The Rioting in France.

[dcentity2000]

What do you call a $25,000 reward from Saddam to every suicide bomber's family?

I don't think those count as WMDs I'm afraid

[EDIT] Sorry, I'm being dense. Quiet, isn't it?



Rich::

 

[Laura]

What do you call a $25,000 reward from Saddam to every suicide bomber's family?

That's a good point, but that wasn't the basis for the US invading Iraq. The money you mention was specifically for Palestinian suicide bombers' families, not Al Qaeda (who, I might remind you, wasn't friendly to Saddam pre-invasion). Your post about "exporting terrorism" has a different spin on the facts.

 

[DawnCt1]

That's a good point, but that wasn't the basis for the US invading Iraq. The money you mention was specifically for Palestinian suicide bombers, not Al Qaeda (who, I might remind you, wasn't friendly to Saddam pre-invasion). Your post about "exporting terrorism" has a different spin on the facts.

Saddam and OBL had a philosophy that can clearly be summed up with "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and there was evidence that Al Qaeda members were in Bagdhad. Further more, are you insinuating that terrorists acts, supported by Saddam, against Israel "doesn' count"?

 

[Laura]

Saddam and OBL had a philosophy that can clearly be summed up with "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" and there was evidence that Al Qaeda members were in Bagdhad. Further more, are you insinuating that terrorists acts, supported by Saddam, against Israel "doesn' count"?

What I'm saying is that it wasn't "exporting terrorism" in such a way that it was a threat to the US in that we needed to invade the country. (Besides that, haven't we been trying to be friends with the Palestinians?) Al Qaeda members weren't in Baghdad until after the invasion.


Anyway, back to your OP, your statement about integration of the rioters into French society is probably correct. The French are certainly more insular than Americans and probably less tolerant of foreigners in general.

 

[DawnCt1]

Anyway, back to your OP, your statement about integration of the rioters into French society is probably correct. The French are certainly more insular than Americans and probably less tolerant of foreigners in general.

And yet they did nothing to control immigration and fostered it in fact by providing exceedingly generous welfare benefits.

 

[Teejay32]

I think we're only guessing when comparing what happens in Europe to what happens in the US. We have riots, but we don't have much of a cultural divide among the different levels of society. Rich, poor, middle class - all are American, there's no US equivalent of "the West" oppressing other cultures and no unifying social system like Islam. So I have no idea what's supposed to happen in an advanced democratic country like France when people are either "French" or "Muslim", but it does look like a recipe for civil unrest for a while.

 

[Viking]

I think we're only guessing when comparing what happens in Europe to what happens in the US. We have riots, but we don't have much of a cultural divide among the different levels of society. Rich, poor, middle class - all are American, there's no US equivalent of "the West" oppressing other cultures and no unifying social system like Islam. So I have no idea what's supposed to happen in an advanced democratic country like France when people are either "French" or "Muslim", but it does look like a recipe for civil unrest for a while.

So we dreamed the clash 'Black against White' and vice versa during and after Katrina? America didn't appear to very homgenuous then to the rest of the world

 

[Viking]

In hind sight, we probably should have but on the other hand, Rwanda wasn't exporting terrorism or developing WMD's.

Not to forget: Rwanda doesn't have any oil

 

[Olaf]

Here's good opinion piece on the issue.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html

 

[Teejay32]

So we dreamed the clash 'Black against White' and vice versa during and after Katrina? America didn't appear to very homgenuous then to the rest of the world

It played well in Europe, you mean? I never saw the black vs. white angle in it, only those who were desperate to make one. Haven't heard much lately.

You seem to be the only person left defending the USA's harebrained war in Iraq. Are you blind or do you lack the intellectual capabilities to grasp the truth?

nope, she's not, I would too. My intellectual capacity rejected No War for Oil years ago.

 

[mcnuss]

The issue here is poverty, plain and simple. I've just read of attacks on a recycling center, schools, McDonald's on top of all the burned-up cars. It's obviously not religiously motivated, at least not for all the rioters. The government isn't helping, particularly the Interior Minister with his comments.

