SSR Price Increased to $120/pt.

[dbs1228]

I still think Disney is going to put restrictions on resale vs. direct sales sometime in the near future and that will justify to some people to buy direct with the crazy prices.

 

[RescueRanger]

I still think Disney is going to put restrictions on resale vs. direct sales sometime in the near future and that will justify to some people to buy direct with the crazy prices.

When all of that talk of resale restrictions vs buying direct first started, I was thinking where there is smoke, there is usually fire. I too think Disney has something up their sleeve. It would not surprise me at all if sometime next year Disney puts limitations on contracts bought through resale. Honestly, I don't think Disney cares one bit what the resale values would drop to. They have already made their money on those contracts. All they are going to be worried about is getting top dollar for the new contracts.

 

[McCrae]

When all of that talk of resale restrictions vs buying direct first started, I was thinking where there is smoke, there is usually fire. I too think Disney has something up their sleeve. It would not surprise me at all if sometime next year Disney puts limitations on contracts bought through resale. Honestly, I don't think Disney cares one bit what the resale values would drop to. They have already made their money on those contracts. All they are going to be worried about is getting top dollar for the new contracts.

This would be very difficult for Disney to do legally. They cant stop the resale market and if they tried it would really damage DVC. The cannot make people only deal with Disney in the resale market, it's against the law.
ROFR is the most they can do.

 

[BRERALEX]

Hello,

My family bought into BLT in August. At that time it seemed the rep was only pushing BLT, Hawaii and AKL. Was SSR available in August?

SSR is not our cup of tea but I am confused because I believe this was not an option to buy in to. We were shown the AKL and BLT room, the model of Hawaii's resort and the treehouse villa model.

Any clarification is appreciated, I know its OT.

Update
I just checked with the wife and we are 100% sure we were not told about SSR in August. It was just AKL, BLT and the Hawaii DVC. This whole time I was under the impression SSR was only available through resale.

 

[zev]

I am more then happy to sell my SSR at $85 a point.......any takers.

 

[SSR]

Hello,

My family bought into BLT in August. At that time it seemed the rep was only pushing BLT, Hawaii and AKL. Was SSR available in August?

SSR is not our cup of tea but I am confused because I believe this was not an option to buy in to. We were shown the AKL and BLT room, the model of Hawaii's resort and the treehouse villa model.

Any clarification is appreciated, I know its OT.

Update
I just checked with the wife and we are 100% sure we were not told about SSR in August. It was just AKL, BLT and the Hawaii DVC. This whole time I was under the impression SSR was only available through resale.

Unfortunately, the salesman is under no obligation to tell you what you can buy. If you asked "is SSR" available, and s/he lied, then that's a different matter.

It's an us vs. them kind of thing during these presentations and negotiations.

 

[tjkraz]

This would be very difficult for Disney to do legally. They cant stop the resale market and if they tried it would really damage DVC. The cannot make people only deal with Disney in the resale market, it's against the law.
ROFR is the most they can do.

No, it wouldn't be difficult or illegal. In fact, most other timeshares already offer different benefits to direct vs. resale buyers. As long as all owners are still afforded the rights listed in the POS, DVC wouldn't be doing anything illegal.

All perk programs and trades outside of DVC (cruises, non-DVC resorts) are listed as "subject to change at any time." There is nothing legally preventing DVC from making things like cruise bookings or the AP discount available to direct buyers only.

Even something like booking rights could be impacted. The POS only says that members will have a one month advantage at their home resort. I don't see anything that would legally prevent DVC from having 11/7 windows for direct buyers and 8/7 for resale buyers.

As to whether DVC would go this route and the likely impact on their business model, that's certainly open to debate.

Personally I'm surprised DVC hasn't offered SOME (perhaps small) direct purchase benefit to date.

If (when?) they do, I doubt many direct buyers will view it as a negative. In fact, Disney will certainly spin it in their favor: "you get all of these extra perks, but only if you buy from us!"

Resale values will undoubtedly drop to some degree due to lower demand, but I don't think many people seriously factor the ability to re-sell in their purchase decision. In other words, I don't see Disney losing many sales because they prospects are concerned about their ability to sell in the future--people just don't think about that.

