So disgusted, just heard Sean Goldman's Brazilian relatives plan to pursue more

[1957]

I am not Princessmomto2, but here is a quick synopsis:

Currently 78 countries are members of The Hague Convention. The Hague Convention covers many different aspects of International Law.

One section deals with child adoption, custody and child abduction. Brazil and the US are both signers for the child custody/abduction section. Japan has yet to sign, however they have issued a statement saying they will sign in 2010.


The purpose of the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction (the Hague Treaty) is to protect children from the harmful effects of international parental abduction by establishing procedures to ensure the prompt return of the children to their home country. Currently, when a child is taken internationally in violation of one parent’s custodial rights, the left-behind parent files an application under the Hague Treaty for the return of or access to his or her child.

By signing the treaty, the countries pledge to uphold the laws as defined by the treaty.

In Sean's case, Brazil failed to follow international law as set by the Hague treaty.

I know you said no links, but here is the Hague Treaty:
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=states.listing

and specifically the Child Abduction section:
http://www.hcch.net/index_en.php?act=text.display&tid=21

Thanks so much, Mickey's Minion! I do appreciate your post! Brazil definitely has some problems, not just for this case (Sean's step-father is a ..gasp...attorney!), but the fact that Brazil is hosting the 2016 Summer Olympics (and the fact that the US threatened to deny Brazil a lucrative trade deal....citing my poor memory here).....Brazil has got some 'splainin' to do. Wonder what the US based (but not flagged) cruise lines are going to do about positioning their ships in Rio in 2016. Now...IMO, the US should end the 47-year old dissing of Cuba. It's no longer about communism! Glad to hear that Japan (hopefully) will sign the Hague treaty to help the US father whose kids were abducted by their Japanese mother. Not so sure, though, due to economic codependence. Yes...I have a Honda.

Going to bed now. Rescue doggie has to be at the vet tomorrow for bath and grooming by 8 am.

Thanks to all who have replied to my post, including those who disagree eith me!

 

[1957]

They should only be allowed supervised visits if they come to the U.S., if any at all. After seeing that publicity stunt that they pulled in the child's handover, I can't find the words to express my disgust with those people.

Elian Gonzales' American family did exactly the same handover publicity stunt. Pretty disgusting, huh!

 

[Wall-E1]

Elian Gonzales' American family did exactly the same handover publicity stunt. Pretty disgusting, huh!

I agree. I hate when these cases pop up and the extended family members try to use the media for their own twisted purposes. I don't understand how these cases sometimes are allowed to drag on for so long. If the child has a responsible living mother or father - that is who they should be with.

 

[1957]

I agree. I hate when these cases pop up and the extended family members try to use the media for their own twisted purposes. I don't understand how these cases sometimes are allowed to drag on for so long. If the child has a responsible living mother or father - that is who they should be with.

You were the second poster to "villainize" Sean Goldman's Brazilian family. You are now doing the same thing re: Elian Gonzales' American family. Make up your mind. After you've finished your homework.

 

[terri01p]

Just curious and really haven't seen the answer, has the boy said where he would like to live ????????

 

[Wall-E1]

You were the second poster to "villainize" Sean Goldman's Brazilian family. You are now doing the same thing re: Elian Gonzales' American family. Make up your mind. After you've finished your homework.

Is this a practical joke? What is going on here? First you blow up over a compliment that I pay you. Now, you are upset that I agreed with you about Elian Gonzalez' American family.

Sean Goldman's Brazilian family and Elian Gonzalez' American family were both extended family. In both cases, these children had living father's that were fighting to regain custody of their children. So yes, I did "villainize" both Sean Goldman's Brazilian family and Elian Gonzalez' American family because both of these families were keeping a child from their natural father and it was wrong of these families to do in both cases.

Perhaps you should of gone to bed like you said you were going to do a few posts ago. You seem to be getting a bit confused.

 

[dodukes]

Just curious and really haven't seen the answer, has the boy said where he would like to live ????????

