The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[TestingH2O]

I'll just point out they are saying "fully vaccinated people can meet indoors with other fully vaccinated people" without masks. But they still recommend masks. I would think that means if you can't be sure that everyone you're going to be in contact with is, indeed, fully vaccinated everyone should be wearing masks.

"Fully vaccinated" means at least 2 weeks after second dose (or single Johnson & Johnson).

Thank you. Yes. Fully vaccinated people can be unmasked with SMALL GROUPS of other fully vaccinated people.

I really worry for service industry folks who are going to have people showing up grousing about not needing to mask because they are vaccinated.

This is the full text of the recommendations with the link to the actual document.

Fully vaccinated people can:

Visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
Visit with unvaccinated people from a single household who are at low risk for severe COVID-19 disease indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing
Refrain from quarantine and testing following a known exposure if asymptomatic
For now, fully vaccinated people should continue to:

Take precautions in public like wearing a well-fitted mask and physical distancing
Wear masks, practice physical distancing, and adhere to other prevention measures when visiting with unvaccinated people who are at increased risk for severe COVID-19 disease or who have an unvaccinated household member who is at increased risk for severe COVID-19 disease
Wear masks, maintain physical distance, and practice other prevention measures when visiting with unvaccinated people from multiple households
Avoid medium- and large-sized in-person gatherings
Get tested if experiencing COVID-19 symptoms
Follow guidance issued by individual employers
Follow CDC and health department travel requirements and recommendations

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html

 

[Intr3pid]

The B.1351 variant - the South African variant - continues to be a bit of the Achilles' heel for the mRNA vaccines, but the good news is that the other variants seem to be well within the capabilities of the vaccines. We have more results on the Pfizer data in a Pfizer-sponsored study published in the NEJM:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102017
The graph looks like this:

Essentially, the size of the bar (and the number printed on top) tells you the average levels of antibodies in the blood samples measured 2 to 4 weeks after the second doses. The circles (2 weeks after the dose) and triangles (4 weeks after the dose) are the sample results - there were just 20 in this study. The LOD line is the limit of detection. (The system can't detect antibodies below these levels.)

In the graph:
* B117-Spike = UK variant
* P1-Spike = Brazilian variant
* B1351-Spike = South African variant
* Other B1351s = Engineered combinations with other mutations

Since the South African variant isn't as well spread in the US yet, controlling the cases continues to be the key. The CDC might still keep a cautious tone on cruising until late summer or early fall.

 

[brentm77]

The B.1351 variant - the South African variant - continues to be a bit of the Achilles' heel for the mRNA vaccines, but the good news is that the other variants seem to be well within the capabilities of the vaccines. We have more results on the Pfizer data in a Pfizer-sponsored study published in the NEJM:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102017
The graph looks like this:

Essentially, the size of the bar (and the number printed on top) tells you the average levels of antibodies in the blood samples measured 2 to 4 weeks after the second doses. The circles (2 weeks after the dose) and triangles (4 weeks after the dose) are the sample results - there were just 20 in this study. The LOD line is the limit of detection. (The system can't detect antibodies below these levels.)

In the graph:
* B117-Spike = UK variant
* P1-Spike = Brazilian variant
* B1351-Spike = South African variant
* Other B1351s = Engineered combinations with other mutations

Since the South African variant isn't as well spread in the US yet, controlling the cases continues to be the key. The CDC might still keep a cautious tone on cruising until late summer or early fall.

From the same study (my emphasis):

"...neutralization of [South African variant] was robust but lower. . ."

and

"Neutralizing activity against the [South African variant] was robust at a geometric mean titer that was much higher than that obtained after one dose of [Pfizer vaccine], when strong efficacy was already observed in the C4591001 efficacy trial. T-cell immunity may also be involved in protection, and [Pfizer vaccine] immunization elicits CD8+ T-cell responses that recognize multiple variants. Ultimately, conclusions about vaccine-mediated protection that are extrapolated from neutralization or T-cell data must be validated by real-world evidence collected in regions where the SARS-CoV-2 variants are circulating."

Not looking to open another debate, so I will just let the language for the study speak for itself. Just want people to get a complete picture if they don't click through.

