Should Students be required to perform "Community Service"?

[rwdavis2]

Absolutely not. My daughter's had to do it and it was a joke. "Service" should be voluntary and come from within not indentured servitude.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I am confused--is that in a German school or an American school? (wasn't sure if you were offering what was required internationally, or a counter to my homework comment, or what...)

Regardless...

1) These items can be peformed AT HOME? Then, it is just like any other homework--with that time element (that I have never come across growing up). I have heard of reading though--but that is a homework issue. And it can be manipulated.

2) No I do not have an issue as it is under the notion of HOMEwork. Now if they obligated you to sign your kid up for a dance class or a gym membership--I would have an issue as now that takes up additional time and funding outside of the home which public schools should not be attempting to control.

My reasons for my opinions--compulsory attendance and the right to an education.

This is not to be confused with my opinions on volunteering which have nothing to do with forced government compliance.

So, if there is some sort of volunteer work a student could do from home (edit boks for the Gutenberg project, or make phone calls for some organization, or knit blankets for preemies, or whatnot) THAT would be okay with you?

These were things required in the US (but lower grades). I did not try to compare Germany to the US which is why I did not post what is done here. Here, there is a national service requirement after graduation (I believe it is one year in the military or two of civil service).

Here, in 9th grade, my daughter had 4 Saturdays when her class was required to be at the school to help with fundraisers or building the new wing, 2 weeks in which they did not go to school but each child HAD to arrange an internship to do at that time. The child was responsible for contacting companies to, arranging the internship, bringing in paperwork, etc. I don't think anyone wanted the kids there only during school hours--most of the kids ended up missing their extra curricular during that time, a couple of parents had to find babysitters for the after school hours for their younger kids who were usually watched by the older siblings, etc. AND the entire class spent three weeks on individual farms in the spring (again missing everything going on at home like extra curriculars or jobs).

 

[jrmasm]

In high school, I had a class which required viewing the nightly news for 30 minutes every night for several weeks and then writing a summary (before internet news ).

In lower grades (sorry, my high school student is not in an American school so I cannot compare at that level for the here and now) my kids both had reading logs that required 20 minutes a night of reading to be signed off by a parent and both had exercise logs which required 30 minutes of physical exercise daily (again to be signed off by parents). Those are not things where the kids had say say in how quickly they got something done--the time limit was IT. Do you disagree with those types of requirements as well?

Exactly which subjects do you think fall into that? Do you feel art should be taught? DARE programs? Driver's Ed? Health? Music? Gym? Foreign Language? Theatre? Etc.


I never said it eliminated the possibility that you think volunteering is valuable and teaches great skills. What on Earth makes you think I said that? I simply was pointing out that you cannot force someone to volunteer as that is contrary to the very definition of the word.

Then I guess we're at the agree to disagree point because IMO, that is exactly what community service is according to your definition, forced volunteering.

Again-- the difference is whether is is required or not. It seems to me what you feel is total BS is requiring service hours. Me, I think that is valuable and teaches many great skills.

This statement is what made me think that you thought they were mutually exclusive.

 

[kamik86]

I knew someone would bring this arguement up, but its apples and oranges. All the things you mentioned are provided by the school, done during school hours, taught by the teachers who are paid by our taxes. Requiring students to "volunteer" on their own time is not even close to the same thing. The school is not providing education to those students when they force them to go out and do something on their own time, they are mandating what the student does in order to have more control over student's life outside of school. If they want to force students to volunteer, then the faculty and staff should be responsible for ALL aspects of that volunteer work, set up where the kids go, transport them during school hours, stay and supervise, etc.
Thankfully my district doesn't do this, and if they try I will fight it. If I fail, yes I will sign off on my kid's volunteer sheet so that they will graduate because as long as they have passing grades in their classes, thats good enough for me. There was a time when that was good enough for schools, and since we can't get into politics I won't comment on why I think that has changed.

So then would you be ok with what was done in my high school? In my high school students spent half there time in normal classes and opposite weeks in shop. Shop could be IT, business, carpentry, computer aided drafting, machine tech, metal fab, culinary, electricity, or automotive. Students choose after an exploratory freshman year.

