The Rioting in France.

[NJBlackBerry]

Here's another one to upset the Franco-philes:

This just in:

"Agencies reported the French Government announced yesterday it had raised its terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide" after the recent attacks in the countryside. The only two higher levels in France are "Surrender" and "Collaborate". The raise was precipitated by a recent fire which destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively disabling their military."

 

[Laura]

And so did 300,000 to 400,000 thousand Americans. France has had leaders that are too ready to capitualate when the going gets tough. I wonder when they will announce their "exit strategy" in this conflict.
Clearly, France's socialistic society has yielded a 60% unemployment rate in these immigrant neighborhoods, and the very generous unemployment and welfare benefits provide no motivation for any of them to look for a job. The unemployment rate for the French exceeds 10%. While the USA may have its problems, our overall unemployment rate is 5%. The poor will stay poor if they aren't willing and able to go to work. They will get low end jobs if they aren't willing to stay in school, that is the reality of the situation and it also belongs on another thread.

If they're so happy getting welfare benefits from the government, why are they rioting?

Immigrants from Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and elsewhere arrived in France between 1956 and 1974 in search of a better economic future and to quench the thirst for cheap labour in the booming French economy. The parents and grandparents of today's unemployed rioters arrived at a time of full employment, allowing many of them to gain a modest toehold in the country. In the absence of a vibrant private housing sector, the state built millions of housing units, in large estates that sheltered 6,000 to 60,000 people. Today, a 10th of the population lives in public housing with all the charm of Moscow's Brezhnev-era monstrosities. In the city of Nancy, there is a 430-metre-long building that contains 7,000 residents.

Extreme problems called forth extreme solutions, and city planners' errors were literally cast in concrete. Most French housing estates are located far from the hustle and bustle of the central city. Jobs are as scarce as hope. As jobs evaporated during the 1980s, native-born white French citizens abandoned public housing to immigrants. Whereas Toronto has small pockets of self-segregated ethnic communities (which tend to disperse over a generation or two), Paris has entire suburbs, with hundreds of thousands of immigrants living in almost complete isolation from the mainstream, decade after decade.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051107.wcomment1108/BNStory/Front

Has the French government screwed up? Oh, definitely. But it's quite clear that you and others on this thread don't really want to debate the real problems that France is facing; it's just another excuse to bash France and welfare recipients in general. It's obviously just an outlet for your bizarre venom for left-wingers.

 

[Teejay32]

Real Sports... showed video clips of the aforementioned racial taunts and it was so out of control. If I remember correctly, fans in Spain were singled out for making "monkey sounds." Supposedly, the taunts are an insult to England for having to employ Black soccer players while the Spanish team is of pure European blood. Real Sports... showed pictures of a soccer player passionately doing the Nazi salute on the sidelines of the soccer field during a game to his fellow Nazi supports in the stands

I saw that. Blocks of Nazis in the stands. Not just in Spain. It is hard enough to understand the wild appeal of soccer in the first place; now there are disturbing political movements represented in the seats...

 

[Charade]

Has the French government screwed up? Oh, definitely. But it's quite clear that you and others on this thread don't really want to debate the real problems that France is facing; it's just another excuse to bash France and welfare recipients in general. It's obviously just an outlet for your bizarre venom for left-wingers.

We're just waiting for you "left wingers" to admit that the social engineering you've been pushing doesn't work.

 

[Laura]

We're just waiting for you "left wingers" to admit that the social engineering you've been pushing doesn't work.

Welfare recipients are soooo happy to be mooching off the government that they're rioting?



They're not rioting because the government is liberal. They're rioting because they are poor and don't have access to jobs. It has to do with France's problematic governmental approach to job creation, yes, but not liberalism.

 

[DawnCt1]

Welfare recipients are soooo happy to be mooching off the government that they're rioting?



They're not rioting because the government is liberal. They're rioting because they are poor and don't have access to jobs. It has to do with France's problematic governmental approach to job creation, yes, but not liberalism.

