The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[Intr3pid]

I saw in the New York Times that the experts think we need to continue to wear masks after being vaccinated, because we still might be contagious. This seems to be at odds with some previous guidance. Also, they asked us to get flu shots to protect others. What is it about getting a flu shot that protects others, but getting a coronavirus vaccine might not?

Because COVID is a lot more contagious than the flu:
https://newsroom.osfhealthcare.org/covid-19-more-contagious--deadly-than-flu/
That may still be OK - except that while there are a range of treatments available for the flu - you can walk up to a pharmacy and grab a pill for less than $10 - there is nothing really for COVID. If you are infecting a lot more people with your virus, some of them will invariably need a treatment to survive.

 

[jane01jp]

Because COVID is a lot more contagious than the flu:
https://newsroom.osfhealthcare.org/covid-19-more-contagious--deadly-than-flu/
That may still be OK - except that while there are a range of treatments available for the flu - you can walk up to a pharmacy and grab a pill for less than $10 - there is nothing really for COVID. If you are infecting a lot more people with your virus, some of them will invariably need a treatment to survive.

Thanks for the additional info! I've been on 21 DCL cruises, but I have so many questions about the covid science.

 

[tvguy]

So, was masking widespread in the early days of the polio vaccine? Any mandates? And, if wearing masks could help during bad flu seasons, would masks have been required anyway (that is, even if COVID had never existed)? We've never worn masks for bad flu seasons before.

Yes we have worn masks for the flu in the U.S. During the 1918 Flu pandemic, if you didn't wear a mask, they put you in jail. https://www.history.com/news/1918-pandemic-public-health-campaigns

 

[_auroraborealis_]

So, was masking widespread in the early days of the polio vaccine? Any mandates? And, if wearing masks could help during bad flu seasons, would masks have been required anyway (that is, even if COVID had never existed)? We've never worn masks for bad flu seasons before.

As someone else stated, there were absolutely mask mandates in 1918.

Polio is spread when the stool of an infected person is introduced into the mouth of another person through contaminated water or food (fecal-oral transmission). So masks were not a relevant prevention mechanism. My reference to the polio vaccine was more that they didn't know if the vaccine prevented transmission, much as we do not know this about any of the C19 vax candidates. That is a data point that only emerges over observational time.

 

[jane01jp]

As someone else stated, there were absolutely mask mandates in 1918.

Polio is spread when the stool of an infected person is introduced into the mouth of another person through contaminated water or food (fecal-oral transmission). So masks were not a relevant prevention mechanism. My reference to the polio vaccine was more that they didn't know if the vaccine prevented transmission, much as we do not know this about any of the C19 vax candidates. That is a data point that only emerges over observational time.

Thanks Aurora!

 

[jane01jp]

Yes we have worn masks for the flu in the U.S. During the 1918 Flu pandemic, if you didn't wear a mask, they put you in jail. https://www.history.com/news/1918-pandemic-public-health-campaigns

Interesting. I wonder how long the mandates lasted? (Never mind. It looks like the mask mandate in San Francisco started November 1 and ended November 11 - a 10-day period, and that they tried to do a second one later, but it met with a lot of resistance). Also, was there ever a vaccine for the 1918 Spanish flu? If not, did it just go away?

 

[tvguy]

Interesting. I wonder how long the mandates lasted? (Never mind. It looks like the mask mandate in San Francisco started November 1 and ended November 11 - a 10-day period, and that they tried to do a second one later, but it met with a lot of resistance). Also, was there ever a vaccine for the 1918 Spanish flu? If not, did it just go away?

No such thing as vaccines in 1918. This article puts it this way, victims either died or gain immunity and after 2 years it started fading. https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic

 

[gotomu212]

If you read the entire article it says the reason for not locking into Pfizer was that at the time, it was not known which vaccine would be approved. Isn't that like the saying, Don't put all your eggs in one basket? Or also, Don't count your chicks before they hatch?
What if the Moderna vaccine was approved today but we were locked into so many with Pfizer? It's difficult to predict what will happen with research 6 months in advance.

It also says they still have the option to buy 500 million doses from Pfizer.

"Under its contract with Pfizer, the Trump administration committed to buy an initial 100 million doses, with an option to purchase as many as five times more."

