The Bates Family (18 kids)

[Conservative Hippie]

The only other thing I had an issue with was when they made a statement that it was God that decided if they should have more children; they wouldn't interfere with what God had planned for them. However, they didn't have any problems giving the wife hormones to build up her chances of having a viable pregnancy because her uterine lining was too thin because of all the births. In my opinion, this was God telling them that they were done having babies. I understand the reasoning that they wouldn't take a pill to end a pregnancy because that is killing a life in their eyes. I don't understand how they don't see that by taking drugs to build up her uterine lining, she is screwing with mother nature and God's plan. Many people do the same thing but most don't preach about God's plan and contradict that plan by taking hormones.

I had not heard that, is that Kelly Bates or Michelle Duggar? I agree with you - I thought they believed in not interfering with their reproduction, but taking hormones is interfering. Might as well do IVF like Octomom.

 

[LisaR]

I had not heard that, is that Kelly Bates or Michelle Duggar? I agree with you - I thought they believed in not interfering with their reproduction, but taking hormones is interfering. Might as well do IVF like Octomom.

Kelly Bates.

 

[Hannathy]

Don't care for the lifestyle and don't care for either family. Tehre are so amny things wrong with what they are donig I cannot even begin, but, I have aproblem with the whjole tv thing mostly because they are capitalizing off of thier kids via a tv show when they disavow the "corrupting influence" of the media. Seems more than a little hypocritical to me. They claim to be evangelical Christians, but it is ok to make money off something they believe to be a crrupting influence.

I agree 100%

A little do as we say not as we do?

Of course the children are behaved, brainwashed people tend to do as they are conditioned-hence the brainwashing!

 

[disykat]

They claim to be evangelical Christians, but it is ok to make money off something they believe to be a crrupting influence.

I don't get this comment. I disapprove of some stuff on tv and always tried to limit what and how much my kids watched. That doesn't mean I think ALL tv is bad. I've never heard the Duggars say all TV is BAD, just that they want to preapprove content and spend most of their time on other things. I've seen tv's in their home and know they watch movies and things with preapproved content.

To me, this is being PROACTIVE by putting stuff on tv that fits with their values.

 

[woodkins]

I know! I have 4 and I wonder how they have a house that doesn't look like a bomb went off in it filled with toys.. like my living room looks like right now.. legos are everywhere, its also dark and those sucker hurt when you walk on them!

Read up on the quiverfull philosophy on raising and disciplining children and you will understand why their houses look the way they do. I personally would rather live in chaos rather than follow their teachings, but to each his own.

 

[kwelch10377]

Don't care for the lifestyle and don't care for either family. Tehre are so amny things wrong with what they are donig I cannot even begin, but, I have aproblem with the whjole tv thing mostly because they are capitalizing off of thier kids via a tv show when they disavow the "corrupting influence" of the media. Seems more than a little hypocritical to me. They claim to be evangelical Christians, but it is ok to make money off something they believe to be a crrupting influence.

This is from the Bates Family website:

"Well, we don’t have a TV for several reasons. First and foremost, we love it so much that we could be easily distracted from better priorities and relationships. TV in itself is not bad… It’s what’s played on it that makes it good or bad. There may be some good things on it, but mingled in with the good is a whole lot of bad. We don’t want to drop our guard and allow cursing, bad attitudes, immorality, and wrong friends in our home. Since we find that we don’t have a lot of self-control, the best protection for us is prevention. For the sake of those who do watch TV, we prefer for them to have wholesome selections available, so we encourage shows like the Duggars that may offer hope to some struggling family who might otherwise turn to shows that are anti-Christian or anti-family.

In our home we often watch selected videos and DVDs that are wholesome and character building. But we’ve found that even that has to be limited or pretty soon we can tell it in our behavior. We all get a lazy, couch potato spirit because we’d each prefer to sit and be entertained over doing chores and assignments. Our communication also weakens and arguments erupt more frequently. Those are signs that tell us to put up the box and pull out something more meaningful. That’s when a good family game of UNO or Rook, a good book, or quality talk time needs to take precedence. It also shows the difference in choices we can make in life . . . good, better, or best. The best choices will draw us closer to each other and closer to Christ."

