The Official LOST Season Five *No Spoilers* Thread

[Liann]

I'm starting to get the idea of what Daniel is trying to say *I think...*

Imagine there being a huge bag of stuff-huge. It's labeled "your life". Everything in that bag WILL happen but not everything in the bag will happen in a specific order. I'm picturing a board game with only BIRTH and DEATH squares marked. All of the other squares in between the two are blank. When you are born you start placing pieces on the board in succession after the birth square. The only thing that is sure is that when you die your bag WILL be empty but at anytime before you reach your death square it's possible to go back to a certain square somewhere before and throw the pieces after that square back in the bag where they can be shaken up and pulled out in a different order on your path to the death square. So Daniel saying whatever happened, happened is correct because IT WILL happen. When is the only variable.

Now I'm not sure if he means this as a rule OFF the island or not but in going with that this might be the "Island" rule of time I'm thinking when Ben turned the wheel some of the pieces that were already in place were thrown back in the bag and being shaken till Locke went down and turned the wheel again. Now the pieces that were placed back in the bag are ready to be played again, not particularly in the same order perhaps.

Does that make sense?

It goes against what Daniel said before about not changing the past BUT it would also explain why Dan repeats over and over "I'm not gonna tell her, I won't do it". Like he's trying to convince himself he can change the fact that he WILL tell Charlotte not to return to the island.

Like Desi and Charlie. Desi knew Charlie was gonna die, it was just up to Charlie HOW. Charlie chose going down to the hydra.

.....oops, rambling again.

 

[harleyquinn]

I'm starting to get the idea of what Daniel is trying to say *I think...*

Imagine there being a huge bag of stuff-huge. It's labeled "your life". Everything in that bag WILL happen but not everything in the bag will happen in a specific order. I'm picturing a board game with only BIRTH and DEATH squares marked. All of the other squares in between the two are blank. When you are born you start placing pieces on the board in succession after the birth square. The only thing that is sure is that when you die your bag WILL be empty but at anytime before you reach your death square it's possible to go back to a certain square somewhere before and throw the pieces after that square back in the bag where they can be shaken up and pulled out in a different order on your path to the death square. So Daniel saying whatever happened, happened is correct because IT WILL happen. When is the only variable.

Now I'm not sure if he means this as a rule OFF the island or not but in going with that this might be the "Island" rule of time I'm thinking when Ben turned the wheel some of the pieces that were already in place were thrown back in the bag and being shaken till Locke went down and turned the wheel again. Now the pieces that were placed back in the bag are ready to be played again, not particularly in the same order perhaps.

Does that make sense?

It goes against what Daniel said before about not changing the past BUT it would also explain why Dan repeats over and over "I'm not gonna tell her, I won't do it". Like he's trying to convince himself he can change the fact that he WILL tell Charlotte not to return to the island.

Like Desi and Charlie. Desi knew Charlie was gonna die, it was just up to Charlie HOW. Charlie chose going down to the hydra.

.....oops, rambling again.

Wow...that was deep!

I think that explanation is too complicated, but if it works for you, that's fine.

My explanation still covers your other two scenarios...Daniel is trying to tell himself he won't warn Charlotte, because he thinks if he doesn't, she might not come back and he would change the future...but he KNOWS that it already happened and that he will tell her--it's his own rule...it's just the trauma of watching her die. He knows he can't change the future.

As for Charlie--Des is exempt from the rules of time travel--he is special. It wasn't up to Charlie how he would die--it was up to Des to stop saving him...

The basic truth is that what ever happened, happened. You cannot change the past--it always happened that way.

 

[BabyPiglet]

Actually, yes, that makes perfect sense. In a warped Lost kinda way!



I'm here for ya!

Good, because I was starting to doubt myself!

Liann, I think I like your time travel analogy the best. I agree that whatever happened, will happen, when is the variable.

Anyone have any theories as to where Rose and Bernard are? On lostpedia they think they're Adam and Eve from the caves. (They went to the cave after the flaming arrows, and maybe they died there.) That makes some sense to me.

 

[Liann]

Wow...that was deep!

I think that explanation is too complicated, but if it works for you, that's fine.


Ya I'm a lil complicated lol. (aka confused)

My explanation still covers your other two scenarios...Daniel is trying to tell himself he won't warn Charlotte, because he thinks if he doesn't, she might not come back and he would change the future...but he KNOWS that it already happened and that he will tell her--it's his own rule...it's just the trauma of watching her die. He knows he can't change the future.