Those who have become big fans of buying low on the resale market will be turned-off by such a move. But DVC doesn't really have much to lose by upsetting those folks anyway.

 

[DenLo]

My opinion, I agree with TJ, this is a push to sell BLT, which is not selling as well as we might be lead to believe.

Also they need money from members to fix what is wrong with it.

SSR which might not be the favorite DVC child here on the DIS is aging extremely well compared to other resorts.

I think that BLT is selling well, it's out selling every other DVC resort including the sales at VCG (which now has closed). Check out, wdrl's thread about monthly sales, BLT is still selling way more points than any other resort. The fluctuations in BLT sales appear to be seasonal.

And yet BLT is not really holding its resale value that well considering contracts are already selling for $92-$95 per point.

The sellers maybe selling a (full or partially) stripped contract and are setting the price low to sell it. Or the owner may have add good incentives to begin with. I think we bought in at $104 per point and I know others said they had a better incentive than that.

 

[Mouse511]

I guess I am kind of confused - why would Disney care if someone bought their DVC contract through resale or direct ??? The resale contract was already purchased by someone direct from Disney in the first place.....they made their money off the initial sale. I would think that as long as someone is using the points and visiting WDW they are getting their money....it gets people to buy passes to the parks - eat at thier resturants - shop etc.......

Why would Disney care if someone bought resale or direct ? - Unless they wanted to exercise ROFR and buy the points back at very low price and resell them at a premium.....but I would think that would take a lot of cash upfront to sit on points to not know when you would actually sell them.

 

[rentayenta]

Hello,

My family bought into BLT in August. At that time it seemed the rep was only pushing BLT, Hawaii and AKL. Was SSR available in August?

SSR is not our cup of tea but I am confused because I believe this was not an option to buy in to. We were shown the AKL and BLT room, the model of Hawaii's resort and the treehouse villa model.

Any clarification is appreciated, I know its OT.

Update
I just checked with the wife and we are 100% sure we were not told about SSR in August. It was just AKL, BLT and the Hawaii DVC. This whole time I was under the impression SSR was only available through resale.

It is my understanding that SSR was available at that time. When we bought, the hard sell was BLT which we had no interest in. After BLT, they pushed AKV and GCV. We knew SSR was an option as that was the property we toured and eventually bought.

 

[tjkraz]

The sellers maybe selling a (full or partially) stripped contract and are setting the price low to sell it. Or the owner may have add good incentives to begin with. I think we bought in at $104 per point and I know others said they had a better incentive than that.

I know of direct sale prices that went as low as $96 each on BLT points.

Aside from that, resale prices have always been lower than direct. With the resale process being more time-consuming and filled with delays, a minimum 10-15% discount is to be expected.

All the The Timeshare Store's current BLT listings are $96 or up. And none of the $96 contracts have the current year's points available--something DVC offers on all BLT sales. Some even have points borrowed from 2011.

I guess I am kind of confused - why would Disney care if someone bought their DVC contract through resale or direct ???

Every buyer that goes resale is a lost sale to DVC.

Yes DVC did originally sell the points purchased on the resale market. But every time someone spends $20,000 (or whatever the amount) on a resale contract, that's $20k that went into the pockets of a private individual rather than DVCs.

 

[McCrae]

No, it wouldn't be difficult or illegal. In fact, most other timeshares already offer different benefits to direct vs. resale buyers. As long as all owners are still afforded the rights listed in the POS, DVC wouldn't be doing anything illegal.

All perk programs and trades outside of DVC (cruises, non-DVC resorts) are listed as "subject to change at any time." There is nothing legally preventing DVC from making things like cruise bookings or the AP discount available to direct buyers only.

Even something like booking rights could be impacted. The POS only says that members will have a one month advantage at their home resort. I don't see anything that would legally prevent DVC from having 11/7 windows for direct buyers and 8/7 for resale buyers.

As to whether DVC would go this route and the likely impact on their business model, that's certainly open to debate.

Personally I'm surprised DVC hasn't offered SOME (perhaps small) direct purchase benefit to date.

If (when?) they do, I doubt many direct buyers will view it as a negative. In fact, Disney will certainly spin it in their favor: "you get all of these extra perks, but only if you buy from us!"