Originally Posted by Laura
Anyway, back to your OP, your statement about integration of the rioters into French society is probably correct. The French are certainly more insular than Americans and probably less tolerant of foreigners in general.

Reply by DawnCT1
And yet they did nothing to control immigration and fostered it in fact by providing exceedingly generous welfare benefits.

Most of the immigrants in France hail from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco and other North African countries, some of which the French had colonized and who fought the French for independence. Many years ago, the N. Africans who came to France became totally assimilated into the French society. They tended to be the descendants of European settlers and they were more able to blend in. During WW1, and I think WW2, the N. Africans fought side by side with the French. During both wars, the N. African immigrants filled jobs left by the French men fighting the war. The Algerian war was fought in the late 50's & early 60's. Some of my family fought in that brutal war. The French did not want to release it as a department; they considered it part of France. The Algerians obviously begged to differ.

Since that war, there has been a steady stream of immigrants, both legal and illegal, from the former colonies. Most of them are Muslim. They tend to fill the menial jobs the native French do not want (sound familiar?). My family used N. African migrant labor to harvest our grape crops. I am ashamed to say that the racism I witnessed in my French relatives' household was prevalent.

While you can say that the French have been "over-generous" with their welfare benefits, you can also say that they paid this money to try to sweep a very big problem under the carpet. For a long time, they needed their labor to rebuild the country. Over the years, more and more of these immigrants have migrated to the cities, and they have been marginalized and disenfranchised in ways that exceed anything we see over here. For most of these immigrants, assimilation is not an option. The French are very "chauvinistic" in general. The French government just wants everyone to be the same -- to be French. Over the years, the solution was to basically warehouse the immigrant population. So long as they stayed quiet in their housing projects, the French did not see it as too high of a price to pay. Most of the population in these projects is unemployed or employed at menial jobs. In general, unemployment is a problem in France, especially among the young. There is resentment any time an immigrant "takes" a French job, yet the empoyers will say that the French don't want them. The economic issues there are very complex, and it does not help that they have (imho) not had a truly gifted leader in many, many years.

From the cultural and religious side of things, in 1989, issues that had been simmering finally came to the surface when the French education minister decreed that religous garb could no longer be worn to school and several Muslim girls were expelled. This sparked demonstrations, rioting, hunger strikes. There was a lot of disagreement on what secularism really means. Does it mean that we eradicate religious expression everywhere but in church, temple, mosque, home? Or does it mean that we tolerate expressions of religion in society in general? Finding the right balance, as we all know just from the DIS boards, is awfully elusive. Since then, the French immigrant population has seen itself as under attack. There have been many situations that do not make the press here. That this situation has occurred now should come as no surprise to the government. This has been a tinterbox waiting to go up in flames. Sadly, a small, but very potent group of people see no way out of the situation except to fight. It's horrible and wrong, but the desperation is real.

This is definitely a situation in which religion and culture are intertwined with economics. The French are very proud of their culture, for good or ill. They are a complex people and it's hard for us, with a whopping 230 years of history, to understand some of the historical undertones of their politics and society. I know there are a lot of you out there who just viscerally hate the French and look for any opportunity to castigate and mock them but given what's going on in our own country, we'd do well not to throw any rocks lest our glass house come crashing down.

 

[Viking]

Here's good opinion piece on the issue.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html

Interesting, but after all just an opinion.

The problem we have with the integration of immigrants over here is that we have a specific culture in each of our countries - be it France, Germany, Denmark, etc. And we usually expect them to adapt to this cultural background.
The USA has less problems in that respect as you don't have a very long history and neither an own culture. Your country has always been a melting pot, incorporating the immigrants' culture and thus adapting. Although that seems to be changing with the fastgrowing hispanic portion of your society. Many people I know in the States already complain about the growing hispanic influence.
Nevertheless I think the riots in France right now are similar to those we know from i.e. LA: Poor people who have no lobby, no real access to their country's wealth and thus accumualte a large potential for violence. Then often a spark is enough to ignite that explosive potential. Some cops bashing a black or hispanic, or like now in France some youths dying in an accident while being chased by the flics (French cops).
I guess the same could have happened in Berlin - Although I'm sure that our police would have handled that better - Hopefully

