So disgusted, just heard Sean Goldman's Brazilian relatives plan to pursue more

[snarlingcoyote]

Does anyone remember the highly-publicized case of Elian Gonzales? His mother "abducted" him from Cuba and was drowned, along with many others, during an attempt to reach the US from Cuba on an overcrowded and unsafe boat. (I'm calling on my memory, here). Elian was rescued and claimed by the extended Cuban-American family of the mother. They showered him with love and provided him with amenities he'd never known. He seemed to be very happy! Then came the legal quest from Elian's Cuban biological father to get him back. This went on for months and months and months. Whatever court ruled that Elian should be given back to his biological father. Most Americans - including myself - were outraged that this boy should have to leave a family that loved him and provided so well for him! The scenes of this boy being torn from the arms of this loving family by authorities were repeated by the worldwide media for days. It really broke our hearts! What I'm saying is that these are two very similar cases, but the loyalties depend on the country. We didn't want Elian Gonzales to be re-united with his biological father, but we were all about Sean Goldman being re-united with his biological father! The "separation" scenes in both cases were media events. We cried and expressed sympathy for Elian's American family when this happened, but we immediately blamed Sean's Brazilian family for doing exactly the same thing! I'm just saying. I'm an American and love my country, but these two cases are very similar, with predictable countries' loyalties being expressed. I'm sure that most Brazilians had sympathy for Sean's Brazilian family, just as most Americans had sympathy for Elian's American family. We've have no formal relations with Cuba since 1962, and it is long overdue! We've had problems with Brazil's visa requirements, and we reciprocate in kind. We're still playing a "nanny nanny boo boo" game with both of these countries. I'm just saying.

I was glad when Elian went back to his father, personally. I thought the mother's family was entirely to blame for the heartache in that case and were acting very selfishly.

Don't make blanket statements, please!

 

[snarlingcoyote]

OTOH. . .

A decade or so ago, the family court judge in a particular area in Louisiana was infamous for always, always, always siding with the mother in custody disputes. He believed that the child was better off with the mother no matter what.

A man in this area at one of the shops (in the vernacular, this means a machine/industrial shop, not a storefront, btw) got divorced because his wife had become addicted to drugs and wouldn's seek help. They had a daughter together. Even though the mom was using, she was given sole custody. The daddy and his parents tried legally to get the little girl away from her mom, to no avail.

Mom started living with her dealer. Heavily using. Daughter was living in the house the drugs were being sold from.

And one day the guy didn't show up to work. He and his daughter were missing.

The daddy's parents were completely , or so they said.

There are some cases where one's moral obligation may run counter to the law.

I'm just sayin'. (Although I think Sean Goldman is FINALLY where he should be!)

 

[1957]

I don't necessarily think it will take him five years to adjust. It might be a few months or a year, but with therapy, he will bounce back fairly quickly.

Ya think? He speaks fluent Portuguese and broken English, and he's 10 years old. I think it's all about the "formative years". Therapy will help, but won't be the answer. Sean will need to actually live] in the US for a number of years before he's fully acclimated.

 

[1957]

I was glad when Elian went back to his father, personally. I thought the mother's family was entirely to blame for the heartache in that case and were acting very selfishly.

Don't make blanket statements, please!

Sorry, but don't think I made a "blanket" statement at all! I was comparing two very similar situations, and just pointing out the national loyalties in each situation.

 

[Wall-E1]

Ya think? He speaks fluent Portuguese and broken English, and he's 10 years old. I think it's all about the "formative years". Therapy will help, but won't be the answer. Sean will need to actually live in the US for a number of years before he's fully acclimated.

Kids are resilient. I adopted my son when he was eight years old. He was in foster care for almost five years. It didn't take him five additional years to adjust and he went through more trauma than Sean. There were some rough patches at the beginning, but he adjusted fairly quickly. Stability and love are powerful things. When kids see that they have this, they feel more comfortable and come around. As to the language barrier, it will come back very quickly. He did speak English before the abduction and kids are able to pick up things like this quicker than adults.