It has very much to do with liberalism because the "French" aren't rioting and more than 10% of them are unemployed. France's socialistic structure felt that as long as the "immigrants and the children of immigrants" were housed in government housing, were provided with a generous income and have their physical needs met, they didn't have to really associate with them, have them attend the same schools or provide police protection. The police do not enter those neighborhoods. Essentially, they created well funded, isolated neighborhoods. When an entire group of people are given unlimited benefits with absolutely no reason to work, (some have never worked, don't ever have to work and probably will never work) because the workers will care for them, what else do they have to do? There is no room for "Schandenfreude" here. This is a smoldering fire that could ignite Europe. It is beyond civil youth unrest but perhaps the beginning of a culture clash that imperils the "west".

 

[dcentity2000]

Wow, you really hate the French.

Sad, really



Rich::

 

[DawnCt1]

Wow, you really hate the French.

Sad, really



Rich::

Rich, NO ONE here hates the French. But there are realities that exist that have existed pre WWII that contributes to the state of affairs that exists now. There has to be some serious reshuffling of the way things are done in France, how they respond to insurgents (yup that's what they have now) and how they are going to stem the violence and intergrate those who feel so disenfranchised, into their society or expell them. The "jokes" exists because there is reality there.

 

[DawnCt1]

Wow! Did I just hear on Fox News that the French Government is considering calling a "Truce"! Isn't that the same as surrender?? How does a government, with the obligation to protect its citizens, call a truce with criminals?

No, I heard it on MSNBC!

 

[Laura]

It has very much to do with liberalism because the "French" aren't rioting and more than 10% of them are unemployed. France's socialistic structure felt that as long as the "immigrants and the children of immigrants" were housed in government housing, were provided with a generous income and have their physical needs met, they didn't have to really associate with them, have them attend the same schools or provide police protection. The police do not enter those neighborhoods. Essentially, they created well funded, isolated neighborhoods. When an entire group of people are given unlimited benefits with absolutely no reason to work, (some have never worked, don't ever have to work and probably will never work) because the workers will care for them, what else do they have to do? There is no room for "Schandenfreude" here. This is a smoldering fire that could ignite Europe. It is beyond civil youth unrest but perhaps the beginning of a culture clash that imperils the "west".

Well, as usual, you're ignoring my point, so I'll repeat: if these welfare recipients are so unhappy with living off the government, why should they riot against the government complaining of racism and lack of jobs? And I'll add that racism isn't a liberal quality.

I shudder to think what kind of situation would exist in these communities if they had no money coming in from anywhere. The French government has definitely screwed up, but they need to create jobs so that these minorities can find some. They get hired last, fired first, live in isolation. And this is liberal?

Also as usual, Dawn, you're the only one who's convinced.

 

[Planogirl]

Rich, NO ONE here hates the French. But there are realities that exist that have existed pre WWII that contributes to the state of affairs that exists now. There has to be some serious reshuffling of the way things are done in France, how they respond to insurgents (yup that's what they have now) and how they are going to stem the violence and intergrate those who feel so disenfranchised, into their society or expell them. The "jokes" exists because there is reality there.

You keep talking about integration but haven't you noticed how our own country has a huge Hispanic population who isn't interested in assimilating? Vast amounts of these people insist on their own language, culture and residential areas even without the government placing them anywhere as you claim the French have done.

I do see hatred for the French on this thread myself. From classless jokes to insistence that we all know best for the French government. It's really a shame.

 

[yeartolate]

Rich, NO ONE here hates the French.

Boy, if we could resurrect deleted threads and the old DB, I could cut and paste a fine response!

 

[Laura]

Wow! Did I just hear on Fox News that the French Government is considering calling a "Truce"! Isn't that the same as surrender?? How does a government, with the obligation to protect its citizens, call a truce with criminals?

No, I heard it on MSNBC!

Give your France-bashing a rest, Dawn. A truce is not a surrender. Look it up.

I can't really comment on what you heard on MSNBC, though. I don't see it on the internet. Off the top of my head, I can't imagine how a government could call a truce with unorganized rioters.

 

[Charade]

, so I'll repeat: if these welfare recipients are so unhappy with living off the government, why should they riot against the government complaining of racism and lack of jobs?

Because they want more??

You said it earlier, they don't have access to their country's wealth. Do they want to work for it or just more handouts?

And I'll add that racism isn't a liberal quality.

Racism has no eco-social boundaries.