I think he is suposedly too young to decide. And besides, they have brainwashed him for 5 years, cant really ask him.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Elian Gonzales' American family did exactly the same handover publicity stunt. Pretty disgusting, huh!

Actually--they did not do anything with a handover as they had no opportunity to.

They had a lifestyle publicity stunt--but as far as a handover, Janet Reno had Elian taken b/c this family was so uncooperative.

The family did their little stunt by flying up to and driving to the base and expected to get on. Of course they were turned away and were "shocked' that they could not see him. But they had no right to him. They felt their rights were violated, but in turn they had violated Elian's right to be with his father. In 5 months they tried to demonstrate that he preferred living with them, but they were basing that on their own biases of a Fidel Castro Cuba. They then of course spent 5 months letting Elian do anything and everything that is impossible to do in Cuba.

Who knows what Sean's mom told her family. But I'm sure his wealthy family did something similar--showering him with all the things that his American Father could never be able to do.

It seems both families attempted to bribe a child to win favor.

Of course right after he was taken, they took immediately to the ariwaves to pledge their case.

But "we" as a country never took the stance that Brazil did with Sean. Our country never thought it was okay. They gave it some due process. But our country quickly realized that this family had no right to Elian probably due to all that stuff Mickey's Minion posted above. All that infomration makes it all that much more "sense" of why the US handled Elian as they did.

I believe Brazil was giving the Brazilian family more chance to prove their case than really the family ever was entitled and there may be some that argue that is the way it should be done.

But bottom line, mom kidnapped kid, mom died, family had no rights to child.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Just curious and really haven't seen the answer, has the boy said where he would like to live ????????

It has never been said publicly, but his Brazilian family has claimed that he would state he prefers to live in Brazil.

Since that is all he has known since the age of 4 or 5 and he is very well off in that country, it is no doubt that at age 9, he came to that conclusion. I seroiusly doubt that his family ever told the truth that he was abducted. But they spent several years telling him that his dad is trying to "take him" back away from them and then spin the story to paint his dad as an evil monster.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Thanks so much, Mickey's Minion! I do appreciate your post! Brazil definitely has some problems, not just for this case (Sean's step-father is a ..gasp...attorney!), but the fact that Brazil is hosting the 2016 Summer Olympics (and the fact that the US threatened to deny Brazil a lucrative trade deal....citing my poor memory here).....Brazil has got some 'splainin' to do. Wonder what the US based (but not flagged) cruise lines are going to do about positioning their ships in Rio in 2016. Now...IMO, the US should end the 47-year old dissing of Cuba. It's no longer about communism! Glad to hear that Japan (hopefully) will sign the Hague treaty to help the US father whose kids were abducted by their Japanese mother. Not so sure, though, due to economic codependence. Yes...I have a Honda.

Going to bed now. Rescue doggie has to be at the vet tomorrow for bath and grooming by 8 am.

Thanks to all who have replied to my post, including those who disagree eith me!

Not sure what they could do to Brazil. In the end, the Supreme Court got him to come home. However, the family opted to do no more fighting so the Brazilian high court can't get the full credit.

As for Cuba--I concur as do many.

 

[CapeMayMommy]

Just curious and really haven't seen the answer, has the boy said where he would like to live ????????

That is not a fair question. He has been living in Brazil for over 5 years. It's the country he is currently most comfortable living in at this point.

However, you can't lose sight of the fact that he was kidnapped.

I think that , in most cases, Americans were sympathetic to Elian Gonzalez's father

and Brazilians are sympathetic to David Goldman. You can't let "national loyalties" stand in the way of what is really right.

Sean Goldman's wealthy Brazilian family created more psychological damage for this child having this drag on.

They thought their wealth would trump international law.

 

[PrincessMomto2]

Sean speaks broken English and full Portuguese, which is now his first language. Watch any of the latest broadcasts of the reunion. Even the news mods say this. I spoke English only at age four when I moved to Germany (Sean was five when he went to Brazil). I spoke fluent German just by living there, even though I went to the American school for four years. Of course he will adjust! It just won't be tomorrow. My family allowed me a lot of time to adjust being back in the US. Left before Kdg, returned in 3rd grade. It took a long time. It will also take a long time for Sean to adjust.

