construct and that gender is fluid or complex. While they have the chromosomes and/or genitals of a certain gender, and they believe they have the personality of a different gender. That's the best explanation I can give as a straight cis male.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

http://iamtransgendered.com/Sex_And_Genetics.aspx

Genetic Gender vs Physical Gender vs "Brain Gender"

http://www.transgendercare.com/guidance/what_is_gender.htm

Note that gender is different than sexual orientation. The only trans person I know personally is a lesbian. Assigned male at birth, she is transitioning to woman, but is attracted to women.

Sorry - I've never seen this abbreviation before: cls. What does it mean?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Sorry - I've never seen this abbreviation before: cls. What does it mean?

Cis is short for "cisgender", which are people whose gender identity match the gender assigned to them at birth. AKA "gender normative", although use of that term applies a quality of "abnormality" to transgender individuals.

It took me about a year of seeing the word used to go from being kind of upset by the idea that the word has to exist to just accepting the fact that it's a way of identifying myself as non-trans as opposed to just assuming everyone realizes that.

"cis" is a prefix from Latin, meaning "on this side of", as opposed to "trans" ("across", "beyond", "through”)

The term goes back to about 2006 (or 1998, if you include "cissexual").

 

[SirDuff]

Sorry - I've never seen this abbreviation before: cls. What does it mean?

It is not an abbreviation (and it is CIS, not CLS - I not L). Cisgender is (essentially) the opposite of transgender - cisgendered people self identify with the gender that matches the biological sex with which they were born. I assume it comes from the same latin base as when you use cis/trans in chemistry or genetics (cis="on this side").

 

[SMD]

Cis is short for "cisgender", which are people whose gender identity match the gender assigned to them at birth. AKA "gender normative", although use of that term applies a quality of "abnormality" to transgender individuals.

It took me about a year of seeing the word used to go from being kind of upset by the idea that the word has to exist to just accepting the fact that it's a way of identifying myself as non-trans as opposed to just assuming everyone realizes that.

I felt the same way. I first saw it used in a rant on Facebook, so that didn't help. Cis is the antonym prefix to trans, I get that. But I sort of felt like, hey, I didn't choose the label trans for you, why do you get to choose cis for me? I do think it needs to be explained better, since most of the times I see it used it's by a transgender person with some (justified or not) axe to grind. I feel like if it were a more commonly used term, like if it were used in news articles and explained then it wouldn't irk me as much. But when you used it I knew what you were saying and it fir perfectly in your context.

 

[ronandannette]

Thank you to those who provided the definition/explaination.