Resale values will undoubtedly drop to some degree due to lower demand, but I don't think many people seriously factor the ability to re-sell in their purchase decision. In other words, I don't see Disney losing many sales because they prospects are concerned about their ability to sell in the future--people just don't think about that.

Those who have become big fans of buying low on the resale market will be turned-off by such a move. But DVC doesn't really have much to lose by upsetting those folks anyway.

You are correct to say that Disney can offer additional incentives to deal with them.

They cannot however force people to sell back to them. They must stick to the terms of the original offer document. As it stands they cannot differeniate between one member at the resort and another.
Disney could offer free passes etc for dealing with them, but they cannot say you are not allowed to exchange your points for another resort if they are allowing other members at the resort to do so.

In the orginal offer documents their is no option to have different types or tiers of membership.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

Never say never.....

You are correct to say that Disney can offer additional incentives to deal with them.

They cannot however force people to sell back to them. They must stick to the terms of the original offer document. As it stands they cannot differeniate between one member at the resort and another.
Disney could offer free passes etc for dealing with them, but they cannot say you are not allowed to exchange your points for another resort if they are allowing other members at the resort to do so.

In the orginal offer documents their is no option to have different types or tiers of membership.

 

[McCrae]

Never say never.....

I know where you are coming from....but Disney cannot change at a whim the conditions you buy your DVC membership.

The contract is binding on both sides. If the orginal contract allows a change it can be done, otherwise it cant.

 

[BRERALEX]

Thank you rentayenta and SSR.

I know BLT is where the family wanted in. But it is still interesting to now look back and see how it all was presented.

Thanks again.

 

[dizfan]

I know of direct sale prices that went as low as $96 each on BLT points.

We bought 160 for $96/pt back in May/June 2009. At that time, there were larger incentives for more points. Some people bought more points and had them put into smaller contracts at $92/pt.

No, it wouldn't be difficult or illegal. In fact, most other timeshares already offer different benefits to direct vs. resale buyers. As long as all owners are still afforded the rights listed in the POS, DVC wouldn't be doing anything illegal.

All perk programs and trades outside of DVC (cruises, non-DVC resorts) are listed as "subject to change at any time." There is nothing legally preventing DVC from making things like cruise bookings or the AP discount available to direct buyers only.

Even something like booking rights could be impacted. The POS only says that members will have a one month advantage at their home resort. I don't see anything that would legally prevent DVC from having 11/7 windows for direct buyers and 8/7 for resale buyers.

As to whether DVC would go this route and the likely impact on their business model, that's certainly open to debate.

Personally I'm surprised DVC hasn't offered SOME (perhaps small) direct purchase benefit to date.

If Disney added a direct vs resale policy that isn't tied to each point, simply buy most points via resale, then do a 25 point direct addon. Now you would be a direct owner.

As long as there is still one extra month for home resort, wouldn't only peak DVC times like early December and major holidays be of concern?
Does the POS prevent Disney from changing the non-home resort window for direct vs. resale?

Resale values will undoubtedly drop to some degree due to lower demand, but I don't think many people seriously factor the ability to re-sell in their purchase decision. In other words, I don't see Disney losing many sales because they prospects are concerned about their ability to sell in the future--people just don't think about that.

Those who have become big fans of buying low on the resale market will be turned-off by such a move. But DVC doesn't really have much to lose by upsetting those folks anyway.

Disney may decide to use ROFR on lower resale prices, then directly sell those points at the higher direct price. Less building would be required and Disney makes a higher profit.

 

[tjkraz]

They cannot however force people to sell back to them.

Never said they could and I agree. Although the ROFR clause DOES, in a very real sense, force members to sell points back to DVC under certain conditions.

They must stick to the terms of the original offer document. As it stands they cannot differeniate between one member at the resort and another.
Disney could offer free passes etc for dealing with them, but they cannot say you are not allowed to exchange your points for another resort if they are allowing other members at the resort to do so.

Sure they can. As long as it doesn't violate the POS, Disney has still left itself almost infinite flexibility.

