Teachers are giving me a hard time pulling kids out of school

No, that is not what I said but I do believe that the attendance rules were implemented for a reason.

If the problems that have lead to the implementation of these rules have been fixed, then parents can work with the district to change the rules, to make them more lax.

My point was - if you don't like the rules, get involved and help change them.

Oh, I don't think the problems that have led to attendance rules have changed. There will always be loser parents and there will always be kids who can't handle missing even a single instructional day. The question, IMO, is whether good parents and good students should be held to a standard created for the bottom 10%.

As far as changing the rules, with less and less local control in education, that often isn't as simple as it seems. Look at Texas, for example, where the fines and criminal penalties are a matter of state law. We have family there who did work successfully to have family vacations added to their district's list of excused absences, only to have the state legislature define them as illegal a short time later. And then there is NCLB; I've yet to hear from anyone who thinks that is a good law, but changing something on the federal level takes years, if it gets done at all, and all parents can do is write/e-mail representatives that may or may not be receptive or responsive to their concerns.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinkmom75
All this mentality about how a student must be in a seat in a classroom makes me wonder how on earth colleges get away with online classes. How on earth do people manage to telecommute for their jobs ? ...

Originally posted by:sbell111
That is an apples to oranges comparison.

If a student falls behind in an online class, he doesn't affect the performance of the rest of the class. If a telecommuting worker doesn't perform, you fire him.

And if a student does not complete the work and make the grade on the tests they get a lower grade.

Originally posted by:Indiana Rose Lee

An Interactive math course is far different than doing a handful of worksheets and reading a text, imo. Is that all your child did? College courses are for people who have the maturity to learn, and really, an internet course that is merely reading and tests does not provide the same information as a course with interaction.Actually there was a lot more than reading and tests. Don't dismiss it as being subpar. I would have had him do an even better program, but the school system wanted him to do the one he did. By the way my son gets "left behind all the time". He is gifted and the school doesn't have the funds to provide a gifted curriculum.

Teacher salaries vary a great deal by state, and considering that most teachers have Master's degrees or are in the midst of attaining them, the salary stinks. They do have nice vacations and hours. And decent retirement benefits.

And, where do you get your stats regarding salaried working hours? Made up?
No they are not made up. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary Yes I know salaries vary. How many of you make less than the quoted amount? Also, if you take into account you are working 9 months it would be more like $53,000 if you worked 12 months. That is not bad at all. The teachers in Michigan have way more than decent benefits. Oh, by the way while most people are getting reduction of benefits, no COLA, laid off or reduced hours, the teachers in my district all just got a raise.
 
My DD took a trip to NYC over Labor Day (with my sister's family). She missed one day of school. The principal would not allow it as an excused absence. To me it was a big learning experience for her....the school says it wasn't. Her teachers luckily let her make up all the work she missed and she was allowed to turn in some work that she would have done over the weekend a bit late.
 
What do you do with the behaviorally challenged kids? You know the ones that throw desks, swear, threaten or hurt other kids and or teachers, in essence destroy learning time for those who need it? The ones who smoke pot in the bathrooms and are often taken out in handcuffs? If you say that you keep them, educate them and make them behave then PLEASE come to my city/and or state and show the charter schools how to handle them because the way they do it is to ship them to us. If it is a strict lottery then tell me how come so many of them who cannot cut the mustard show up in public schools? Do you have an entrance exam?

To answer your first question, yes we have kids who demonstrate all of those behaviors. Well, I personally don't deal with the pot issue since I work with young kids, but the rest is certainly familiar. And yes, we keep those kids, we write IEPs and provide therapists, and bring in behavior specialists, and do what we need to do to improve their behavior. Very occasionally the IEP team will decide that a child needs more than can be provided in our school, and we'll convene a meeting and present our case to the state who will find the child an alternative placement in a private school for children with disabilities, however we do that far less frequently than our regular public schools do despite the fact that they have self-contained classrooms for children with disabilities that they can try as an interim step. We also have the right to expel children, but only for behaviors that the public schools can also expel children. For example, we can expel a child who brings a handgun to school or deals drugs on campus. We can also refuse to admit a child who has been expelled from a public school within the past year, as they can refuse to admit a child who has been expelled by us.

