The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[MerryPoppins]

Wait, crcormier is a man??? I thought he was a woman since the beginning.

Oh dear. I've blown his cover.

 

[JARNJ3]

Hope they said good bye before they hung up

Nope. Must have been in a hurry to get to the next call......

 

["Got Disney"]

My friends, (ooops, bad start. Never mind )
Whether you like Hillary or not, take a look at this video with John Stewart music. I know a few of you know who he was. This is a great piece, and a fantastic add, whether you like her or not. Please enjoy. (this should be John Stewart, Hillary link. Hope it works)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN7QMLRRMp4

that was good...that is what she should be having shown on her TV adds...that speaks louder that her words alone. And shows that she is caring and out thre helping.


I have never been polled either.

 

[shortbun]

My friends, (ooops, bad start. Never mind )
Whether you like Hillary or not, take a look at this video with John Stewart music. I know a few of you know who he was. This is a great piece, and a fantastic add, whether you like her or not. Please enjoy. (this should be John Stewart, Hillary link. Hope it works)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN7QMLRRMp4

Great video! Wonderful music. I've gone to see the Kingston Trio a couple of times. My Dad loved their less political music so I grew up on them. Too bad Hillary isn't using parts of it campaigning. I'm in Ohio and with so many snow days, we've been watching TV, lol. Haven't seen it.

 

[Laura]

My friends, (ooops, bad start. Never mind )
Whether you like Hillary or not, take a look at this video with John Stewart music. I know a few of you know who he was. This is a great piece, and a fantastic add, whether you like her or not. Please enjoy. (this should be John Stewart, Hillary link. Hope it works)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lN7QMLRRMp4

That is great--a very uplifting song, too. It's a shame we can't vote for both Hillary and Obama. They'd both be great Presidents.

 

[DISUNC]

The most recent Obama-Clinton debate drew little blood, but we noted a few factual claims that could use correcting or clarifying:

Clinton wrongly implied that Obama had little or no accomplishments to his credit. Obama recited a list of achievements at both the state and federal level, which we found to be accurate.

Obama used an outdated and probably inflated figure to support his argument that Clinton's "mandated" health care plan would exempt a large number who currently lack insurance.

Obama falsely claimed, again, that Bill Clinton's labor secretary said his health care plan reduced costs more than his opponent's.

Obama said Clinton had described his own plan as "universal" when he was down in the polls, before he became a threat. He’s right; she did.

Obama said "we have seen hate crimes skyrocket" because of the immigration debate. Actually, FBI figures show a 10.3 percent increase in anti-Hispanic incidents, and the most recent number is lower than it was in 2001.

Clinton said children of illegal immigrants, and even babies, have been left "with no one to take care of them" after workplace raids by immigration officials. But officials say news accounts have been overblown, and an independent report says persons apprehended in raids sometimes failed to tell officials about their children even when questioned.

 

[JARNJ3]

The "real" negative attacks from the other side......... over something intangible ..... it will permeate, it will gradually seep in to the fence sitters consciousness...... It was already on Bill Maher last night.......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080223/ap_on_el_pr/obama_attack_fodder_2

Obama may face grilling on patriotism

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer 23 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Sen. Barack Obama's refusal to wear an American flag lapel pin along with a photo of him not putting his hand over his heart during the National Anthem led conservatives on Internet and in the media to question his patriotism.

Now Obama's wife, Michelle, has drawn their ire, too, for saying recently that she's really proud of her country for the first time in her adult life.

Conservative consultants say that combined, the cases could be an issue for Obama in the general election if he wins the nomination, especially as he runs against Vietnam war hero Sen. John McCain.

"The reason it hasn't been an issue so far is that we're still in the microcosm of the Democratic primary," said Republican consultant Roger Stone. "Many Americans will find the three things offensive. Barack Obama is out of the McGovern wing of the party, and he is part of the blame America first crowd."

Opponents of Sen. John Kerry proved in the 2004 election that voters are sensitive to suggestions that a candidate is not sufficiently patriotic. The Democratic presidential nominee's campaign was torpedoed by critics of his Vietnam War record called the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, even though he won multiple military honors and was lauded by his superiors.

The Swift Boat campaign started as a relatively small television ad buy that exploded into an issue that dogged Kerry for months. The Massachusetts senator has conceded since losing to President Bush that the campaign and his lackluster response to unsubstantiated allegations he considered unworthy of a reaction likely cost him the election. And the term even became part of the campaign lexicon — swift boating.

Obama already is the subject of a shadowy smear campaign based on the Internet that falsely suggests he's a Muslim intent on destroying the United States. Obama is a Christian and has been fighting the e-mail hoax, which also claims he doesn't put his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance, and he's been trying to correct the misinformation.

"Whenever I'm in the United States Senate, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America," Obama frequently tells voters.

"I've been going to the same church for 20 years, praising Jesus," he adds.

Retired Major General Scott Gration, an Obama military adviser, said he expects the attacks will only increase if Obama wins the Democratic nomination.

"People are projecting things and taking things out of context," Gration said. "There's absolutely no question in my mind that Michelle and Barack are extremely patriotic, appreciate our freedoms and our values and everything else that the flag represents."

Officials with the McCain campaign and the Republican Party say they won't be suggesting Obama is less than patriotic, and instead plan to focus their criticisms on his record and inexperience if he wins the nomination. Well-funded outside groups, however, consider anything fair game.

Conservative Republican consultant Keith Appell, who worked with the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, said Obama's opposition to the war will create a "striking contrast between McCain the war hero and Obama the poster child for the anti-war movement."