Ah he THINKS he knows the rules but we know he doesn't. He's proven you CAN change the future by getting that message to Desi thus getting Desi to find his Mother.

As for Charlie--Des is exempt from the rules of time travel--he is special. It wasn't up to Charlie how he would die--it was up to Des to stop saving him...

Charlie didn't have to go down, Desi was till Charlie knocked him out.

The basic truth is that what ever happened, happened. You cannot change the past--it always happened that way.

Can too!

LOL I left that post half written this afternoon (at another board shhh) and just finished it. I think we were typing at the same time. Daniel's analogies were easier but the variable thing is missing. I just can't see them sending us back in time if the same exact thing is just gonna happen all over again. We already know that story and it doesn't end well. I swear if the last epi ends up being the first epi we saw Imma hurt someone. I don't like the non fixable time loop theory. I wrote one of those oh so many years ago. I didn't like it then either.

 

[smartestnumber5]

Anyone have any theories as to where Rose and Bernard are? On lostpedia they think they're Adam and Eve from the caves. (They went to the cave after the flaming arrows, and maybe they died there.) That makes some sense to me.

I've been wondering where they are too. I've just been assuming we're supposed to think they're dead along with the other losties.

I mean, I assume they would have traveled back to 1974 too just in a different place on the island if they were alive. So surely the Sawyer group (or Dharma) would have found them in 3 years--especially with Jin looking on the lookout for Locke to return.

Unless maybe the Others have taken in Rose and Bernard and the rest?

 

[BabyPiglet]

I've been wondering where they are too. I've just been assuming we're supposed to think they're dead along with the other losties.

I mean, I assume they would have traveled back to 1974 too just in a different place on the island if they were alive. So surely the Sawyer group (or Dharma) would have found them in 3 years--especially with Jin looking on the lookout for Locke to return.

Unless maybe the Others have taken in Rose and Bernard and the rest?

I heard a theory that Rose and Bernard are spies for the Others.

I'm not sure, I'm hoping they're still alive even though their storyline isn't the most interesting. And I'm sure TPTB won't just leave that up in the air.

3 years should be plenty of time to find them, either dead or alive. Hopefully we'll find out soon.

And Vincent, cause ya know, he's Jacob and all.

 

[kgle]

As a previous poster stated, they have Olivia listed as Horace's wife on Lostpedia. Believe me, I question it myself. I don't recall them mentioning their relationship in the first episode they were introduced. But thought maybe it was brought up in another episode. Maybe the purge episode. I'm gonna have to go rewatch my dvds.

Actually, lostpedia has her relationship with Horace as questionable.

From the site:

Olivia's last name has not been revealed within the show, however, she was listed as Olivia Goodspeed on ABC's Lost website and it is unclear whether they are married or related by blood.


I FINALLY got caught up. I put off watching the end of the finale last season and had some time to catch up on everything last night and tonight and darn this show for pulling me back in! I am sad I have to wait another 2 weeks

 

[Kycha]

I've been wondering where they are too. I've just been assuming we're supposed to think they're dead along with the other losties.

I mean, I assume they would have traveled back to 1974 too just in a different place on the island if they were alive. So surely the Sawyer group (or Dharma) would have found them in 3 years--especially with Jin looking on the lookout for Locke to return.

Unless maybe the Others have taken in Rose and Bernard and the rest?

That's what I think. I can't imagine they are on the island for 3 years without coming into contact with one side or the other. My money is on the Hostiles.

Actually, lostpedia has her relationship with Horace as questionable.

From the site:

Olivia's last name has not been revealed within the show, however, she was listed as Olivia Goodspeed on ABC's Lost website and it is unclear whether they are married or related by blood.

That is what it says now. On Wednesday, it still had her listed as Horace's wife. The bit that you quoted from the website has been newly added(since Wednesday night).


So, I decided to compile a list of possible identities of Amy and Horace's baby. I am including any male that looks to have been in their mid to late 20's at the time of the Oceanic 815 plane crash in 2004. Here is what I have so far(it is a rough list...I'm still compiling names). I'm also including the year of their birth(according to Lostpedia) if it is known or presumed.