Having said that, not all charter schools do a great job, and some of them aren't good at problem solving around challenging behavior. The same can be said for regular public schools as well. I can point to schools in my city that are absolute chaos, both public and charter. And while a school can't expel a child who is causing chaos in the classroom, a parent can certainly decide to withdraw them and enroll them elsewhere. Given that, yes I'm sure the public schools get children with out of control behavior from the charter schools, it happens the other way around too. And yes, it's frustrating when you get a child in your program whose issues have grown out of control because no one handled it appropriately, but it's not a one way street.

As far as sharing our practices, that's one of the big purposes of charter schools. They allow for some more experimentation within public schools so that we can figure out what works for urban education. Our local schools know what doesn't work, but because of the level of bureaucracy they deal with they aren't free to experiment and discover something that does work. Charter schools, because they're smaller, more flexible, and have less oversight, are able to do that experimentation. Sometimes they find something else that doesn't work, and those charter schools either need to find a new model or risk being closed. Sometimes they find something that works for a certain slice of the population, and they develop a niche working with that slice -- for example in our city we have charter schools that focus on students looking to move into the building trades, as well as those that focus on adjudicated youth or Chinese immersion -- we all know that these aren't models that will work district wide, but they're good options to have. Sometimes we find models that work, and produce better results than the public school. Those schools have a responsibility to disseminate that knowledge. I know we do that by hosting student teachers, holding workshops, partnering for professional development with schools who want to improve, etc . . .

As to exams, where I live entrance exams are illegal in charter schools. You can have exams after students are admitted for the purpose of grouping kids. For example, you can have all your incoming 9th graders come in for a test to determine whether they take Algebra 1 or Geometry or some other form of math. However, you can't change the actual grade assignment of a student based on that, or use that data to discourage a child in any way from attending.

Where I live/work children entering charter schools have, on average, lower skills than the children in public schools. This makes sense, generally parents whose children are performing poorly are more likely to pull them and seek new placements. On the other hand, children who have been in charter schools at the elementary school level for several years, perform on par with their public school counterparts -- so the charter schools have helped them close the gap. At the high school level, students in charter schools significantly out perform their peers. In some charter schools (like mine) students at all levels who have been in the school for 2 years or longer outperform their peers.
 

yes it is normal, at least in the schools I've been in to have at least 3 that need it regularly. For example, last year I had one with emotional issues, one 3 grade levels behind, and one that really just needed someone to love them. And as a teacher, I just put a smile on and deal with it. It may not be as prevalent in suburban schools or higher economic areas, but in our school it seems to be common that there are about 3 in each class that need some type of attention. But I love each one of my 44 kids, no matter how crazy they drive me. So for that one that needs me to give her one direction at a time and the one that was in my class last year that stops by to see me everyday just so I can show him I still love him... I am ok with it because I know that in some way, shape, or form, I am helping them...academically or emotionally. Don't get me wrong... I will get so frustrated that I will gripe and be stressed, but at the end of the year, I will be sad to let them go onto 4th grade.
44 children? is that broken into different classes? and do you mean normal for 3 out of 44 or if it is per class???? not sure.....
My daughter's 1st grade is limited to 17 children and they do not "switch" classes but they do go to a different teacher for pe, science, media and art.
 
What about working to make the existing school system better? By getting involved in the schools you can help set/fix policies.

Your kids are not yours if they go to public school because they can't go on vacation when YOU want to go? Seriously? Your kids are in school for six or seven hours a day, what about the other 17 or 18 hours? Even accounting for sleep time, you interact with your children for over a quarter of their day. What about weekends, summer and other breaks?

The way to improve the school system is by getting involved. I often find the people who complain the most are the ones who sit back and do nothing to make them better. I never see these parents at council meetings, at sporting or fund raising events, yet when I see them in the grocery store they do nothing but complain. That doesn't fly with me.

A pretty large part of the time that is supposed to be family time is consumed with homework and projects because the schools think they have an obligation to micromanage every waking hour that each child has. We get summer reading and math projects and hours of homework every night. We get notes sent home right before vacations telling us that the reason that little Suzy has to do complicated, busywork projects is that the teacher thinks it would be nice if we spent our vacation time working together on reconstructing an elaborate food web (needing lots of colored illustrations, a poster, a diorama and an essay) of an aquatic habitat. As parents, we can't be trusted to decide how to spend our family time.