 

[Laura]

The problem we have with the integration of immigrants over here is that we have a specific culture in each of our countries - be it France, Germany, Denmark, etc. And we usually expect them to adapt to this cultural background.
The USA has less problems in that respect as you don't have a very long history and neither an own culture. Your country has always been a melting pot, incorporating the immigrants' culture and thus adapting. Although that seems to be changing with the fastgrowing hispanic portion of your society. Many people I know in the States already complain about the growing hispanic influence.
Nevertheless I think the riots in France right now are similar to those we know from i.e. LA: Poor people who have no lobby, no real access to their country's wealth and thus accumualte a large potential for violence. Then often a spark is enough to ignite that explosive potential. Some cops bashing a black or hispanic, or like now in France some youths dying in an accident while being chased by the flics (French cops).
I guess the same could have happened in Berlin - Although I'm sure that our police would have handled that better - Hopefully

I agree with much of what you've posted. The USA is a country of immigrants, and to frown on a "foreigner" is really not a particularly popular thing to do. We do have a degree of cultural insularity--your remark about Hispanic influence is an example--but by and large we don't expect the immigrant groups to do much more than learn English and arrive legally.

 

[nwdisgal]

Most of the immigrants in France hail from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco and other North African countries, some of which the French had colonized and who fought the French for independence. Many years ago, the N. Africans who came to France became totally assimilated into the French society. They tended to be the descendants of European settlers and they were more able to blend in. During WW1, and I think WW2, the N. Africans fought side by side with the French. During both wars, the N. African immigrants filled jobs left by the French men fighting the war. The Algerian war was fought in the late 50's & early 60's. Some of my family fought in that brutal war. The French did not want to release it as a department; they considered it part of France. The Algerians obviously begged to differ.

Since that war, there has been a steady stream of immigrants, both legal and illegal, from the former colonies. Most of them are Muslim. They tend to fill the menial jobs the native French do not want (sound familiar?). My family used N. African migrant labor to harvest our grape crops. I am ashamed to say that the racism I witnessed in my French relatives' household was prevalent.

While you can say that the French have been "over-generous" with their welfare benefits, you can also say that they paid this money to try to sweep a very big problem under the carpet. For a long time, they needed their labor to rebuild the country. Over the years, more and more of these immigrants have migrated to the cities, and they have been marginalized and disenfranchised in ways that exceed anything we see over here. For most of these immigrants, assimilation is not an option. The French are very "chauvinistic" in general. The French government just wants everyone to be the same -- to be French. Over the years, the solution was to basically warehouse the immigrant population. So long as they stayed quiet in their housing projects, the French did not see it as too high of a price to pay. Most of the population in these projects is unemployed or employed at menial jobs. In general, unemployment is a problem in France, especially among the young. There is resentment any time an immigrant "takes" a French job, yet the empoyers will say that the French don't want them. The economic issues there are very complex, and it does not help that they have (imho) not had a truly gifted leader in many, many years.

From the cultural and religious side of things, in 1989, issues that had been simmering finally came to the surface when the French education minister decreed that religous garb could no longer be worn to school and several Muslim girls were expelled. This sparked demonstrations, rioting, hunger strikes. There was a lot of disagreement on what secularism really means. Does it mean that we eradicate religious expression everywhere but in church, temple, mosque, home? Or does it mean that we tolerate expressions of religion in society in general? Finding the right balance, as we all know just from the DIS boards, is awfully elusive. Since then, the French immigrant population has seen itself as under attack. There have been many situations that do not make the press here. That this situation has occurred now should come as no surprise to the government. This has been a tinterbox waiting to go up in flames. Sadly, a small, but very potent group of people see no way out of the situation except to fight. It's horrible and wrong, but the desperation is real.

This is definitely a situation in which religion and culture are intertwined with economics. The French are very proud of their culture, for good or ill. They are a complex people and it's hard for us, with a whopping 230 years of history, to understand some of the historical undertones of their politics and society. I know there are a lot of you out there who just viscerally hate the French and look for any opportunity to castigate and mock them but given what's going on in our own country, we'd do well not to throw any rocks lest our glass house come crashing down.