Many of the shops did community service projects as class projects. For example carpentry built houses for habitat for humanity (because they need to learn to build a house so they might as well make one someone will live in) the school had a few vans to take people and materials to these sites The electricity students wired these houses. IT students would fix computers in both our school and sometimes for other groups. Electricity fixed the lighting outside a community church, rewired the local youth center, etc. Culinary did a community lunch every so often. They also had night catering events but I believe these were actually a teachers side business and they were paid for these (I know it was a volunteer thing to do though). Automotive fixed the school vehicles as well as some other community ones.

Are these acceptable to you? would you fight this? I don't think they really teach community involvement as much as the skills for the class, but they are during school time, most are well supervised (off site ones are, but sometimes fixing the schools computers or lights weren't as much as they just sent one student to another part of the building to do it). They were also part of your grade.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Absolutely not. My daughter's had to do it and it was a joke. "Service" should be voluntary and come from within not indentured servitude.

Then I guess we're at the agree to disagree point because IMO, that is exactly what community service is according to your definition, forced volunteering.




This statement is what made me think that you thought they were mutually exclusive.

it is forced service. You literally cannot force someone to volunteer since volunteering must be done of one's own free will I never said it was not forced--it IS, it simply is not volunteering (ie--defined as a person who performs a service WILLINGLY and without pay). I guess if you want to disagree about the definition of voluntary/volunteer that is fine--but I am just going by the standard one you find most anywhere

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/volunteer

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/volunteer

 

[jrmasm]

it is forced service. You literally cannot force someone to volunteer since volunteering must be done of one's own free will I never said it was not forced--it IS, it simply is not volunteering (ie--defined as a person who performs a service WILLINGLY and without pay). I guess if you want to disagree about the definition of voluntary/volunteer that is fine--but I am just going by the standard one you find most anywhere

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/volunteer

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/volunteer

Seriously? WTH difference does it make what it's called? The question as I understand the OP is should students be required to donate their time? I don't give a flying fig what you call it, my answer is no! Schools should not require students to donate their time as a requirement for graduation.

 

[jodifla]

I can sort of see both sides of this, but I don't see how it's any different than making you take a class on Civics or whatever.

One thing that does strike me as I read this is that they'll never be able to reimpose the Draft. I mean, it was only 40 years ago that they could send your sons off to get shot at! And here we complain about community service requirements.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Seriously? WTH difference does it make what it's called? The question as I understand the OP is should students be required to donate their time? I don't give a flying fig what you call it, my answer is no! Schools should not require students to donate their time as a requirement for graduation.

Well, early in teh thread lots of people were saying it should not be required because volunteering was supposed to be something you want to do-thus I pointed out that what is being required should not be thought of as vlonuteering (which does imply desire to help) but looked at as a required community service (which is how most districts would define it I think). Did you see all of those early posts? Had a bunch of posters not said, repeatedly, that it was a bad idea simply because that is not what volunteering is supposed to be, I would not have felt like I needed to point out that it is not really volunteering--but that it IS a service requirenment (which you can agree with or disagree with but do not disagree jsut because hta is not "volnuteering" since that is not what is being required in the first place) that I feel is okay.

 

[luvmy3]

So then would you be ok with what was done in my high school? In my high school students spent half there time in normal classes and opposite weeks in shop. Shop could be IT, business, carpentry, computer aided drafting, machine tech, metal fab, culinary, electricity, or automotive. Students choose after an exploratory freshman year.

Many of the shops did community service projects as class projects. For example carpentry built houses for habitat for humanity (because they need to learn to build a house so they might as well make one someone will live in) the school had a few vans to take people and materials to these sites The electricity students wired these houses. IT students would fix computers in both our school and sometimes for other groups. Electricity fixed the lighting outside a community church, rewired the local youth center, etc. Culinary did a community lunch every so often. They also had night catering events but I believe these were actually a teachers side business and they were paid for these (I know it was a volunteer thing to do though). Automotive fixed the school vehicles as well as some other community ones.

Are these acceptable to you? would you fight this? I don't think they really teach community involvement as much as the skills for the class, but they are during school time, most are well supervised (off site ones are, but sometimes fixing the schools computers or lights weren't as much as they just sent one student to another part of the building to do it). They were also part of your grade.

Yes, those things are acceptable because the service was part of the required class, the "service" itself wasn't what is being required. What you describe is not the same as forcing a student to find acceptable volunteer work outside of school hours in order to graduate.