Maybe you live in a district that seeks out parental input. Good for you. I used to be idealistic enough to think that was the norm until we had kids. Ours seeks out people to do endless fundraising, but they do not want any input whatsoever about policies, curriculum, staffing or anything that actually has any impact at all on our child's educational experience, beyond funding enrichment and sports. And they make that crystal clear.

I could run for the school board, but that's more of a commitment than I can take on at this point in my life. To expect that everyone can have this level of involvement is unrealistic. Our current school board rubber stamps everything that the administration proposes. I read the minutes and have attended some school board meetings and there hasn't been a dissenting vote about a single thing in the last 10 years.

I don't ever participate in fundraisers. But please don't make the assumption that parents who don't aren't contributing to the school. I send in a large check to the PTA in lieu of purchasing overpriced crap for corporate America, using my kids as an unpaid sales force. My contributions go entirely to the school, not to Sally Foster.
 
Ours seeks out people to do endless fundraising, but they do not want any input whatsoever about policies, curriculum, staffing or anything that actually has any impact at all on our child's educational experience, beyond funding enrichment and sports. And they make that crystal clear.

This is exactly what happened to me. I was on a board about enrichment programs. The Assistant Super. was the head of the board. He said your job is to find a way to fund enrichment. My job is to find the curriculum. He didn't want any input on programs period!
 
sbell111 said:
Tinkmom75 said:
All this mentality about how a student must be in a seat in a classroom makes me wonder how on earth colleges get away with online classes. How on earth do people manage to telecommute for their jobs ? ...
That is an apples to oranges comparison.

If a student falls behind in an online class, he doesn't affect the performance of the rest of the class. If a telecommuting worker doesn't perform, you fire him.
And if a student does not complete the work and make the grade on the tests they get a lower grade.
True, but their floundering also affects the other childrens' performance, as I earlier explained.
 
I'm a high school teacher, and I understand the hesitation about sending out daily e-mails to make sure that your child keeps on top of assignments. To you it's a quick message.

To me it is much more than that. I don't know how your child's classes are, but I do not rely on the textbook to do my teaching. It is difficult, if not impossible for me to convey what we covered in a day by typing a five minute e-mail. That means I would have to type up the class notes for the day and attach images and primary source documents. To do less would cheapen what I am trying to teach and put your child behind when he returns. This could take me anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. I'm not happy about having to do that because you want to take your family to Disney World during school.

Then, what happens when your child has questions? More e-mail for me. Then your child is understandably behind when he returns, which means I will have to spend time with him after school. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to do it, but realize that my work day is now increased because I still have papers to grade and lessons to prepare. All because you wanted to go on vacation.

I hope your family has a wonderful time on vacation, but please cut you kids teachers some slack. ;)

Melissa

Teachers do enough.No,I'm not a teacher but know quite a few who are. its a thankless job where more and more of their personal time is required in order to get their requirements completed. I don't know many people that would work on their own time for free.
 
Yep, my staight A students going to Disney and missing some class time is going affect all the other students in the class, but it does not matter that my children are advanced and have had to spend a lot of time helping out classmates who are behind or just reading a book (which they could do at home). Hmm, seems like the should be learning during that time, but no they grasp the concept really quick and have to do tons of busy work because all the other students are behind. It has worked out just wonderful for my kids.:rolleyes:
 
Teachers do enough.No,I'm not a teacher but know quite a few who are. its a thankless job where more and more of their personal time is required in order to get their requirements completed. I don't know many people that would work on their own time for free.
I do not hate any of my teachers so don't get me wrong, but salaried employees are expected to work more than 40 hours a week. They are not working for free on their own time. My DH is salaried. He doesn't get paid more when we get a call in the middle of the night for his job. He often gets up and goes into work. It is what is expected of him in his job.
 
Yep, my staight A students going to Disney and missing some class time is going affect all the other students in the class, but it does not matter that my children are advanced and have had to spend a lot of time helping out classmates who are behind or just reading a book (which they could do at home). Hmm, seems like the should be learning during that time, but no they grasp the concept really quick and have to do tons of busy work because all the other students are behind. It has worked out just wonderful for my kids.:rolleyes:

1. Teaching your peers is one of the best ways to learn; helping out others is an important skill - please don't tell me that's an entire waste of your child's education. Too much of it is, yes, but it has great consolidation impacts.