They don't believe that TV as a whole is a corrupting influence.

 

[princessmom29]

This is from the Bates Family website:

"Well, we don’t have a TV for several reasons. First and foremost, we love it so much that we could be easily distracted from better priorities and relationships. TV in itself is not bad… It’s what’s played on it that makes it good or bad. There may be some good things on it, but mingled in with the good is a whole lot of bad. We don’t want to drop our guard and allow cursing, bad attitudes, immorality, and wrong friends in our home. Since we find that we don’t have a lot of self-control, the best protection for us is prevention. For the sake of those who do watch TV, we prefer for them to have wholesome selections available, so we encourage shows like the Duggars that may offer hope to some struggling family who might otherwise turn to shows that are anti-Christian or anti-family.

In our home we often watch selected videos and DVDs that are wholesome and character building. But we’ve found that even that has to be limited or pretty soon we can tell it in our behavior. We all get a lazy, couch potato spirit because we’d each prefer to sit and be entertained over doing chores and assignments. Our communication also weakens and arguments erupt more frequently. Those are signs that tell us to put up the box and pull out something more meaningful. That’s when a good family game of UNO or Rook, a good book, or quality talk time needs to take precedence. It also shows the difference in choices we can make in life . . . good, better, or best. The best choices will draw us closer to each other and closer to Christ."

They don't believe that TV as a whole is a corrupting influence.

From, that I getthat they pretty much do, but need a justification for taking omney for being on tv. If they weren't ON tv, this statement would never have been made.

 

[princessmom29]

I agree 100%

A little do as we say not as we do?

Of course the children are behaved, brainwashed people tend to do as they are conditioned-hence the brainwashing!

EXACTLY! Thery are "good kids" not because they want to be, but because they are too brianwashed to do any differently.

I don't get this comment. I disapprove of some stuff on tv and always tried to limit what and how much my kids watched. That doesn't mean I think ALL tv is bad. I've never heard the Duggars say all TV is BAD, just that they want to preapprove content and spend most of their time on other things. I've seen tv's in their home and know they watch movies and things with preapproved content.

To me, this is being PROACTIVE by putting stuff on tv that fits with their values.

But you don't work for the network you are refusing to let your kids watch.
No, in the earliest specials, before they were famous, they said they believed TV was corrupt and there were none in the home. They have changed their minds since they found out it was a cash cow for them. I am willing to bet thier kids watch little to nothing on TLC, and most of it is objectionable content for them, yet they are worknig for that network. It is like my saying I do not beleive in abortion but working in a clinic that does them becuase they pay more. If you think something is wrong, then you shouldn't support it, period.

 

[VickiVM]

EXACTLY! Thery are "good kids" not because they want to be, but because they are too brianwashed to do any differently.

Seriously...good kids are brainwashed?? That's the equivalent of saying they are really "bad kids" had it not been for the cult-like brainwashing.

Don't we all "brainwash" our children to be polite, use good manners, make good choices? It's called good parenting. You may not like the style, but it's effective.

So you don't agree, ok - but good golly, you don't have to discredit the children for perfectly lovely behavior traits.

 

[DopeyDame]

Seriously...good kids are brainwashed?? That's the equivalent of saying they are really "bad kids" had it not been for the cult-like brainwashing.

Don't we all "brainwash" our children to be polite, use good manners, make good choices? It's called good parenting. You may not like the style, but it's effective.

So you don't agree, ok - but good golly, you don't have to discredit the children for perfectly lovely behavior traits.

It actually makes me sad that people assume that having a large household with polite, old-fashioned kids means the kids are somehow "brainwashed." Teaching children appropriate behavior in line with your personal morals and values is called PARENTING, not brainwashing. Or maybe I'm desperately trying to brainwash DS2 into "using his words" instead of tantruming, saying please and thank you, and brushing his teeth at bed time.