ETA I don't believe its the job of the school to force "community involvement", that is the job of the parents. If I want my kid to be involved in (insert any charity) then thats my decision. The school's job is to make sure students are meeting the academic requirements for graduation. The problem is they aren't, so they make up these new requirements so that they can feel like they are doing something for the students. "see look what we have done, John Doe knows the value of community service now, even if he doesn't know physics or algerbra".

 

[jrmasm]

Well, early in teh thread lots of people were saying it should not be required because volunteering was supposed to be something you want to do-thus I pointed out that what is being required should not be thought of as vlonuteering (which does imply desire to help) but looked at as a required community service (which is how most districts would define it I think). Did you see all of those early posts? Had a bunch of posters not said, repeatedly, that it was a bad idea simply because that is not what volunteering is supposed to be, I would not have felt like I needed to point out that it is not really volunteering--but that it IS a service requirenment (which you can agree with or disagree with but do not disagree jsut because hta is not "volnuteering" since that is not what is being required in the first place) that I feel is okay.

But again what difference does it make?

Let's recap: you are ok with a community service requirement for graduation. I am not. I (and lots of othes) see it as forced volunteering which makes you laugh hysterically because that is simply impossible according to definition.

And short version is you = yes, me = no.


Done. Let's move on.

 

[Pigeon]

An important citizenship in the US is the right to get involved or not get involved with organizations as you choose. While participating in civil society is often beneficial, I am glad it is not an obligation. Forcing students do volunteer involuntarily, or whatever euphemism you want to apply, is completely contrary to this freedom in my book. It teaches them the wrong lesson, if in fact, it teaches them anything at all.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So, if there is some sort of volunteer work a student could do from home (edit boks for the Gutenberg project, or make phone calls for some organization, or knit blankets for preemies, or whatnot) THAT would be okay with you?

These were things required in the US (but lower grades). I did not try to compare Germany to the US which is why I did not post what is done here. Here, there is a national service requirement after graduation (I believe it is one year in the military or two of civil service).

Here, in 9th grade, my daughter had 4 Saturdays when her class was required to be at the school to help with fundraisers or building the new wing, 2 weeks in which they did not go to school but each child HAD to arrange an internship to do at that time. The child was responsible for contacting companies to, arranging the internship, bringing in paperwork, etc. I don't think anyone wanted the kids there only during school hours--most of the kids ended up missing their extra curricular during that time, a couple of parents had to find babysitters for the after school hours for their younger kids who were usually watched by the older siblings, etc. AND the entire class spent three weeks on individual farms in the spring (again missing everything going on at home like extra curriculars or jobs).

I didn't say that.

In fact, I was merely talking homework and it was okay because it was done at home as homework. Something I have not come across in my experience. It is also EASILY manipulated. Parents lie on absentee notes, the honor system with "timed requirements"--doesn't really mean much.

I am not okay with the forced required hours for community service. Especially since in many communities it bans specific types of services that do very well at serving communities.


Your recent post is more indicative in what I was seeking as a comparison for an international school. All very interesting.

 

[NotUrsula]

I can sort of see both sides of this, but I don't see how it's any different than making you take a class on Civics or whatever.

One thing that does strike me as I read this is that they'll never be able to reimpose the Draft. I mean, it was only 40 years ago that they could send your sons off to get shot at! And here we complain about community service requirements.

One could argue that the draft was different, in that yes, young men were forced to serve, but they were paid for the service, AND all resources needed to get them there, get them fed and clothed, and medical care and housing were provided as well.

FTR, I don't mind that there is a service requirement, but depending on how it is set up, it can have some downsides, both for the student and the organization "benefiting" from the service; although AFAIK, no organization other than local governments can be forced to accept such "service" assignees. (BTDT that with court-ordered workers -- NOT pleasant.)

I think that the problem today is a bit of an age/transit-opportunity disconnect that means that in practical terms, in many communities the service is not only required of the child but of his/her parents as well. I just helped DS arrange for his freshman service, and the place that agreed to take him on is not located near any sort of public transportation. This means that either I or my DH must rearrange our schedules to make his community service possible, because we have to get him there. A number of places that we contacted refused to accept service from someone under 16 unless a parent came along and served alongside him -- that's not often workable for our family because of our work schedules and our need for childcare for his young sibling (besides that, I really think that he should be independent once he arrives on the site; school activities should not require the presence of a hand-holding parent.)