2. If your kids are reading a book instead of subject-related work (which INCLUDES reading relevant material) then you need to be onto the school.

3. If your kids are really that far advanced over their classmates, you need to talk to the school about having them accelerated a year, or consider homeschooling them to meet their needs if you don't feel the school can accomplish this.

4. Having kids taking vacation DOES disrupt others; that's another issue to your complaints entirely. Children struggling at school cannot be compared with children taking voluntary vacation time.
 
1. Teaching your peers is one of the best ways to learn; helping out others is an important skill - please don't tell me that's an entire waste of your child's education. Too much of it is, yes, but it has great consolidation impacts.

2. If your kids are reading a book instead of subject-related work (which INCLUDES reading relevant material) then you need to be onto the school.

3. If your kids are really that far advanced over their classmates, you need to talk to the school about having them accelerated a year, or consider homeschooling them to meet their needs if you don't feel the school can accomplish this.

4. Having kids taking vacation DOES disrupt others; that's another issue to your complaints entirely. Children struggling at school cannot be compared with children taking voluntary vacation time.

Trust me I have been into the school. I have talked to each teacher, principle (we have different schools every two years in elementary), and the Superintendent. I was on a commitee for gifted enrichment as I commented earlier. I guess all the funding is for the children who are behind and not the advanced ones. The district basically didn't believe me (even though every teacher said my child was brilliant). I finally made them give him and IQ test. It was 134. Anyway, the school has fought me tooth and nail about gifted programing or advancing my son in any form. They finally made a very small effort. I've checked into other schools, they don't seem to have good advanced programs in this area. I do enrich my son at home. Anyway, that is a whole other story. I'm just saying you can have vacation and still learn and do very well in school. I never noticed a disruption when any of my classmates went on vacation.
 
A pretty large part of the time that is supposed to be family time is consumed with homework and projects because the schools think they have an obligation to micromanage every waking hour that each child has. We get summer reading and math projects and hours of homework every night. We get notes sent home right before vacations telling us that the reason that little Suzy has to do complicated, busywork projects is that the teacher thinks it would be nice if we spent our vacation time working together on reconstructing an elaborate food web (needing lots of colored illustrations, a poster, a diorama and an essay) of an aquatic habitat. As parents, we can't be trusted to decide how to spend our family time.



.

Great points. School does suck up a lot of time...

My son leaves the house every day at 8:15 and doesn't get home until 4:30.

With an 8:30 bedtime, that leaves 4 hours....not 8 or 12 -- to get EVERYTHING done, including homework, speech therapy, dinner, bath, and God forbid, playtime.
 
I have not read this entire thread but thought that I would post regarding the policy in our district. If a child is absent for an unexcused reason (including a trip), the teacher is not required to provide the child with any of the materials or instruction that they are missing while gone. The child also gets a "0" for all assignments that they miss due to an unexcused absence.
 
And if a student does not complete the work and make the grade on the tests they get a lower grade.

Originally posted by:Indiana Rose Lee

No they are not made up. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary Yes I know salaries vary. How many of you make less than the quoted amount? Also, if you take into account you are working 9 months it would be more like $53,000 if you worked 12 months. That is not bad at all. The teachers in Michigan have way more than decent benefits. Oh, by the way while most people are getting reduction of benefits, no COLA, laid off or reduced hours, the teachers in my district all just got a raise.

Actually you made my point re. the math course. It takes interaction, rather than the text reading that you seemed to be saying was all that was necessary.

Teachers here are being laid off every year. Schools are condensing to save money. We have two local teacher colleges, and all of the students are having to leave the area.

As for made up stats, I understand the concept of the median teacher salary...thanks. I am referring to your comment about the hours "expected" from salaried employees. I know appoximately 3 salaried employees who work over 40 hours. That would be out of 100's of people.
 
And if a student does not complete the work and make the grade on the tests they get a lower grade.

Originally posted by:Indiana Rose Lee

No they are not made up. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary Yes I know salaries vary. How many of you make less than the quoted amount? Also, if you take into account you are working 9 months it would be more like $53,000 if you worked 12 months. That is not bad at all. The teachers in Michigan have way more than decent benefits. Oh, by the way while most people are getting reduction of benefits, no COLA, laid off or reduced hours, the teachers in my district all just got a raise.