Sean speaks good enough English to converse with his cousins and other family members. This was discussed today by his dad on during a tv interview. It was his native language until he was 4 years old and like I previously said until he was 6 was his primary language in school. No one knows how long it will take to adjust. But then again how long did it take him to adjust when he was kidnapped by his mother? How long did he have to adjust to not being with is dad in another country. The good news is that he is where he belongs with his father. Every situation is different every child is different.

 

[PrincessMomto2]

Wow. (I think) Didn't the so-called American family of Elian Gonzales do exactly the same thing by "parading him through a media blitz to make a point"? Pretty sure they did. What "crime" did Brazil commit? Did Japan sign this Hague treaty? What, exactly, is the "Hague Treaty" you speak of? When did the US and Brazil sign this treaty? In your own words, please....no links. Thanks.

Yes they were also so very wrong as well!

I see that Mickey's Minion has answered your other question extremely well.

 

[ols386]

That is not a fair question. He has been living in Brazil for over 5 years. It's the country he is currently most comfortable living in at this point.

However, you can't lose sight of the fact that he was kidnapped.

I think that , in most cases, Americans were sympathetic to Elian Gonzalez's father

and Brazilians are sympathetic to David Goldman. You can't let "national loyalties" stand in the way of what is really right.

Sean Goldman's wealthy Brazilian family created more psychological damage for this child having this drag on.

They thought their wealth would trump international law.

I think it's a fair question, but I still believe he belongs with his father, not with the Brazilian side of his family. David is his father, and Sean's mother is deceased.

I sometimes wonder if Sean's mother were still alive, if David would have had any chance of getting his son back. Don't get me wrong, I certainly think his mother was wrong to basically kidnap Sean and take him to Brazil, and keep him from his father....not only wrong, but illegal. It's just something I had wondered about.

Sean's where he belongs now. I'm sure his father will do everything within his power to help his son adjust. I'm so glad they are together again.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

I don't believe that Sean's mother had any safety concerns, though. Surely if she did, she would have used them in court to strengthen her custody dispute. I believe that she was unhappy, wanted to return to her native country, and wanted her child with her.

Exactly. I don't understand people questioning if there was some sordid reason Sean's mother was keeping him from his father...that there MUST be some "reason". Yeah, there was. She wanted to be in Brazil, and she wanted her son with her. Period. She hooked up with a corrupt lawyer (her Brazilian husband) who was well versed in manipulating the Brazilian court system in custody cases.

Sean lived in Brazil for five years with a loving family. I'm saying it will take an equal amount of time for him to adjust to living in the US with an equally loving family.

?? Where are you pulling that out of? It didn't take him 5 years to adjust to Brazil.

Ya think? He speaks fluent Portuguese and broken English, and he's 10 years old. I think it's all about the "formative years". Therapy will help, but won't be the answer. Sean will need to actually live] in the US for a number of years before he's fully acclimated.

Again...a number of years? I think he'll adjust well, with the love and support of what appears to be a truly wonderful family. Just watching video of Sean and his father before he was kidnapped...David was a very involved and loving father.

Sorry, but don't think I made a "blanket" statement at all! I was comparing two very similar situations, and just pointing out the national loyalties in each situation.

Of course you did. This is like the definition of making a blanket statement:

Most Americans - including myself - were outraged that this boy should have to leave a family that loved him and provided so well for him! ...these are two very similar cases, but the loyalties depend on the country. We didn't want Elian Gonzales to be re-united with his biological father, but we were all about Sean Goldman being re-united with his biological father! The "separation" scenes in both cases were media events. We cried and expressed sympathy for Elian's American family when this happened, but we immediately blamed Sean's Brazilian family for doing exactly the same thing!