What - exactly - constitutes brainwashing, and what behaviors in the Duggar or Bates household indicate brainwashing is going on?

I couldn't imagine having that many children (some days one is more than I can handle!) but I'm not sure I understand the outrage sometimes directed at them.

 

[princessmom29]

Seriously...good kids are brainwashed?? That's the equivalent of saying they are really "bad kids" had it not been for the cult-like brainwashing.

Don't we all "brainwash" our children to be polite, use good manners, make good choices? It's called good parenting. You may not like the style, but it's effective.

So you don't agree, ok - but good golly, you don't have to discredit the children for perfectly lovely behavior traits.

You totally missed the pont. Not all good kids are brainwashed, but I do beleive based on personal experience that most who are part of this particular sect likely are. They have no choices. If they want to survive in thier environment with any quality of life, they comply. In groups like this you toe the line if you want any sort of interaction with others. That is not good parenting. Teaching our children to CHOOSE to do good because it is the right thing to do is.

 

[princessmom29]

It actually makes me sad that people assume that having a large household with polite, old-fashioned kids means the kids are somehow "brainwashed." Teaching children appropriate behavior in line with your personal morals and values is called PARENTING, not brainwashing. Or maybe I'm desperately trying to brainwash DS2 into "using his words" instead of tantruming, saying please and thank you, and brushing his teeth at bed time.

What - exactly - constitutes brainwashing, and what behaviors in the Duggar or Bates household indicate brainwashing is going on?

I couldn't imagine having that many children (some days one is more than I can handle!) but I'm not sure I understand the outrage sometimes directed at them.

watch the very first Duggar special. Those kids had been taught exactly what to say and how to say it at all times when questioned about thier life, family, or beliefs. They have gotten a lot better since the cameras came in, but the way they were in the beginning is indicative of the way most of these families actually live day to day. Their kids are taught what to think, NOT how to think for themselves. THAT is my outrage. They are promoting a lifetstyle that treats children as chattle to be controlled and used as an army for the coming armegeddon. That is the REAL purpose in having all of thoase children. The term Quiverfull comes for ma biblical passage about having a quiver full of arrows for the coming war. Read the literature about quiverfull if you want to know what they really believe. The TV protrayl is just that, ar portrayl of and idyllic, wholesome family. Most don't live the way the Duggars do.

 

[VickiVM]

You totally missed the pont. Not all good kids are brainwashed, but I do beleive based on personal experience that most who are part of this particular sect likely are. They have no choices. If they want to survive in thier environment with any quality of life, they comply. In groups like this you toe the line if you want any sort of interaction with others. That is not good parenting. Teaching our children to CHOOSE to do good because it is the right thing to do is.

Wow, just wow!

Then we have a cult in my house and we brainwash our kids. I expect my 3 teenagers to tow the line, so to speak, if they want to keep their cell phones, have a social life, drive the car, etc. Heck, I've even been known to ask them to take turns saying grace before dinner (oh so cultish), attend church with the family....AND Sunday School.

My job is to prepare them to go out into the world, live out their faith, work for what they need and want and give back to others. I don't give them choices of other lifestyles. They may choose differently once they are on their own, but while in my home, they mind their parents and those in authority.

 

[DopeyDame]

watch the very first Duggar special. Those kids had been taught exactly what to say and how to say it at all times when questioned about thier life, family, or beliefs. They have gotten a lot better since the cameras came in, but the way they were in the beginning is indicative of the way most of these families actually live day to day. Their kids are taught what to think, NOT how to think for themselves. THAT is my outrage. They are promoting a lifetstyle that treats children as chattle to be controlled and used as an army for the coming armegeddon. That is the REAL purpose in having all of thoase children. The term Quiverfull comes for ma biblical passage about having a quiver full of arrows for the coming war. Read the literature about quiverfull if you want to know what they really believe. The TV protrayl is just that, ar portrayl of and idyllic, wholesome family. Most don't live the way the Duggars do.