 

[Intr3pid]

From the same study (my emphasis):

"...neutralization of [South African variant] was robust but lower. . ."

and

"Neutralizing activity against the [South African variant] was robust at a geometric mean titer that was much higher than that obtained after one dose of [Pfizer vaccine], when strong efficacy was already observed in the C4591001 efficacy trial. T-cell immunity may also be involved in protection, and [Pfizer vaccine] immunization elicits CD8+ T-cell responses that recognize multiple variants. Ultimately, conclusions about vaccine-mediated protection that are extrapolated from neutralization or T-cell data must be validated by real-world evidence collected in regions where the SARS-CoV-2 variants are circulating."

Not looking to open another debate, so I will just let the language for the study speak for itself. I am personally glad to see it is producing a "robust" response, even if lower.

Added - this right here is a fascinating study on how much of the narrative the media controls. Exact same study, with three headlines that give a completely different impression, ranging from bad news, to neutral, to positive, in a single snapshot:

There is no definition of "robust" in the study. A 60% effective vaccine may still be 'robust' for all they care.

You have replaced the "B1351 lineage" in that paragraph with "[South African variant]", which is incorrect. The lineage is the last three combinations, of which only the first is the true South African variant. The other two are lab-created engineered versions, where the South African variant is mixed with mutations from the other variants. The study itself admits that the neutralization of "B.1.351-spike" virus was lower.

Instead of media articles or selective emphasis, let's look at the graph posted. The number of antibodies are about 6 times lower against B1351. One sample (out of 20) did not even detect any antibodies and four more at a low (~1/8th) level. That's 5 out of 20 - or 25% of the sample. There is hardly anything at that level against the other combinations.

All of this is in line with the AZ and J&J studies - showing a similar drop in efficacy against the South African variant.

I agree - there is no need for a debate here because I feel it will eventually turn into what's being written in the media. If I wanted to quote a media article for this study, you would see it already!

 

[brentm77]

There is no definition of "robust" in the study. A 60% effective vaccine may still be 'robust' for all they care.

You have replaced the "B1351 lineage" in that paragraph with "[South African variant]", which is incorrect. The lineage is the last three combinations, of which only the first is the true South African variant. The other two are lab-created engineered versions, where the South African variant is mixed with mutations from the other variants. The study itself admits that the neutralization of "B.1.351-spike" virus was lower.

Instead of media articles or selective emphasis, let's look at the graph posted. The number of antibodies are about 6 times lower against B1351. One sample (out of 20) did not even detect any antibodies and four more at a low (~1/8th) level. That's 5 out of 20 - or 25% of the sample. There is hardly anything at that level against the other combinations.

All of this is in line with the AZ and J&J studies - showing a similar drop in efficacy against the South African variant.

I agree - there is no need for a debate here because I feel it will eventually turn into what's being written in the media. If I wanted to quote a media article for this study, you would see it already!

Well, you still found something to argue about. Note that you applied the same label in your summary of the graph ("B1351-Spike = South African variant"). I was trying to indicate which virus it was referring to for those who don't have the classifications memorized, not attempting to get into the specifics of how the test was created in a lab. I did not intend to mislead.

Go ahead and have the last word. Like I said, I won't do the long back and forth this time. The study speaks for itself.

Obviously the response is lower and it is wise to work towards a booster in case it is needed.

 

[belle032]

Just sharing an update: got J&J vaccine at about 12:45AM Monday. Was fine until about 4PM Tuesday where it just kicked my butt. DH came home and said I looked pretty pale. I was under 3 blankets on the couch, could not keep my eyes open, headache, body aches, sore arm, on and off nausea, no appetite.

Made sure to drink a ton of water and regular Tylenol.

It got better as the night went on and I was able to get up this morning, workout, and get back to work. Still a little tired, not super hungry, and arm still sore, but I can't complain too much. I know it was worth it!

The entire process was handled and streamlined very well, there were just a lot of people. I had to laugh about it though - I waited in line for about 20 minutes outside before getting into the lobby. So once you got inside you're like "oh I'm almost there, no worries." And then you turn the corner and go into this huge room with stanchions and gates everywhere and back-and-forth queue lines. It was exactly like WDW when you think as soon as you enter the attraction building and you're about to ride but it's like SURPRISE! Another hour of waiting inside!

All I could think about was "wow I hope there's a gift shop at the end of this!"