 

[1957]

OTOH. . .

A decade or so ago, the family court judge in a particular area in Louisiana was infamous for always, always, always siding with the mother in custody disputes. He believed that the child was better off with the mother no matter what.

A man in this area at one of the shops (in the vernacular, this means a machine/industrial shop, not a storefront, btw) got divorced because his wife had become addicted to drugs and wouldn's seek help. They had a daughter together. Even though the mom was using, she was given sole custody. The daddy and his parents tried legally to get the little girl away from her mom, to no avail.

Mom started living with her dealer. Heavily using. Daughter was living in the house the drugs were being sold from.

And one day the guy didn't show up to work. He and his daughter were missing.

The daddy's parents were completely , or so they said.

There are some cases where one's moral obligation may run counter to the law.

I'm just sayin'. (Although I think Sean Goldman is FINALLY where he should be!)

And we think our country has good and moral custodial laws! Just watch the news.

 

[1957]

Kids are resilient. I adopted my son when he was eight years old. He was in foster care for almost five years. It didn't take him five additional years to adjust and he went through more trauma than Sean. There were some rough patches at the beginning, but he adjusted fairly quickly. Stability and love are powerful things. When kids see that they have this, they feel more comfortable and come around. As to the language barrier, it will come back very quickly. He did speak English before the abduction and kids are able to pick up things like this quicker than adults.

Good for you! I absolutely agree with the love and stability factors. The difference may be that your adopted son was already in the US and spoke English and was familiar with American ways. We are talking about two different continents, climates, cultures, and languages, though. So...that's why I said it could take an additional five years. Hopefully, it will not take that long. Kudos to you for adopting a foster child! We used to do "respite" weeks for disabled kids and adults who lived with their families.

BTW - I picked up German in no time at all, when I was four years old, during our four-year deployment there (1950-1954). I did take me some time, though, to drop the German in favor of full English upon our return to the US. It was the only time in my life that I was "bi-lingual"!

 

[PrincessMomto2]

Does anyone remember the highly-publicized case of Elian Gonzales? His mother "abducted" him from Cuba and was drowned, along with many others, during an attempt to reach the US from Cuba on an overcrowded and unsafe boat. (I'm calling on my memory, here). Elian was rescued and claimed by the extended Cuban-American family of the mother. They showered him with love and provided him with amenities he'd never known. He seemed to be very happy! Then came the legal quest from Elian's Cuban biological father to get him back. This went on for months and months and months. Whatever court ruled that Elian should be given back to his biological father. Most Americans - including myself - were outraged that this boy should have to leave a family that loved him and provided so well for him! The scenes of this boy being torn from the arms of this loving family by authorities were repeated by the worldwide media for days. It really broke our hearts! What I'm saying is that these are two very similar cases, but the loyalties depend on the country. We didn't want Elian Gonzales to be re-united with his biological father, but we were all about Sean Goldman being re-united with his biological father! The "separation" scenes in both cases were media events. We cried and expressed sympathy for Elian's American family when this happened, but we immediately blamed Sean's Brazilian family for doing exactly the same thing! I'm just saying. I'm an American and love my country, but these two cases are very similar, with predictable countries' loyalties being expressed. I'm sure that most Brazilians had sympathy for Sean's Brazilian family, just as most Americans had sympathy for Elian's American family. We've have no formal relations with Cuba since 1962, and it is long overdue! We've had problems with Brazil's visa requirements, and we reciprocate in kind. We're still playing a "nanny nanny boo boo" game with both of these countries. I'm just saying.

One big difference here. The US followed the rule of law. The Hague Treaty and returned Elian in less than 2 months. On the other hand.... Brazil took FIVE YEARS to do it. That is a lot of time lost between father and son. I am proud that my country did the right thing.