Jin(1974)
Hurley(1977)
Charlie(1979)
Boone(1982)
Paolo
Neil Frogurt
Nathan(from the Tailie section of the plane)
Karl
Keamy
Liam(Charlie's brother)
Randy(Hurley and Locke's boss)
Jason(Kate's boyfriend, attempted to rob a bank with Kate in New Mexico)
Eddie(undercover cop who Locke picked up as a hitchhiker and befriended)


From the names I've listed, the one that seems most likely to be the baby boy to me is Nathan. When he was with the Tailies, he acted very suspicious. He would disappear off into the jungle for long periods of time. Ana Lucia suspected he was an Other. And he was eventually killed by Goodwin.

Eddie also seems like a likely candidate. I always thought there may be more to his story.

 

[gometros]

No way, they can't change things. Whatever happens, happens. It a Lost rule of time travel.

I don't buy into that, but that's just me. We don't know if their appearance in 1974 did or didn't change events. Who's to say Amy wasn't supposed to be killed? What does/did Jin, Sawyer and Julliette's joining Darma do to change things? Someone early mentioned in a long post, why didn't Sawyer recognize Ben in 2004, if he saw him in 1974/77? We don't know the order of things. I've always subscribed to the idea that tie is linear, so the 1974/77 Sawyer is actually OLDER than the present day Sawyer, which would explain things like lack of recognition. But, I do believe if we were ever able to go back in time, we would be able to influence evetns. That's just a contradiction that I've got to resolve with myself.

 

[gometros]

That's the big issue with time travel. Depends on which version you believe in. If you can't change the street just move backwards and forwards, then somethings have to have happened.

For example, Jin being on the freighter when it blew up. The freighter blew up because Ben killed Keamy, which resulted in Jin in the water and ending up in the past with Danielle's team. He stops Danielle from going into the temple when her male team members go after the guy that smoke monster took down the hole. By doing that, Jin saved Danielle, which leads to her having her baby, which leads to the Others stealing the baby and Ben raising her as his daughter. Then Keamy kills her, and Ben kills Keamy resulting in Jin in the water.

If Jin hadn't saved Danielle, there would have been no Alex for Ben to have, Keamy couldn't have killed her, the freighter wouldn't have blown up and Jin wouldn't have ended with Danielle's team. But Jin did end up with Danielle's team, so he had to have saved her.

Its a circle that could drive you insane.

Every time a bell rings, an angel gets his wings

 

[debraW76]

I don't buy into that, but that's just me. We don't know if their appearance in 1974 did or didn't change events. Who's to say Amy wasn't supposed to be killed? What does/did Jin, Sawyer and Julliette's joining Darma do to change things? Someone early mentioned in a long post, why didn't Sawyer recognize Ben in 2004, if he saw him in 1974/77? We don't know the order of things. I've always subscribed to the idea that tie is linear, so the 1974/77 Sawyer is actually OLDER than the present day Sawyer, which would explain things like lack of recognition. But, I do believe if we were ever able to go back in time, we would be able to influence evetns. That's just a contradiction that I've got to resolve with myself.

But didn't Richard meet Sawyer in 1954? So in 1974 Richard should have recognized Sawyer? Not to say that I remember every person that I met 20 years ago.

Concerning time travel issues - 1974/7 has already happened. But the losties haven't experienced it until now. Meaning 1974 has already happened to Richard, Horace, Amy, Paul, etc. But 1974/7 is happening for the first time for the Losties.

About not being able to change the past - how do you explain Dan going to Desmond during one of the flashes and telling him to 'find my mother'. THen Desmond woke up and had the memory that he didn't have before? I think that Daniel going to Desmond did in fact change Desmond's future becuase it caused him to have the memory that he didn't have before.

 

[debraW76]

So, I decided to compile a list of possible identities of Amy and Horace's baby. I am including any male that looks to have been in their mid to late 20's at the time of the Oceanic 815 plane crash in 2004. Here is what I have so far(it is a rough list...I'm still compiling names). I'm also including the year of their birth(according to Lostpedia) if it is known or presumed.

Jin(1974) - wrong nationality
Hurley(1977)
Charlie(1979)
Boone(1982)
Paolo - PLEASE DO NOT BRING PAULO BACK!!
Neil Frogurt
Nathan(from the Tailie section of the plane)
Karl - too young
Keamy ***My pick***
Liam(Charlie's brother)
Randy(Hurley and Locke's boss)
Jason(Kate's boyfriend, attempted to rob a bank with Kate in New Mexico)
Eddie(undercover cop who Locke picked up as a hitchhiker and befriended)

Wow! You pulled every character since the beginning!! Much more indepth than the list I compiled yesterday.

