Should Students be required to perform "Community Service"?

[bicker]

I could agree with that as long as it wasn't a required course.

That would undercut the value of the proposition. The reason why it needs to be required is because it is responding to a defined lack in the young people we're graduating into our society. There is something identifiable and identified missing from their formative process. The only way to fix something that is broken is to fix it, not think about fixing it and then turning around and applying incomplete measures instead.

Beyond that, you didn't provide any substantive explanation why you feel that young people and society wouldn't benefit from a civics requirement for graduation. What is the harm that comes from our society expressing to its youth reasonable expectations for contribution to and participation in society?

Or is your objection solely that some students would be "allowed to" satisfy that requirement through community service instead of the in-classroom civics course - that you object to any students having that more hand-on, experiential opportunity to learn, and rather, instead, all students should be forced to gain that understanding through the classroom experience?

 

[declansdad]

That would undercut the value of the proposition. The reason why it needs to be required is because it is responding to a defined lack in the young people we're graduating into our society. There is something identifiable and identified missing from their formative process. The only way to fix something that is broken is to fix it, not think about fixing it and then turning around and applying incomplete measures instead.

Beyond that, you didn't provide any substantive explanation why you feel that young people and society wouldn't benefit from a civics requirement for graduation. What is the harm that comes from our society expressing to its youth reasonable expectations for contribution to and participation in society?

Or is your objection solely that some students would be "allowed to" satisfy that requirement through community service instead of the in-classroom civics course?

I am talking about requiring the students to perform a service outside of the school. If it is required that means the students would be forced to perform services in the community.

When a person is forced to do something they don't really want to do, they typically do not put forth the effort to do a good job. I would rather have one student that wants to perform whatever the service may be than a full class with a large number that are only there to fulfill the time requirement.

 

[dejr_8]

What people are also missing about this requirement is the administration of the program.

There has to be meetings to set the rules
Non-profits need to be "approved"
Student participation needs to monitored
Non-compliant students need to be "mentored"
etc

All the time devoted to these activities has to come from somewhere. Either teachers/administration are spending additional hours on this type of program
or
the time is coming from traditional teaching activities.

For me, either case is unacceptable.

I guess there is another case where you would hire someone to administer the program which would help to explain the increasing cost of public education.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Art, music, phys ed, language are all important parts of a school system and are easily included in the mandate to educate a child. Forced participation in something outside the school is not.

Even to a certain extent, what a student does outside of school is up to them. The amount of time they spend on homework and projects is flexible while still allowing for graduation. So while a teacher may "require" something, the student has a choice in how much effort is needed or desired.

With clock time community service off school property and outside of school parameters--that is just beyond the scope of requirements of a public school system and to deny a child their diploma because of the absence of such hours, is not right.

I do feel volunteerism is a great thing, but it should be optional for those optional groups/activities that he student chooses participation.

In some ways--there are ways to BRING volunteerism into the school and then offering an activity bus for those with transportation issues if it is after school.

It hasn't been brought up, but we are often compared to other countries in our educational failures. I do wonder--in those countries where more success is experienced, do they have a similar program requirement across the board to receive their graduation certificate?

 

[Pigeon]

For a public school, absolutely not.

It is one more attempt to get schools involved in parenting. Schools should stick to education, which is difficult enough, and not stick their noses into places they don't belong.

I realize that sometimes this is legislative mandate. As my favorite bumpersticker reads, "Those that can teach, teach. Those that cannot teach, legislate." Given the state of our legislators, they should focus on improving their own characters.

I'm all for volunteer work. My kids do it. But that's their choice and our choice, exactly as it should be. And if you force people to do it, it isn't voluntary.

 

[bicker]

I am talking about requiring the students to perform a service outside of the school. If it is required that means the students would be forced to perform services in the community.

Okay, so we're in agreement then. The option to fulfill the civics requirement either by taking a classroom course or performing the community service wouldn't violate your concern.

When a person is forced to do something they don't really want to do, they typically do not put forth the effort to do a good job.

I agree.

What people are also missing about this requirement is the administration of the program.

No question about it. If it was inexpensive, it might already be in place. And to be fair, taxpayers generally have been pretty much against improving education when it will cost them money, so I doubt that such proposals will get much traction. People are for more concerned about making ends meet today than improving society long-term.

 

[TinkTock]

I think the public schools should stick to a fundamental academic education and not try to teach character and social justice. I think kids should learn those things, but I don't think public school is the place for it.

 

[jrmasm]

Service is providing labor of some sort for the community good without monetary compensation. It can be volunteer or not. In the case of it being a requirement for graduation it is not volunteer. Pretty simple really.