 

[Wall-E1]

Good for you! I absolutely agree with the love and stability factors. The difference may be that your adopted son was already in the US and spoke English and was familiar with American ways. We are talking about two different continents, climates, cultures, and languages, though. So...that's why I said it could take an additional five years. Hopefully, it will not take that long. Kudos to you for adopting a foster child! We used to do "respite" weeks for disabled kids and adults who lived with their families.

Thank you. And that is commendable work that you do. It really takes a special kind of person to open their homes to disabled kids like you do.

As to the "familiar with American ways" comment - no. He seemed to be more familiar with the ways of the Jungle Book. It was always a surprise as to how he would embarrass me out in public each day with his lack of social morals and manners. Thankfully he has improved due to the daily beatings that I have been administering behind the woodshed.

 

[PrincessMomto2]

I have some compassion for them. This is their grandson. They may never see him again. Would you ignore your dead daughter's wishes and turn your grandchild over to his father if she had gone to such lengths to 'protect' him?
It would take a lot to convince me that my child had lied about the welfare of her child. Just sayin'

I have been following this case for many years. This family are both liars and abductors. It is against the law to remove a child from his/her other parent. It is against the law to take them away illegally to another country. Do you feel sorry for David for losing 5 years of his son's life? The mother was selfish. She was a spoiled rich kid who did not like the fact of working in this country. If your relationship is over that is fine but you can not just up and leave and kidnap a child from his/her other parent. This so called family paraded this poor kid through a media blitz to make a point even though the consulate offered a more private entrance. David has been more than morally strong and has promised not to do to them what they did to him for 5 years. Denying him access to see his son. The Hague treaty which has been signed by both countries specifies that a child needs to be returned to his country of origin and that custody needs to be settled in the country of origin which is the US in this case. I don't feel any remorse for this family in Brazil. This has been a crime for many years and finally it has come to the right conclusion. I hope that David and Sean can now finally move on and have their lives back to normal.

 

[PrincessMomto2]

Ya think? He speaks fluent Portuguese and broken English, and he's 10 years old. I think it's all about the "formative years". Therapy will help, but won't be the answer. Sean will need to actually live] in the US for a number of years before he's fully acclimated.

Sean speaks English. It was his first language. He also went to an American school in Brazil for the first two years. So he will adjust just fine. Besides he has a family who loves him and who will do anything to make sure he adjusts quickly. I agree with the previous poster he will adjust.

 

[1957]

Thank you. And that is commendable work that you do. It really takes a special kind of person to open their homes to disabled kids like you do.

As to the "familiar with American ways" comment - no. He seemed to be more familiar with the ways of the Jungle Book. It was always a surprise as to how he would embarrass me out in public each day with his lack of social morals and manners. Thankfully he has improved due to the daily beatings that I have been administering behind the woodshed.

Huh? Thought this was a serious thread. What I said is true. Retired after 25 years teaching in public schools, and then three years teaching DD kids aged 14-21. Achieve School, Palo Alto, CA. Then worked for State MI/MH agency with adults, which is where I did respite care. Your reply was really snarky and uncalled for. !

 

[Wall-E1]

Huh? Thought this was a serious thread. What I said is true. Retired after 25 years teaching in public schools, and then three years teaching DD kids aged 14-21. Achieve School, Palo Alto, CA. Then worked for State MI/MH agency with adults, which is where I did respite care. Your reply was really snarky and uncalled for. !

Um, what are you talking about? I was paying you a compliment. I was sincere and believe everything you said.

I was joking about my son's "unmannered behavior" when I first adopted him. That was all.

I think you read my post wrong, somehow.

 

[1957]

Sean speaks English. It was his first language. He also went to an American school in Brazil for the first two years. So he will adjust just fine. Besides he has a family who loves him and who will do anything to make sure he adjusts quickly. I agree with the previous poster he will adjust.