I promised myself to stay out of this topic, but I can't anymore. If the benefits, pension and days off of a teacher are so important to you, than why don't you go back to become one? It's easy to sit there and think that the grass is always greener on the other side but it's not always.

My dad is a teacher of over 35 years. This summer he decided to redo our kitchen - the cabinets and countertops. Thankfully we have countertops, but as of right now, we have no cabinet doors or even shelves. School started up and his students come before his home. Who knows when we'll have cabinets doors again! LOL! Anyway, what I'm saying is that he works WAY over 40 hours a week. It's not now 4:40 pm. His school day is technically over at 3:45 PM. If he is home for dinner by 7 pm, I'll be shocked.

He works darn hard for the money he earns and it really bothers me when people basically say that teachers dont deserve/earn the money they make.
 
Wow - this thread is really something else.

I guess dd and I are very lucky that she has such a wonderful school to go to where parents and teachers work together and not against each other.

As long as there are children there will be a need for teachers. As as long as there are students teachers will need to deal with parents.

Both sides need to take a step back here.

Teachers are there to do a job. Just like in any other job they have a boss to answer to. They have rules they have to follow. Even if you homeschool your child you are still given guidelines to follow. Sometimes a teachers hands are tied in what they can do.

Parents are a vital part of the school system and can be a major force for change. If you do not like the policies then you need to be vocal about as well as take steps to change the policies.

I have taken my dd out of school for a week each year for vacation purposes. This past year she started state testing. I waited until the week after to take her out. So far all of her teachers have been wonderful. I approach them, ask about the policies of the district on this matter and then ask how we as a team can handle it. Last year they were working on biographies. DD was able to choose Walt Disney (we did go to WDW). DD looked at WDW completely differently and was able to write a great report and give an even better presentation on him.

Now... I also serve on her school districts attendace review board as the parent rep. This is like the truancy court for the district. If the families do not adhere to our requirements then the case is passed our to the state court system.

The families I have seen are not the families that have taken thier child out of school for a week of vacation. These families have many more issues present in the home. Yes, the school may not excuse the absence. That is thier policy but... you will not end up in court unless it is extremely excessive. ETA: There are many steps in place before coming before our board.

If your family values vacation time and the only time you can go is during the school year (as in my situation) then I would suggest you find out the school/district policies, contact your teacher(s) and work with them to make it happen. Will the teachers be happy about it - maybe/maybe not? But taking the team approach has worked for me.

After all when it comes down to it we all are really after what is best for the children.
 
44 children? is that broken into different classes? and do you mean normal for 3 out of 44 or if it is per class???? not sure.....
My daughter's 1st grade is limited to 17 children and they do not "switch" classes but they do go to a different teacher for pe, science, media and art.

That is 2 classes worth of kids. I team teach so I have 22 in my homeroom and now 23 in the other class that I teach 3 subjects to. I would say 3 out of 22 is about normal. I'm not saying 3 children with IEPs and what not in each class. But definitely 3 that just need that extra attention somehow. I WISH we had 17 children per class... but that won't ever happen. That is another thing that needs to be pushed, smaller class sizes...but that is a whole new debate.
 
I promised myself to stay out of this topic, but I can't anymore. If the benefits, pension and days off of a teacher are so important to you, than why don't you go back to become one? It's easy to sit there and think that the grass is always greener on the other side but it's not always.

My dad is a teacher of over 35 years. This summer he decided to redo our kitchen - the cabinets and countertops. Thankfully we have countertops, but as of right now, we have no cabinet doors or even shelves. School started up and his students come before his home. Who knows when we'll have cabinets doors again! LOL! Anyway, what I'm saying is that he works WAY over 40 hours a week. It's not now 4:40 pm. His school day is technically over at 3:45 PM. If he is home for dinner by 7 pm, I'll be shocked.

He works darn hard for the money he earns and it really bothers me when people basically say that teachers dont deserve/earn the money they make.

I never said teachers don't work hard. I said that salaried employees are usually expected to work more hours. I never said they didn't deserve/earn the money they make. Your dad probably does not complain the way some (not all teachers) have been on this board. I'm just saying all professions have aspects to them that we don't like. If teaching is so terrible and terrible pay then why would they do it. I really don't think most teachers think it as terrible as some people say. One person went so far as to say 50% of the students were bad eggs. Why on earth would you be a teacher if you thought that?
 















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