 

[sabrecmc]

Just sharing an update: got J&J vaccine at about 12:45AM Monday. Was fine until about 4PM Tuesday where it just kicked my butt. DH came home and said I looked pretty pale. I was under 3 blankets on the couch, could not keep my eyes open, headache, body aches, sore arm, on and off nausea, no appetite.

Same thing for me! Oh my gosh, yes. I got the J&J vaccine Monday afternoon. Was tired Tuesday morning, but went to work, figuring I would hopefully feel better once I got some caffeine and got going. NOPE. I came home at lunch and collapsed until about 6. Headache, low fever, soreness, chills, and NO ENERGY. Felt like I had extreme jet lag. Then, like magic, my fever broke and thirty minutes later, I was totally fine. Weirdest recovery ever. Today, it's like nothing happened.

I'm very glad to have gotten the vaccine, and it certainly was not nearly as bad as having covid. Just be prepared that the day after, you might need to stay home and rest.

 

[mevelandry]

Just sharing an update: got J&J vaccine at about 12:45AM Monday. Was fine until about 4PM Tuesday where it just kicked my butt. DH came home and said I looked pretty pale. I was under 3 blankets on the couch, could not keep my eyes open, headache, body aches, sore arm, on and off nausea, no appetite.

Made sure to drink a ton of water and regular Tylenol.

It got better as the night went on and I was able to get up this morning, workout, and get back to work. Still a little tired, not super hungry, and arm still sore, but I can't complain too much. I know it was worth it!

The entire process was handled and streamlined very well, there were just a lot of people. I had to laugh about it though - I waited in line for about 20 minutes outside before getting into the lobby. So once you got inside you're like "oh I'm almost there, no worries." And then you turn the corner and go into this huge room with stanchions and gates everywhere and back-and-forth queue lines. It was exactly like WDW when you think as soon as you enter the attraction building and you're about to ride but it's like SURPRISE! Another hour of waiting inside!

All I could think about was "wow I hope there's a gift shop at the end of this!"

Ahhh. I wish I could get the J&J vaccine. 1 shot, done, goodbye.

I hope you feel better soon.

 

[cgolf]

Well good news for us as we will be ready for cruising. My wife is in process and I am patiently looking for an apt so it is a matter of time. I will take whatever I can get, not sure there is one that is the best at this point. Just thankful that we are able to get it at all

 

[nickcapp]

I Just wanted to add my experience: I received the J & J shot Monday. I obtained an appointment via CVS craziness here in NJ last Friday 3/5.

Arm is still sore. I had very little reaction. I was a little more tired than usual Tuesday evening. No fever. Maybe some chills. If anything I would classify as near-none to mild reaction.

Ready to Cruise!

 

[Canadian Girl]

There is a seniors home in Canada with a new outbreak even though most were already fully vaccinated. I personally plan to wait to see what 2022 brings. Hoping to have my vaccination by June.

 

[mevelandry]

There is a seniors home in Canada with a new outbreak even though most were already fully vaccinated. I personally plan to wait to see what 2022 brings. Hoping to have my vaccination by June.

If it’s like what happened in Quebec, after two weeks, we’ve learn that most of the seniors had no symptoms/very mild symptoms, none of them were hospitalized and none of them died. The vaccine didn’t prevent catching the virus but it did prevent hospitalization and death.

 

[cgolf]

If it’s like what happened in Quebec, after two weeks, we’ve learn that most of the seniors had no symptoms/very mild symptoms, none of them were hospitalized and none of them died. The vaccine didn’t prevent catching the virus but it did prevent hospitalization and death.

I am curious what you all think of your border mates where we apparently have enough vaccine to open it up to all in May? I do know in WI at least we are concerned about the next group being so large that they may have to prioritize who gets it first. So between April 1st and May 1st we must be getting a lot of vaccine coming in. Just glad daughter can get it so she can cruise this fall with us.

I was shocked at what you said about Canada and what I read on another forum about the difference in number of people vaccinated in our respective countries. I am happy I can get mine, but I do feel bad for you all.

 

[lanejudy]

we apparently have enough vaccine to open it up to all in May? ... So between April 1st and May 1st we must be getting a lot of vaccine coming in.

That’s very questionable. It will still take months after 5/1 to fully vaccinate everyone. There just won’t be any more prioritization after that point - a free-for-all to get an appointment.

 

[cgolf]

That’s very questionable. It will still take months after 5/1 to fully vaccinate everyone. There just won’t be any more prioritization after that point - a free-for-all to get an appointment.