This is an excellent summary of the problem. Also, remember that all of us in the United States don't hate France. I personally like the French. There are many aspects of their culture that I really enjoy, including their passion for food and wine. When I cook I remember that the father of classical technique (which many cultures incorporate as part of their daily cooking ritual) was French. My dad's side of the family is originally from there. I have family members in Italy and Germany, as well as some close friends residing in Paris. I have a very close friend here who is from France and still has most of her family there. She is very well read and has told me much of what you are saying now. I'm not an expert on international politics by any means, but I do try to listen to people who are living in Europe (or who have lived overseas) and experiencing what is happening there.

 

[mark&sue]

I going to be flamed for this. But if I had so many children I would be poor too. I see it as simple as that. I have one child and they can be expensive!!!

Here in UK we have a very generous benefits system and I am afraid the poor people we house have an amazing amount of children and if you are not working or have a low paid job you will remain poor. A whole community doing the same will also be poor. Thus making for a poor and deprived community. Perhaps this is extremely niave of me

We have thousands of people trying to get to the UK all the time to access our benefits system. These people will have children here and many will remain poor. Should they then riot so the ones that are working pay even more than they are already????

Shoot me down I am ready



Susan

 

[nwdisgal]

I going to be flamed for this. But if I had so many children I would be poor too. I see it as simple as that. I have one child and they can be expensive!!!

Here in UK we have a very generous benefits system and I am afraid the poor people we house have an amazing amount of children and if you are not working or have a low paid job you will remain poor. A whole community doing the same will also be poor. Thus making for a poor and deprived community. Perhaps this is extremely niave of me

We have thousands of people trying to get to the UK all the time to access our benefits system. These people will have children here and many will remain poor. Should they then riot so the ones that are working pay even more than they are already????

Shoot me down I am ready



Susan

Ok, I'm not going to flame you because the other side of my dad's family is British. I am guessing though that you have a good education, social structure and personal resources that helped you to make the responsible choices that you did in your life. Alot of these people are trapped in a socio-economic strata that takes a lot of personal initiative and resources to pull out of.

 

[DawnCt1]

So we dreamed the clash 'Black against White' and vice versa during and after Katrina? America didn't appear to very homgenuous then to the rest of the world

That scenario only played out in the minds of the race baiters who make a living and reap great financial benefit from perpetrating that fraud; Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakan come to mind. The vast majority of the funds that were funneled to those Gulf States came from all Americans, including white Americans. How Europe wants to "play" that is up to them but it didn't reflect the reality of the situation.

 

[DawnCt1]

Three French police women were severely beaten and had to be hospitalized. It took two hours for the police to respond to them because they are spread out so thin. Then I heard that the police wants the French Army to be called out. This amazed me because given that buildings and over 1000 vehicles have been burned, the violence is moving closer to Paris, The USA would have long ago called out the National Guard when it looked like this could not be contained. I was also surprised that the police rarely enter those neighborhoods but they exist separately and almost automously. Some in those neighborhoods are now asking to a separate status. Secondly, the police are calling for a curfew! That amazes me too. I would have thought that a curfew would have gone into effect days ago. Tomorrow, they will go on French national tv and make an announcement about what the plan is. What is wrong with today. Doesn't anyone work on Sunday. It seems like I am looking at a lot of "too little too late".

 

[punkin]

The vast majority of the funds that were funneled to those Gulf States came from all Americans, including white Americans. How Europe wants to "play" that is up to them but it didn't reflect the reality of the situation.

OMG, I actually agree with you about something political. I think the situation in France vis a vis the permanent North African underclass does not compare with the racial issues (which no doubt still exist) in this country.

 

[DawnCt1]

You seem to be the only person left defending the USA's harebrained war in Iraq. Are you blind or do you lack the intellectual capabilities to grasp the truth?

Have you noticed that you seem incapable of disagreeing with me without throwing rude and nasty insults in my direction, in an attempt to boost your arguement?. You single handedly are supporting my observation that many of the visitors to the USA from Germany are RUDE!