Absolutely not true. There was a HUGE amount of support for Elian's father, as well as David Goldman, even from Brazilians. In both case, the children were wrongly taken by their mothers; in both cases, they were held by "family" in another country; in both cases, they belonged with their fathers, and in both cases, there was tremendous support for reuniting them.

I don't feel any remorse for this family in Brazil. This has been a crime for many years and finally it has come to the right conclusion. I hope that David and Sean can now finally move on and have their lives back to normal.

No remorse for the Brazilian family from me either. They have NOT lost Sean...they will have visitation, because David Goldman...the better person...has said he will allow it. For FIVE YEARS, David Goldman lived with the possibility that he would NEVER see his son again. How horrific for a parent; I can't even imagine.

You were the second poster to "villainize" Sean Goldman's Brazilian family. You are now doing the same thing re: Elian Gonzales' American family. Make up your mind. After you've finished your homework.

??????????? I'm confused...are you saying they're mutually exclusive?? I don't get it. BOTH Sean Goldman's Brazilian "family" and Elian Gonzales' American "family" held the children hostage, refused to return them to their fathers, paraded the children in front of the media. Yeah...both "families" should be "villainized".

Just curious and really haven't seen the answer, has the boy said where he would like to live ????????

It's not his decision to make.

 

[Wall-E1]

??????????? I'm confused...are you saying they're mutually exclusive?? I don't get it. BOTH Sean Goldman's Brazilian "family" and Elian Gonzales' American "family" held the children hostage, refused to return them to their fathers, paraded the children in front of the media. Yeah...both "families" should be "villainized".

Thank you. For a minute there I was worried that I was crazy. Last night was one of the most bizarre exchanges I have ever had on these boards.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Thank you. For a minute there I was worried that I was crazy. Last night was one of the most bizarre exchanges I have ever had on these boards.

Did you calculate if it was, in fact, THE most bizarre exchange you've ever had on these boards?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I think it's a fair question, but I still believe he belongs with his father, not with the Brazilian side of his family. David is his father, and Sean's mother is deceased.

I sometimes wonder if Sean's mother were still alive, if David would have had any chance of getting his son back. Don't get me wrong, I certainly think his mother was wrong to basically kidnap Sean and take him to Brazil, and keep him from his father....not only wrong, but illegal. It's just something I had wondered about.

Sean's where he belongs now. I'm sure his father will do everything within his power to help his son adjust. I'm so glad they are together again.

Probably not as good of a chance, b/c his mother would be alive to fight it. Her death actually paved the way to justice. It seemed that during her fight--they got told numorous times by the court to return him and they would just appeal it and buy more time.

Same deal with Elian. Had his mother been alive, she could have offered her testimony. And it would have dragged far longer than it did. I suspect that given Cuba's history, that may have been an easier sell than what Sean's family did in Brazil. Otherwise, I'm sure there would have been much more public favor to not return him to his father.

Just like the "Not without my daughter" case--technically, she kidnapped her dd from Iran. However, she was alive and well and perfectly able to testify and justify her actions.

Elian's mother did not have this opportunity and we will never know her side b/c none of the relatives he ended up living with were on the boat with that woman. Their argument was "clearly this is what she wanted b/c she put him on the dinghy and risked her and his life"--but that wasn't enough to strip his father of his rights as survivor and parent of this boy. Plus, it is said she was the non-custodial parent anyway, so defense of her intent loses points if you will b/c she was not in the power to make such a decision.

 

[Sandy V.]

Thank you. For a minute there I was worried that I was crazy. Last night was one of the most bizarre exchanges I have ever had on these boards.

I agree with you, and I haven't even posted on this thread before. BTW, I agree with everything you and MaryAnnDVC said.

 

[Wall-E1]

Did you calculate if it was, in fact, THE most bizarre exchange you've ever had on these boards?

It's all very complicated and will take several days to accurately compute if this was in fact the most bizarre exchange ever on these boards. I have had to shut down the super computer several times, as it began smoking at the bizarreness of the calculations.