I agree, I am so thankful to be getting my first dose today to avoid the free for all. It will be interesting to watch how it goes.

 

[mevelandry]

I am curious what you all think of your border mates where we apparently have enough vaccine to open it up to all in May? I do know in WI at least we are concerned about the next group being so large that they may have to prioritize who gets it first. So between April 1st and May 1st we must be getting a lot of vaccine coming in. Just glad daughter can get it so she can cruise this fall with us.

I was shocked at what you said about Canada and what I read on another forum about the difference in number of people vaccinated in our respective countries. I am happy I can get mine, but I do feel bad for you all.

I honestly don’t understand why we are so far behind. I heard the next weeks will be better and we are doing better and better getting shots in peoples arms but we started so late. Thankfully, drugstores will be allowed to vaccinate starting next week. This should help a bit.

Among our closest relatives (5 seniors) 2 have received their first shots (their second is booked for the end of June) 1 has an appointment and 1 other should be eligible next week if everything goes well.

Unfortunately, one of the five that was eligible for an appointment starting friday has tested positive that same day and will have to wait for another month.

That being said, once they all have received their first shots, we’ll sleep a little bit better at night. We are hopeful we can receive our first shot in June but if « full vaccination« is required to cruise, I’m afraid we’ll have to cancel our august cruise.

We’re gonna need much more vaccines, faster.

 

[bcwife76]

There is a seniors home in Canada with a new outbreak even though most were already fully vaccinated. I personally plan to wait to see what 2022 brings. Hoping to have my vaccination by June.

That LTC is here in BC and while the media loves the shock value, the "real" truth came out the next day. Which is, while close to 80% of residents were vaccinated, closer to only 65% of the staff were vaccinated. And, of those who were vaccinated, many had only received one dose. Just to put that story into a bit more perspective, it's not exactly chicken little the sky is falling.

 

[soniam]

I am curious what you all think of your border mates where we apparently have enough vaccine to open it up to all in May? I do know in WI at least we are concerned about the next group being so large that they may have to prioritize who gets it first. So between April 1st and May 1st we must be getting a lot of vaccine coming in. Just glad daughter can get it so she can cruise this fall with us.

That's on average for the US. Some states are either not handling distribution as well or not getting enough vaccine to begin with. I am in Texas, and I seriously doubt that I will get a vaccine before July. Not high risk, not essential worker/health care, <50. I actually am not even counting on July; I am really hoping by September. My husband was lucky to get his first this week, since his company has a small number of people in town and his group is in the same offices with people doing construction on a new factory. I am pretty jealous. Our son is a teen and won't be able to get one for a while. I was hoping he could get one before school starts in the Fall, but that seems highly unlikely. With Texas having so many people, that could affect numbers throughout the US, if they travel and get/spread it.

 

[cgolf]

I honestly don’t understand why we are so far behind. I heard the next weeks will be better and we are doing better and better getting shots in peoples arms but we started so late. Thankfully, drugstores will be allowed to vaccinate starting next week. This should help a bit.

Among our closest relatives (5 seniors) 2 have received their first shots (their second is booked for the end of June) 1 has an appointment and 1 other should be eligible next week if everything goes well.

Unfortunately, one of the five that was eligible for an appointment starting friday has tested positive that same day and will have to wait for another month.

That being said, once they all have received their first shots, we’ll sleep a little bit better at night. We are hopeful we can receive our first shot in June but if « full vaccination« is required to cruise, I’m afraid we’ll have to cancel our august cruise.

We’re gonna need much more vaccines, faster.

Hopefully they get it figured out for you all. I haven’t looked into how the vaccine is prioritized for the different countries. I did read the US is sitting on something like 30 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in case it gets approved. Hopefully the vaccine companies are being fair with it.

 

[bcwife76]

Hopefully they get it figured out for you all. I haven’t looked into how the vaccine is prioritized for the different countries. I did read the US is sitting on something like 30 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in case it gets approved. Hopefully the vaccine companies are being fair with it.

Astra Zeneca has already been approved for use in Canada and the first shipment arrived last week. Health Canada just approved the J&J vaccine about a week ago, too, but we have no delivery date. It's unfortunate that we are not manufacturing our own but that is a long and complicated story and one that is trying to be remedied by the end of this year.