I admitadly don't know anything at all about the "quiverfull beliefs" - didn't even know there was such a thing until this thread. Maybe if you gave us some examples we'd understand the outrage better. I've only seen the show a few times, so I don't know much about them other than what is portrayed, but I haven't seen anything to cause me outrage or to be overly concerned about them.

It's a fine, difficult line for a parent to tread between WHAT to think and HOW to think. It's one I struggle with. On some topics, I am absolutely, 100% OK with teaching my son WHAT to think. I definitely want him to learn that smoking is bad, for example. People can disagree on that stance, but I'm not going to let him learn and explore the topic on his own. Even now at 2 years old, I comment on stinky smoking to "brainwash" him into thinking that smoking is icky and bad.

I have no doubt that there are families out there who brainwash and abuse their children, unfortunately. I just haven't seen any indication that the Duggars (or the Bates) are those families, and it makes me a little uncomfortable that people often jump to "weird" or "brainwashed" when a kid espouses strong beliefs in a certain set of morals.

 

[DopeyDame]

They are promoting a lifetstyle that treats children as chattle to be controlled and used as an army for the coming armegeddon. That is the REAL purpose in having all of thoase children. The term Quiverfull comes for ma biblical passage about having a quiver full of arrows for the coming war. Read the literature about quiverfull if you want to know what they really believe. The TV protrayl is just that, ar portrayl of and idyllic, wholesome family. Most don't live the way the Duggars do.

So I went to wikipedia, and here is the bible passage you mention (as cited by wikipedia, granted, but still...)
Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD:
and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man;
so are children of the youth.
Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them:
they shall not be ashamed,
but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

That sounds like an awesome thing to me, not a passage telling people to prepare lots of kids for an army.

When my husband and I got married, we discussed having a large family (as in 4 or 5, not 19!) and "willingly accepting children from God" as we vowed at our wedding. I guess you could call us quiverfull followers as we really did intend to have as many kids as God had planned for us. Turns out, God planned for us not to have any biological kids, as we adopted our DS, but I don't see anything inherently evil in NOT using birth control. (NOTE: I am not saying people shouldn't use birth control, just that NOT limiting kids isn't wrong either.)

Again, there could be alot going on under the surface that I (and all of us) don't know about, but I think a lot of the negative reaction just comes from people being uncomfortable with how different their lifestyle is, and that saddens me.

 

[Hannathy]

Wow, just wow!

Then we have a cult in my house and we brainwash our kids. I expect my 3 teenagers to tow the line, so to speak, if they want to keep their cell phones, have a social life, drive the car, etc. Heck, I've even been known to ask them to take turns saying grace before dinner (oh so cultish), attend church with the family....AND Sunday School.

My job is to prepare them to go out into the world, live out their faith, work for what they need and want and give back to others. I don't give them choices of other lifestyles. They may choose differently once they are on their own, but while in my home, they mind their parents and those in authority.

cell phone? Social life? drive the car? You don't mean alone now do you?
There is a huge difference in having well behaved children and brainwashed kids! My goodness. Do your children get to pick what they wear? or do they all wear the exact same dress as each other? do they get to pick friends? Are they allowed to express a difference of opinion? heck are they even allowed to think they may have a difference of opinion?
Are they allowed to speak to kids who don't go to your church?
I just can't believe anyone who isn't just purposefully trying to be obtuse can't see the difference in brainwashed children and normal well behaved kids. Wow just wow

 

[cari12]

Again, I am not an expert on these families but from the little I have read there is a big difference between the Duggars and the Bates. The Duggars have a TV show where they are followed around at every moment. I view that as exploiting their children. Some may disagree but that is my feeling. Someone correct me if I am wrong but the Bates family does not have a TV show. They have made a few appearances on some shows but they don't have cameras in their faces 24/7 exploiting their children. If that is the case, I have more respect for the Bates family.