Sean speaks broken English and full Portuguese, which is now his first language. Watch any of the latest broadcasts of the reunion. Even the news mods say this. I spoke English only at age four when I moved to Germany (Sean was five when he went to Brazil). I spoke fluent German just by living there, even though I went to the American school for four years. Of course he will adjust! It just won't be tomorrow. My family allowed me a lot of time to adjust being back in the US. Left before Kdg, returned in 3rd grade. It took a long time. It will also take a long time for Sean to adjust.

 

[1957]

Um, what are you talking about? I was paying you a compliment. I was sincere and believe everything you said.

I was joking about my son's "unmannered behavior" when I first adopted him. That was all.

I think you read my post wrong, somehow.

Yeah, maybe I did read your post wrong. I think. I just had a problem with your references to the woodshed thing. Spent too many years working with abused DD kids/adults, and didn't think it was funny. I now do in-home respite care (as a volunteer) at assisted-living facilities. Sorry - still think your reply was inappropriate.

 

[Wall-E1]

Yeah, maybe I did read your post wrong. I think. I just had a problem with your references to the woodshed thing. Spent too many years working with abused DD kids/adults, and didn't think it was funny. I now do in-home respite care (as a volunteer) at assisted-living facilities. Sorry - still think your reply was inappropriate.

My kid was abused. He thinks it's funny. I tell him all the time that I am going to Home Depot and buying lumber, then coming home and building a woodshed, so I will have somewhere that I can take him behind. That joke never gets old with him. Sorry you took it the wrong way. You truly seem like a generous and caring person with the work you do for the disabled.

 

[moon]

Does anyone remember the highly-publicized case of Elian Gonzales? His mother "abducted" him from Cuba and was drowned, along with many others, during an attempt to reach the US from Cuba on an overcrowded and unsafe boat. (I'm calling on my memory, here). Elian was rescued and claimed by the extended Cuban-American family of the mother. They showered him with love and provided him with amenities he'd never known. He seemed to be very happy! Then came the legal quest from Elian's Cuban biological father to get him back. This went on for months and months and months. Whatever court ruled that Elian should be given back to his biological father. Most Americans - including myself - were outraged that this boy should have to leave a family that loved him and provided so well for him! The scenes of this boy being torn from the arms of this loving family by authorities were repeated by the worldwide media for days. It really broke our hearts! What I'm saying is that these are two very similar cases, but the loyalties depend on the country. We didn't want Elian Gonzales to be re-united with his biological father, but we were all about Sean Goldman being re-united with his biological father! The "separation" scenes in both cases were media events. We cried and expressed sympathy for Elian's American family when this happened, but we immediately blamed Sean's Brazilian family for doing exactly the same thing! I'm just saying. I'm an American and love my country, but these two cases are very similar, with predictable countries' loyalties being expressed. I'm sure that most Brazilians had sympathy for Sean's Brazilian family, just as most Americans had sympathy for Elian's American family. We've have no formal relations with Cuba since 1962, and it is long overdue! We've had problems with Brazil's visa requirements, and we reciprocate in kind. We're still playing a "nanny nanny boo boo" game with both of these countries. I'm just saying.

Actually, the Cuban-American family with whom Elian lived while he was in the US was related to his father, not his mother. She took him without telling the father, who had custody (Elian only spent weekends with his mother), so in fact, she did abduct him.

Elian had lived with his father for five years, and lived with the Miami family for just five months, because they refused to send him back to his dad. Regardless of whether they showered him with love or not, what right did they had to kept him away from his father? No one I knew had sympathy for the Miami relatives, who paraded Elian to the media on a daily basis.

I feel the same towards Sean and his dad, even though the case isn't as clear-cut as Elian's case, being that the family who wanted to tear him away from his dad were distant relatives, who barely knew him when they took him home.