So in the meantime, Moderna is expected to be approved later this month which will give the US another 85-100 million doses. Moderna to supply up to 125 million COVID-19 vaccine doses globally in first quarter | Reuters

Between these 2 companies alone, it would give a vaccine to every American who wanted one.

Im still annoyed we didn’t buy the faster options on Pfizer. They were options and dependent on getting approval meaning if they weren’t approved we were out no money. If every single one was approved we would have been able to resell those options to other countries. This is one area where I would not have minded government overspending if we ended up in the fantastic position of having too much vaccine for our population. We spend billions on weapons system, “too much” vaccine at millions$$ would be the least of my worries.

 

[jane01jp]

No such thing as vaccines in 1918. This article puts it this way, victims either died or gain immunity and after 2 years it started fading. https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic

Thanks tvguy!

 

[Intr3pid]

It looks like AZ and the Russian Sputnik producers want a meeting of the minds after all:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/cor...to-work-on-vaccine-with-russias-gamaleya.html
It might give more legitimacy to the Russian vaccine. (Some will still hold their nose.)

 

[jane01jp]

I just read that the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, which employs 89 thousand, will not require mandatory COVID vaccines. Here is some of their statement:

From PennLive:

"The main reason is general uncertainty about the COVID-19 vaccine -- the first of several vaccines in the pipeline could receive emergency approval from the U.S. government this month, possibly within days. UPMC is preparing to begin offering COVID-19 vaccine to front-line health care workers as soon as this month.​

​

Dr. Graham Snyder, UPMC's medical director of infection prevention and hospital epidemiology, said UPMC's mandatory flu vaccination policy "is based on decades of experience with the influenza vaccine."​

​

But there's no comparable data for a COVID-19 vaccine, or on whether a mandate is the best way to get large numbers of people to become vaccinated, Snyder said on Tuesday."​

Here's what Dr. Graham Snyder, UPMC's medical director of infection prevention and hospital epidemiology, said about that:

"Until we learn more and build our own experience with this vaccine, plus, until we see the uptake of vaccine in our communities, and have an understanding about the role that vaccination has in ending this pandemic, it's not the right thing to make it mandatory [for our employees]."

 

[lanejudy]

I just read that the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, which employs 89 thousand, will not require mandatory COVID vaccines. Here is some of their statement:

I'm listening to my state's press conference as I type this. Our Health Commissioner just clarified that with EUA (Emergency Use Approval) the FDA does not allow for vaccine requirement. He read something from the FDA advisory panel. EUA is still considered investigational. Requirement of vaccination in the U.S. will not occur until full approval is granted.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

I just read that the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, which employs 89 thousand, will not require mandatory COVID vaccines. Here is some of their statement:

From PennLive:

"The main reason is general uncertainty about the COVID-19 vaccine -- the first of several vaccines in the pipeline could receive emergency approval from the U.S. government this month, possibly within days. UPMC is preparing to begin offering COVID-19 vaccine to front-line health care workers as soon as this month.​

​

Dr. Graham Snyder, UPMC's medical director of infection prevention and hospital epidemiology, said UPMC's mandatory flu vaccination policy "is based on decades of experience with the influenza vaccine."​

​

But there's no comparable data for a COVID-19 vaccine, or on whether a mandate is the best way to get large numbers of people to become vaccinated, Snyder said on Tuesday."​

Here's what Dr. Graham Snyder, UPMC's medical director of infection prevention and hospital epidemiology, said about that:

Our hospital has a similar message. We have to get a flu shot but it has a long long track record. The Covid vaccine is new so it’s only right to allow people to choose.
I have a feeling it’s more like 8-9000 employees, not 89,000. We are a large group of 14 hospitals, the original one being a huge teaching hospital 1000+ beds and still are only 25,000 employees.

 

[jane01jp]

Our hospital has a similar message. We have to get a flu shot but it has a long long track record. The Covid vaccine is new so it’s only right to allow people to choose.
I have a feeling it’s more like 8-9000 employees, not 89,000. We are a large group of 14 hospitals, the original one being a huge teaching hospital 1000+ beds and still are only 25,000 employees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pittsburgh_Medical_Center
Apparently, this is the largest private employer in Pennsylvania. This is especially interesting, given that Pennsylvania is currently such a COVID hotspot, with deaths per capita over the week ended December 10 of 1.65X the national average.