"If you are McCain, you want to play up the decorated war hero, loves his country, served his country," Appell said. "You want to play those themes up as much as possible, especially in comparison to Obama and his role in the anti-war movement."

On Monday, Michelle Obama told an audience in Milwaukee, "For the first time in my adult life, I am really proud of my country. Not just because Barack is doing well, but I think people are hungry for change."

Cindy McCain, McCain's wife, days later responded by saying, "I have, and always will be, proud of my country." Barack Obama has expressed frustration that his wife's remarks had been taken out of context and turned into political fodder — both the Obamas say she was talking about politics in the United States, not the country itself.

Last summer, Obama was photographed by Time magazine at an event in Iowa standing with his hands folded during the national anthem. His primary rivals Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson appear beside him, with their hands on their hearts.

It has been repeatedly reported that the moment came during the Pledge of Allegiance, but that's not the case.

In October, Obama told Iowa television station KCRG that he decided to stop wearing a U.S. flag lapel pin during the run-up to the Iraq war because it had become "a substitute for, I think, true patriotism."

"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest. Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great and, hopefully, that will be a testimony to my patriotism," Obama said.

Obama's comments led conservatives and media commentators to question his patriotism.

"First he kicked his American flag pin to the curb. Now Barack Obama has a new round of patriotism problems. Wait until you hear what the White House hopeful didn't do during the singing of the national anthem," said Steve Doocy, co-host of "Fox and Friends" on the Fox News Channel.

"He felt it OK to come out of the closet as the domestic insurgent he is," former radio host Mark Williams said on Fox.

Gration said he had a copy of the national anthem photo e-mailed to him by a friend who didn't know the facts and questioned how a military man could support someone who doesn't honor the Pledge of Allegiance.

"I go to baseball games and football games and there's just a minority of us who put our hands over our heart. It's not an indication of patriotism," Gration said. Gration said he personally wears a flag pin, but "if I meet someone who doesn't have a lapel pin, it doesn't mean they are more or less patriotic than I am."

And, he added, "I don't think you can find Barack again not putting his hand over his heart at the national anthem."

 

[Fitswimmer]

The "real" negative attacks from the other side......... over something intangible ..... it will permeate, it will gradually seep in to the fence sitters consciousness...... It was already on Bill Maher last night.......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080223/ap_on_el_pr/obama_attack_fodder_2

 

[Laura]

That's just pathetic.

 

[chris1gill]

That's just pathetic.

If you think that's pathetic, you should hear what's being said today... going negative once didn't work, why would it work now?

"enough with the big speeches, the big rallies" etc & so forth, although DH & I were amused by it all today...

 

[Fitswimmer]

If you think that's pathetic, you should hear what's being said today... going negative once didn't work, why would it work now?

"enough with the big speeches, the big rallies" etc & so forth, although DH & I were amused by it all today...

It makes me sad that she's resorting to that negative stuff because she has so much to offer other than that. I also think it makes her campaign look bad..going negative failed her in SC and Wisconsin and going to it again makes it look like they can't adjust on the fly.

 

[chris1gill]

It makes me sad that she's resorting to that negative stuff because she has so much to offer other than that. I also think it makes her campaign look bad..going negative failed her in SC and Wisconsin and going to it again makes it look like they can't adjust on the fly.

I agree I just don't know what to say about it to be honest. Those ad's were run in New Hampshire, and have been run right along, and then today? I don't get it.... Today? I suppose we will see how it all plays out.

 

[JARNJ3]

If you think that's pathetic, you should hear what's being said today... going negative once didn't work, why would it work now?

"enough with the big speeches, the big rallies" etc & so forth, although DH & I were amused by it all today...

Did you hear why? The Obama camp sent out negative, inaccurate fliers about her in OH. Is she just supposed to shut up and take it because the "almightly Obama can do no wrong"?

I give up.

 

[Laura]

Did you hear why? The Obama camp sent out negative, inaccurate fliers about her in OH. Is she just supposed to shut up and take it because the "almightly Obama can do no wrong"?

I give up.

I got the mailers a while ago, but I didn't look at them. What was inaccurate?

 

[chris1gill]

I got the mailers a while ago, but I didn't look at them. What was inaccurate?

These flyers have gone out in several states for more than a few months. There was nothing inaccurate about the healthcare flyer, and he merely showcased her support for NAFTA, she's changed her mind about NAFTA since she was for it, or she has sort of changed her mind, she says it needs to possibly be re-examined...This is more of the same that went on in NH....

 

[JARNJ3]

I got the mailers a while ago, but I didn't look at them. What was inaccurate?

She was particularly incensed by a misquote from a newspaper, as well as her health care plan - its all here:

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/23/693956.aspx

Obama's going to have a lot of healing to do with the Hillary crowd to get their votes.......

 

[Laura]

I think there's a lot of healing to be done by both sides. I guess I don't see how Hillary could suddenly be incensed by the mailers. I remembered that one of them was about NAFTA, but not the health care one.

 

[MerryPoppins]

Wait a minute...

Obama sends out mailings that aren't true, but if Hillary complains she's going negative? I just don't see that. She's just supposed to roll over and play dead no matter what?

What she's unhappy about is on her website, but I'm having trouble connecting right now to the msnbc link and to her website. I guess I'll go reboot. If anyone wants me to, I'll look for the page and link it here.

 

[Laura]

Wait a minute...

Obama sends out mailings that aren't true, but if Hillary complains she's going negative? I just don't see that.

I haven't gotten a good sense from the msnbc.com link why the mailers were untrue. They use word "boon" and she says Newsday misquoted her. Newsday is backing her up. For the rest, there isn't much to go on.

 

[MerryPoppins]

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=6157

and

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=6156