Take the booking window. The POS only states that members will have at least a one month booking priority at their Home resort. It says nothing about the 11/7 month windows we have now. It says nothing about all members being treated equally. It's one of the vaguest, most open-ended clauses in the entire POS.

Disney could absolutely give direct buyers different resort booking rights and still adhere to the letter of the law, such as it is.

Take a look at Wyndham's VIP program sometime. They grant extra benefits not only to direct buyers but also depending upon how many points one owns. Those who are part of their Platinum VIP level get extra time to bank points, unit upgrades, additional housekeeping credits and even limited ability to book non-Home resorts at 11 months.

DVC has even surveyed members about their own version of a VIP club with high-point owners getting additional benefits.

All of the DVC perks and trade-out programs are listed as "subject to change." If the programs are changed such that only direct buyers can benefit--either partially or fully--that is well within their rights. The POS does not grant ANY members the right to get an AP discount, free Internet service or to book Disney Cruise Line on points. DVC would be violating nothing by narrowing the scope of those who can benefit.

The one caveat may be that member dues--which are paid by all--could not be involved in any of the perks which are only available to a small group. In other words, if member dues are paying for Internet service or Disney's Magical Express, I could see where DVC would be unable to restrict usage to just a small group.

That said, I don't believe DVC would do anything particularly extreme. It also seems likely they would grandfather all current owners in as VIP members. But only time will tell...

 

[tjkraz]

If Disney added a direct vs resale policy that isn't tied to each point, simply buy most points via resale, then do a 25 point direct addon. Now you would be a direct owner.

Depends on exactly how they administer it.

My understanding is that in Wyndham's system they count the exact number of points purchased from the developer and use that to determine status. Wyndham's has three separate VIP levels. Those levels are roughly equivalent to owning 300, 500 and 1000 DVC points. If DVC administers similarly, buying 25 points direct and the rest resale would still leave you 275 point short of any VIP benefits.

As long as there is still one extra month for home resort, wouldn't only peak DVC times like early December and major holidays be of concern?
Does the POS prevent Disney from changing the non-home resort window for direct vs. resale?

The POS guarantees a 1 month Home resort advantage. If DVC wanted to tinker with the booking windows, I believe it would be perfectly legal to give resale buyers the standard 11/7 month window while direct buyers get 11/10. All owners still have that one month priority (the 11th month) but direct buyers would suddenly gain access to non-Home properties much sooner.

Anyone who isn't able to plan right at 11 months would be impacted. The peak periods you mention would be problems, but you'd also have things like BWV BW and Standard View, BLT MK and Standard View and all of BCV available to non-owners much sooner year-round.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

If there is a direct vs. resale points change for dvc members, Disney would not have to grandfather current resales points owners. What would be gained by grandfathering? It would take years to see any benefits otherwise. I wouldn't hold your breath on the grandfathering assumption.

 

[tjkraz]

If there is a direct vs. resale points change for dvc members, Disney would not have to grandfather current resales points owners. What would be gained by grandfathering? It would take years to see any benefits otherwise. I wouldn't hold your breath on the grandfathering assumption.

I can see both sides of it.

There would still be a great advantage to DVC if they grandfather. Every new customer would have to buy direct in order to get the benefits.

I could also see them going to a tiered system like Wyndham's where you get extra benefits at the 300/500/1000 (or similar) levels. Even if they grandfather a member with current holdings of 400 points, he needs to buy the next 100+ direct in order move up to the next level.

If they didn't grandfather, there would be a tangible loss of goodwill among current members. If you take a current member who has 1000+ points all purchased resale, he isn't likely to react by running out and buying another 1000 direct. DVC only stands to lose by alienating those folks.

The grandfathering would also put many members in a position where they are within spitting distance of moving up in the system with a small direct purchase. Again, take my example of the person who owns 400 resale points today. A VIP program may be enough to convince him to buy the next 100 direct. On the other hand, if DVC disallows the first 400 resale points, there is virtually zero chance that the member will decide to buy 300+ direct just to get into the program.

I'm not even certain that DVC can accurately track direct/resale going back 20 years. Even today, a member who buys an Old Key West contract via resale gets an ID card that states "Member Since 1992" (or whatever the original inception date was.) They may have no other choice than to grandfather existing members.