So, I suppose that when those sorts of obstacles are present, I favor the school being required to review "alternate service schedule" propositions in situations where the family can show undue hardship. One possibility would be letting a kid do all of the required service in the final two years rather than spreading it over four, if being old enough to drive would effectively eliminate the hardship claim.

PS: I thing that the whole volunteering vs. service question hinges on what you mean by "volunteer". I think that most people who object to "mandatory volunteer work" define volunteer as "unpaid", while NH is obviously defining it as "willingly undertaken" (as in a military member "volunteering" for an extraordinarily dangerous mission -- he chooses to do it. Of course, in that case, he still gets paid for doing it. )

 

[TDC Nala]

I don't think they should HAVE to do anything but schoolwork to graduate, but I get the mindset behind requiring it. But I also agree that if it is required, it is not "volunteerism."

 

[Baileymouse]

In my small city, it's a requirement for graduation. They call it service learning, and never once call it volunteer. They want the kids to learn that they have to give back to the community in some way, since the community paid for their education.

I don't see anything wrong with it. I can see why some would object, and it is sometimes a pain for the kids to get something they can do. In my area transportation isn't an issue since there's so much public transit.

Many of the kids volunteer at the library. Some work at the senior center. Others paint park benches over the summer. The time requirement isn't huge.

 

[bicker]

If we can require students to give thier time to teach them the value of volunteering, would it also be acceptable to require students to give thier money to teach them the value of donation?

We already require students to give their time to teach them English, and to apply physical education. Why haven't you been worried about this money issue previously?

 

[bicker]

All the things you mentioned are provided by the school, done during school hours

So what you're saying is that the school should provide the opportunities to work in a community setting, and that the community service should take place during school hours.

taught by the teachers who are paid by our taxes.

I'm not sure how getting some of the cost of instruction covered by the community instead of coming out of my taxes is a bad thing.

Requiring students to "volunteer"

That has already been shown to be a red-herring. No one would be required to volunteer. Students would be required to perform community service - not volunteer.

on their own time

Their own time is time not spent on required activities. Students taking chorus, band, drama, etc. - for credit - are often absolutely required to attend evening recitals and performances. There is long and strong precedent.

If they want to force students to volunteer, then the faculty and staff should be responsible for ALL aspects of that volunteer work, set up where the kids go, transport them during school hours, stay and supervise, etc.

All community service should indeed be supervised by someone vetted by the district based on a number of criteria, not the least of which is the ability to supervise an instructional undertaking.

 

[bicker]

An important citizenship in the US is the right to get involved or not get involved with organizations as you choose.

A decision for which, in later life, education is to provide a context. Same with the history curriculum: Everyone has a right to, after graduating from high school, deciding that they don't agree with what they were taught, and/or don't want to delve deeper into the topic.

 

[Pigeon]

We already require students to give their time to teach them English, and to apply physical education. Why haven't you been worried about this money issue previously?

English and physical education have been part of the traditional educational curriculum for at least 40 years.

Community organizations can be supported in a variety of ways. Some can use volunteers (and yes, I'm going to continue to use that word) and find them valuable. They can almost always also use money. Sometimes money is way more important and useful to them than having extra bodies.

If the goal of this requirement is for students to be forced to become aware of the importance of supporting civic organizations, writing a check is just as valid a way to support the organizations as is spending hours at them.

 

[bicker]

English and physical education have been part of the traditional educational curriculum for at least 40 years.

Computer Science wasn't. (And actually, 40 years ago, Civics was.)

Community organizations can be supported in a variety of ways.

This isn't about supporting community organizations. This is about teaching good citizenship.

If the goal of this requirement is for students to be forced to become aware of the importance of supporting civic organizations, writing a check is just as valid a way to support the organizations as is spending hours at them.

There is no way writing a check to a community organization is going to teach students much of anything about civic responsibility. An appreciation for a parent spending money, like that, comes much later - unless you mean to impose a requirement that the student earn the money and then be forced to donate it. If so, I think you're going in the wrong direction - far more people will vociferously object to that.