I shudder to think what kind of situation would exist in these communities if they had no money coming in from anywhere. The French government has definitely screwed up, but they need to create jobs so that these minorities can find some. They get hired last, fired first, live in isolation. And this is liberal?

Our unemployment level is near record lows but still we here complaints (usually from the liberals) that it's not good. The quality and pay of those jobs are lousy. So if France somehow managed to create jobs that those people would actually want to show up at, it still probably wouldn't be good enough for some people.

Where do you think those jobs would come from? People with money willing and needing to pay people to work for them. When people are taxed out the wazoo, they have less money to pay workers. The government has more money for social programs but that hardly ever translates into a positive in the long run.

 

[DawnCt1]

Boy, if we could resurrect deleted threads and the old DB, I could cut and paste a fine response!

Criticism and dislike of Mitterand, Chirac and Villepan does not translate into dislike of the French. I think the oil for food, arms trading and support for Saddam was reprehensible. It still is. If they thought that it bought them peace, they are paying for that now. This situation is a tinderbox. These disaffected people are ripe for the picking from terrorists cells to radical Imams.

 

[KarenC]

I think there are lessons for both the left and the right in what's going on in France. As I mentioned upthread, we were in the country when the violence started. Our daughter is still there, so I've been paying close attention.

Unlike the US, where our mainstream culture encourages diversity, the French have insisted on maintaining their French identity. Right wing opponents of diversity initiatives in the US should take notice of what that's lead to in France.

Also in France there is a overly generous social safety net. Throwing money at people in need doesn't solve issues either. People want dignity, they want to be employable.

Not all of the rioters are Muslim. They all are poor. This isn't jihad--it's more like our race riots in the 60's or LA after the Rodney King incident. But Dawn is right, disaffected youth with nothing to lose are a security concern for all of us.

(And Dawn, the list of bad actors implicated by Volcker in the oil-for-food scandal includes plenty of US corporations that are pretty well-connected to the current administration.)

 

[Laura]

You said it earlier, they don't have access to their country's wealth. Do they want to work for it or just more handouts?

Tell me, why do immigrants come to this country? Why did the immigrants in France move there? To loaf around? I tend to think they're here (and there) to work and be successful.

France had a better economy in decades past, with more opportunities. Economic growth is very very slow right now, which is why these young children and grandchildren of the opportunistic immigrants are mad.

Racism has no eco-social boundaries.

No kidding?

Our unemployment level is near record lows but still we here complaints (usually from the liberals) that it's not good. The quality and pay of those jobs are lousy. So if France somehow managed to create jobs that those people would actually want to show up at, it still probably wouldn't be good enough for some people.

That's just your opinon. Any facts to back that up? By the way, who works those lousy jobs in this country? Answer: illegal immigrants.

Where do you think those jobs would come from? People with money willing and needing to pay people to work for them. When people are taxed out the wazoo, they have less money to pay workers. The government has more money for social programs but that hardly ever translates into a positive in the long run.

I agree that France needs to be more pro-business, pro-jobs. That is obviously where they're going wrong. I think the American economic model is pretty good, generally.

 

[Teejay32]

I always had a problem with that myself, in this country - the idea that people rioting, attacking, torching things are in reality saying "we need jobs." It doesn't matter how many years you've claimed French or American citizenship - that's an awful lot to demand of a community when you're busy destroying it.

 

[DawnCt1]

Unlike the US, where our mainstream culture encourages diversity, the French have insisted on maintaining their French identity. Right wing opponents of diversity initiatives in the US should take notice of what that's lead to in France.

Ring wing opponents of diversity? I think the answer to all of this is the melting pot, which is what we have in the USA, with respect to all of our differences encouraged. It's important that no matter what our ethnic heritage is, that we all feel like Americans. Quite different from the goals of "French identity".

[/QUOTE]

 

[Charade]

No kidding?

Really, it doesn't!!!

That's just your opinon. Any facts to back that up? By the way, who works those lousy jobs in this country? Answer: illegal immigrants.

The jobs taken by illegal immigrants usually don't show up in the UE reports. I'm referring to lower paying LEGAL jobs.

I agree that France needs to be more pro-business, pro-jobs. That is obviously where they're going wrong. I think the American economic model is pretty good, generally.

I agree!!! (ouch, that hurt!)