 

[1957]

I have been following this case for many years. This family are both liars and abductors. It is against the law to remove a child from his/her other parent. It is against the law to take them away illegally to another country. Do you feel sorry for David for losing 5 years of his son's life? The mother was selfish. She was a spoiled rich kid who did not like the fact of working in this country. If your relationship is over that is fine but you can not just up and leave and kidnap a child from his/her other parent. This so called family paraded this poor kid through a media blitz to make a point even though the consulate offered a more private entrance. David has been more than morally strong and has promised not to do to them what they did to him for 5 years. Denying him access to see his son. The Hague treaty which has been signed by both countries specifies that a child needs to be returned to his country of origin and that custody needs to be settled in the country of origin which is the US in this case. I don't feel any remorse for this family in Brazil. This has been a crime for many years and finally it has come to the right conclusion. I hope that David and Sean can now finally move on and have their lives back to normal.

Wow. (I think) Didn't the so-called American family of Elian Gonzales do exactly the same thing by "parading him through a media blitz to make a point"? Pretty sure they did. What "crime" did Brazil commit? Did Japan sign this Hague treaty? What, exactly, is the "Hague Treaty" you speak of? When did the US and Brazil sign this treaty? In your own words, please....no links. Thanks.

 

[Mickey's Minion]

What "crime" did Brazil commit? Did Japan sign this Hague treaty? What, exactly, is the "Hague Treaty" you speak of? When did the US and Brazil sign this treaty? In your own words, please....no links. Thanks.

I am not Princessmomto2, but here is a quick synopsis:

Currently 78 countries are members of The Hague Convention. The Hague Convention covers many different aspects of International Law.

One section deals with child adoption, custody and child abduction. Brazil and the US are both signers for the child custody/abduction section. Japan has yet to sign, however they have issued a statement saying they will sign in 2010.


The purpose of the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction (the Hague Treaty) is to protect children from the harmful effects of international parental abduction by establishing procedures to ensure the prompt return of the children to their home country. Currently, when a child is taken internationally in violation of one parent’s custodial rights, the left-behind parent files an application under the Hague Treaty for the return of or access to his or her child.

By signing the treaty, the countries pledge to uphold the laws as defined by the treaty.

In Sean's case, Brazil failed to follow international law as set by the Hague treaty.

I know you said no links, but here is the Hague Treaty:
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=states.listing

and specifically the Child Abduction section:
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act...display&tid=21

 

[1957]

Actually, the Cuban-American family with whom Elian lived while he was in the US was related to his father, not his mother. She took him without telling the father, who had custody (Elian only spent weekends with his mother), so in fact, she did abduct him.

Elian had lived with his father for five years, and lived with the Miami family for just five months, because they refused to send him back to his dad. Regardless of whether they showered him with love or not, what right did they had to kept him away from his father? No one I knew had sympathy for the Miami relatives, who paraded Elian to the media on a daily basis.

I feel the same towards Sean and his dad, even though the case isn't as clear-cut as Elian's case, being that the family who wanted to tear him away from his dad were distant relatives, who barely knew him when they took him home.

What you say about Elian makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate it! I just got caught up in the whole "Keep Elian in the US" hysteria. Like I said, I grew up during the anti-communist Cold War era, and despite my 180 change, there was, perhaps, still that element. I posted this (look waaaay back) just to say that the two cases were very similar, and can't understand why "we" thought it was OK to keep Elian from his Cuban Dad, but boo'd Brazil for keeping Sean from his American Dad. I agree - five months does not equal five years. Brazil makes it very difficult for Americans to visit (!@#$%&* visa), but the US does the same thing for Brazilians to visit the US! Judge Judy would take care of this "nanny nanny boo boo" BS in about five minutes! Brazil is hosting the 2016 Summer Olympics, despite the slums and drugs, which will either be cleaned up or hidden from the public cameras. Brazil needs to catch up with this century! The US has had no formal relations with Cuba since 1962. 1962?? Forty seven years? WTH? My Canadian friends are allowed to enjoy beautiful resorts and beaches. There haven't been Soviet missiles in Cuba since 1962. There hasn't even been a Soviet Union since Reagan! Why is the US not opening Cuba to Americans? Not taking any side of the political fence, but geez, America! Sometimes we should make the first move. Just sayin'