I thought their lifestyle was fascinating. Nothing I would ever do but still fascinating. They seem to truly love their kids and the kids seem to be very well behaved and mature. I did not like that the oldest boy had the forethought to start his own business but he is constantly loaning money out to siblings and parents to make ends meets. I would never expect my children to fund their siblings and us because we kept having more children than we were capable of supporting.

The only other thing I had an issue with was when they made a statement that it was God that decided if they should have more children; they wouldn't interfere with what God had planned for them. However, they didn't have any problems giving the wife hormones to build up her chances of having a viable pregnancy because her uterine lining was too thin because of all the births. In my opinion, this was God telling them that they were done having babies. I understand the reasoning that they wouldn't take a pill to end a pregnancy because that is killing a life in their eyes. I don't understand how they don't see that by taking drugs to build up her uterine lining, she is screwing with mother nature and God's plan. Many people do the same thing but most don't preach about God's plan and contradict that plan by taking hormones.

I agree with what you are saying regarding the hormones-if your body can't have anymore naturally, then you are done.
Also-perhaps the Bates are doing these few interviews because they are looking for a cushy deal like their friends the Duggars have. Perhaps that is their financial plan. The Duggars started out just doing a few appearances and now they have their own show and I think 2 books -they are doing very well!

 

[DopeyDame]

Do your children get to pick what they wear? Within reason, but I absolutely reserve the right to say "no way, no how, are you leaving this house looking like that."
or do they all wear the exact same dress as each other? I went to Catholic schools. Every day of my school life I wore the exact same dress (well, jumper and then skirt and sweater) as my sisters and all of my classmates.
do they get to pick friends? Again, within reason. I wouldn't hesitate to tell my child "sorry, but little Johnny isn't someone I want you around." And at least part of the reason my parents sent me to Catholic school was so that i was around families who were more likely to share their values and beliefs.
Are they allowed to express a difference of opinion? Express? usually but not always. Carry out? sometimes, but not always. DS2 sure expressed his opinion a few nights ago that it was NOT bedtime. And for that, he got a timeout. And he also still went to bed on time. heck are they even allowed to think they may have a difference of opinion? Yup, given that no one can control another's thoughts, I'm afraid you do have me on this one.
Are they allowed to speak to kids who don't go to your church? Again, see my comment on why my parents sent me to Catholic school. they didn't prevent me from talking to non-Catholic kids, but they certainly set up my life so most of my interaction would be with other Catholics. (And yet I still married an agnostic. my poor parents! )
I just can't believe anyone who isn't just purposefully trying to be obtuse can't see the difference in brainwashed children and normal well behaved kids. Wow just wow Like I said - I understand that some kids are brainwashed and abused. I'm still not sure that that applies to the Duggars or the Bates. I'm not sure that it DOESN'T given how little we all know about their day to day lives, but having lots of kids and not kissing until you're married doesn't inherently mean you're brainwashed.

.

 

[NY Disney fan]

EXACTLY! Thery are "good kids" not because they want to be, but because they are too brianwashed to do any differently.

Hey, if brainwashing works, I'm all for it. Its something to fall back on when they discover the real world.

 

[spacemountainmom]

I don't really care what these families do or don't do for the most part. It does not affect me at all. However, I do find it a bit bothersome about all the rules about how the girls dress.

In one episode, a couple of the older Duggar girls were working with the local fire dept. and had issues because there wasn't a skirt option for the uniform. They get all wound up about modesty and apparently men cannot control themselves when they see a woman in pants or an above the ankle skirt. How about we expect that men learn a bit of self-control???

The girls ended up purchasing a pair of the uniform pants and creating a skirt. I just don't get it. Those pants were not supposed to look sexy, why are they a problem? Oh yeah, those men just won't be able to restrain themselves when they see a girl in those fabulous uniform pants.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for a reasonable amount of modesty. I have a teenage daughter and work in a middle school and am rather shocked at what some parents are ok with. Honestly, is there not a happy medium in there???