 

[jane01jp]

I understand your frustration with a bleak situation - and I personally am frustrated too - probably more so. But, that's not going to change the reality around us. We are not seeing 3,000 people die of emotional and economic damage - or of a deterioration in quality of life. You can come out of a depression and recover from the emotional toil. Death unfortunately is permanent.

We speak of the balance between economic freedom and public health - between lockdowns and jobs. Well, in the US, there hasn't been a true lockdown at any time in this pandemic. We had (and now have again) a few states taking matters in their own hands, but nationally it's been a free-for-all. We have been - so to speak - throwing bandages at a disease We are also quick to demonize anyone wanting to take a harder stance.

And there is nothing to show for it. This is the third wave - the largest yet. Nearly 3,000 daily deaths are at hand. The GDP and job numbers are in the toilet. Careers, as you note, are getting decimated. Politicians are fighting. And there is little hope until a mass vaccination - by when expect a few more industries to disappear and a few hundred thousand more graves to appear. Why is the simple truth lost on so many? You cannot have an economic recovery until this virus is gone. You want jobs? Show this virus the door first.

Messaging of hope is great. It hasn't worked so far this year, but maybe third time is the charm! The right approach - the only approach short of a mass vaccination - is to lock down everything for a month and pay everyone a check to stay at home. Do it nationally - with aggressive testing and contact tracing. While there is no evidence of a whilly whally, half-hearted containment path to recovery, there is plenty of evidence why a decisive approach works. You avert a public health crisis BECAUSE OF WHICH your economy gets a jump start. Here are three examples.

The epicenter:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/18/business/china-economy-covid.html
Well, give me an eye roll - I know. How about South Korea?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/09/1...conomic-impact-recession-south-korea-success/
If you insist on 'G-7', check out Japan, which has less than 2,500 total COVID deaths to show to date.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54955484
To be clear, no one is out of the woods yet. The virus is still very much raging. What we do see is that if you are able to contain this virus, you begin to have your economic freedom back. These two problems are intertwined - you can't solve one without solving the other.

I would take reports out of China with a huge block of salt. I found this article today on CBS detailing how a reporter was arrested by the Chinese government for "picking quarrels and provoking trouble." It seems like that is a favored charge in that country.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-...urnalist-zhang-zhan-detained-may-not-survive/

 

[Intr3pid]

I would take reports out of China with a huge block of salt. I found this article today on CBS detailing how a reporter was arrested by the Chinese government for "picking quarrels and provoking trouble." It seems like that is a favored charge in that country.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-...urnalist-zhang-zhan-detained-may-not-survive/

You didn't have to post this if you took the cue from this line in my post following the China link:

Well, give me an eye roll - I know.

 

[jane01jp]

You didn't have to post this if you took the cue from this line in my post following the China link:

Sorry I missed that. I think it is worth noting that dissent has been criminalized in some parts of the world, and suppressed in others, such that getting to the truth may be a challenge.

 

[Intr3pid]

Sorry I missed that. I think it is worth noting that dissent has been criminalized in some parts of the world, and suppressed in others, such that getting to the truth may be a challenge.

That's true, but it happens everywhere in some shape and form:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/us/florida-coronavirus-data-rebekah-jones.html
The reality is, how they suppress dissent in China is also how they enforce compliance with their strict lockdowns. While I may haggle over the specifics, I do believe their overall low numbers.

 

[jane01jp]

That's true, but it happens everywhere in some shape and form:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/us/florida-coronavirus-data-rebekah-jones.html
The reality is, how they suppress dissent in China is also how they enforce compliance with their strict lockdowns. While I may haggle over the specifics, I do believe their overall low numbers.

That could be. There's no way to really know. I guess it's a matter of personal preference - freedom vs. totalitarianism. I prefer freedom.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pittsburgh_Medical_Center
Apparently, this is the largest private employer in Pennsylvania. This is especially interesting, given that Pennsylvania is currently such a COVID hotspot, with deaths per capita over the week ended December 10 of 1.65X the national average.

Wow that is huge.