 

[Amy]

But didn't Richard meet Sawyer in 1954? So in 1974 Richard should have recognized Sawyer? Not to say that I remember every person that I met 20 years ago.

I don't think Richard met Sawyer in 1954 - didn't Sawyer and Juliet go off somewhere while Locke went down to the camp to talk to Richard? Sawyer only saw Richard from a distance. But Sawyer does know Richard's name and the fact that he's pretty important.

 

[harleyquinn]

LOL I left that post half written this afternoon (at another board shhh) and just finished it. I think we were typing at the same time. Daniel's analogies were easier but the variable thing is missing. I just can't see them sending us back in time if the same exact thing is just gonna happen all over again. We already know that story and it doesn't end well. I swear if the last epi ends up being the first epi we saw Imma hurt someone. I don't like the non fixable time loop theory. I wrote one of those oh so many years ago. I didn't like it then either.

I'll say it again. Daniel said it himself. Desmond is special, he can change the future, no one else can. He is the ONLY character that has actually changed anything. Everything else already happened.

The story isn't about how it will end (meaning the purge), it's about how we get to that point. I don't think the last episode will be the first one, I think we'll move beyond that somehow. But the story right now is explaining the island's past--Dharma's past, Ben's past. it happens to be the Losties present, but it's the writers way of explaining the past without flashbacks so that we can move on to the future understanding the past.

We know there's a purge--but that is all we know. We don't know why, we don't understand the relationship with Dharma and the Hostiles, we don't know Ben's motivation. We're in the past to learn all of that.

When this is all over--you guys owe me a cookie if I'm right.

And remember my theory (and Daniel's since it's the same) leaves room for varibility because of Desmond--it's the writer's tool to fix any inconsistances.

 

[harleyquinn]

I don't buy into that, but that's just me. We don't know if their appearance in 1974 did or didn't change events. Who's to say Amy wasn't supposed to be killed? What does/did Jin, Sawyer and Julliette's joining Darma do to change things? Someone early mentioned in a long post, why didn't Sawyer recognize Ben in 2004, if he saw him in 1974/77? We don't know the order of things. I've always subscribed to the idea that tie is linear, so the 1974/77 Sawyer is actually OLDER than the present day Sawyer, which would explain things like lack of recognition. But, I do believe if we were ever able to go back in time, we would be able to influence evetns. That's just a contradiction that I've got to resolve with myself.

That's fine you don't have to. I'm just explaining Daniel's view on time travel, which I think is also the writer's way of trying to explain it. We don't have to agree...

They can go back in time and influence events. But they have always done so. I'm not saying they don't influence the future by interacting with the past. I'm just saying they don't change the future, because they have ALWAYS gone back and influenced the past.

I can wait 2 years for my cookie.

 

[Heidict]

Keamy ***My pick***

Oh God, I hope so!!

 

[Heidict]

I can wait 2 years for my cookie.

I have a chocolate chip cookie set aside for you and waiting, but I think it's gonna get really hard and moldy by then.

 

[harleyquinn]

About not being able to change the past - how do you explain Dan going to Desmond during one of the flashes and telling him to 'find my mother'. THen Desmond woke up and had the memory that he didn't have before? I think that Daniel going to Desmond did in fact change Desmond's future becuase it caused him to have the memory that he didn't have before.

Convenient timing for the writers? Honestly, I don't think he remembered until he needed to. I don't think it has anything to do with him not remembering until it happened in the past, but if it is that, it still doesn't go against Daniel's explanation of time travel. It just means that either
1. his future was changed due to the visit because as Daniel has said, Des is exempt from the rules of time. or
2. his future didn't really change--it always happens that way, because Daniel always told him to find his mom.

See how its a nice, neat package that can explain everything?

And I will now state that for at least the next 2 weeks, I will not argue about the Lost theory of time travel.

 

[harleyquinn]

I have a chocolate chip cookie set aside for you and waiting, but I think it's gonna get really hard and moldy by then.

BTW I think Keamy is way too hot for us not to get more info about him!

 

[1LuckyMom]

I have a headache thinking about all this time stuff. Everytime I think I get it, I get Lost again !

One question for those who have a better handle on it: Do you think that the time will eventually get back in sync, so everyone will all be at the same time?
How else would we get Ben and Locke back with everyone else?

Also I just had this thought, if Locke had to go thru the special door to fix the time (caused by Ben going), then who would have done that after Widmore went?