I t sounds awful having to deal with those kids. I think the best way to handle it would be for the schools to be very clear with the local organizations that it is FINE to send surly teens home and to refuse to sign their cards. Don't reward their crappy behaviour and do not let it interfere with your organization--send the bad apples home and do not sign. Once the word gets out that you will not get signatures unless you really get your butt in gear and WORK, kids will do it (especially if once you are sent home you have to find a new place to go because you have burned your chance at place #1). Stick to having realistic expectations of the teens for a year or two and then you will start to see a pay off as they learn (yep, learn) what is really required.

Again-- the difference is whether is is required or not. It seems to me what you feel is total BS is requiring service hours. Me, I think that is valuable and teaches many great skills.








Only academics? SO we should immediately droop gym class, art class, theatre, music, health, computer classes, life skills, sewing, childcare, mechanics, woodworking, etc. ?
If the three "Rs" are all you want out of school you will have to cut out half of the school day in most places.

I also think, to a small extent, school is about "trying to indoctrinate our kids" though I would not use such language to describe it The whole reason a society has public education is to produce the next generation of kids with a skill set and knowledge that is beneficial to the society as a whole. We educate our citizenry because an educated population is better able to compete in a world market, functions more smoothly together, etc.


I think all of this is very well said, most especially the last paragraph.

Required = Forced

Semantics

Yes, I think requiring it is b.s. but tell why that eliminates the possibility that I think volunteering is valuable and teaches great skills? Don't assume anything.

 

[Christopher Robin]

If requiring community service is acceptable, what about requiring community donations? Either in lieu of the service, or on its own merit? If we can mandate donating time, what about mandating students to donate money?

Just a question.

 

[GinnyEmma]

If requiring community service is acceptable, what about requiring community donations? Either in lieu of the service, or on its own merit? If we can mandate donating time, what about mandating students to donate money?

Just a question.

they are related how?

 

[Christopher Robin]

they are related how?

Pretty straight forward question.
If we can require students to give thier time to teach them the value of volunteering, would it also be acceptable to require students to give thier money to teach them the value of donation?

 

[kamik86]

Really I highly doubt that the service requirements would actually work for what people here think they will.

Notice everyone that said "My school requires this and it was great" also said that there kids would have done it anyway and did more then was required. I doubt that those that wouldn't do it anyway are really gaining what you think they are from the experience. Honestly some that do service anyway still aren't. I did a ton of service all through middle and early high school and still didn't understand how unfortunate some people's lives were. My service was all in teacher younger girl scouts (kids that really had plenty of opportunities but got to do more as a troop due to the increased number of people to supervise them when the high schoolers helped, or in church activities such as being an alter server (don't see anything you wouldn't see at mass anyway and I was going to have to sit there the whole time either way-this isn't why I didn't but as service it doesn't seem to really be up there) or by teaching elementary school religious education (this one did actually take up my time but again wouldn't really see any different mix of people).

I think many here have very high expectations of how much of a difference it would actually make.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I think many here have very high expectations of how much of a difference it would actually make.

The volunteer work I ended up doing did not make me a more "well rounded" person. Now that I'm an adult, I do volunteer work that is more fulfilling. But it wouldn't have counted for me in my school district.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Even to a certain extent, what a student does outside of school is up to them. The amount of time they spend on homework and projects is flexible while still allowing for graduation. So while a teacher may "require" something, the student has a choice in how much effort is needed or desired.

With clock time community service off school property and outside of school parameters--that is just beyond the scope of requirements of a public school system and to deny a child their diploma because of the absence of such hours, is not right.

I do feel volunteerism is a great thing, but it should be optional for those optional groups/activities that he student chooses participation.

In some ways--there are ways to BRING volunteerism into the school and then offering an activity bus for those with transportation issues if it is after school.

It hasn't been brought up, but we are often compared to other countries in our educational failures. I do wonder--in those countries where more success is experienced, do they have a similar program requirement across the board to receive their graduation certificate?

In high school, I had a class which required viewing the nightly news for 30 minutes every night for several weeks and then writing a summary (before internet news ).

In lower grades (sorry, my high school student is not in an American school so I cannot compare at that level for the here and now) my kids both had reading logs that required 20 minutes a night of reading to be signed off by a parent and both had exercise logs which required 30 minutes of physical exercise daily (again to be signed off by parents). Those are not things where the kids had say say in how quickly they got something done--the time limit was IT. Do you disagree with those types of requirements as well?

I think the public schools should stick to a fundamental academic education and not try to teach character and social justice. I think kids should learn those things, but I don't think public school is the place for it.

Exactly which subjects do you think fall into that? Do you feel art should be taught? DARE programs? Driver's Ed? Health? Music? Gym? Foreign Language? Theatre? Etc.

Required = Forced

Semantics

Yes, I think requiring it is b.s. but tell why that eliminates the possibility that I think volunteering is valuable and teaches great skills? Don't assume anything.

I never said it eliminated the possibility that you think volunteering is valuable and teaches great skills. What on Earth makes you think I said that? I simply was pointing out that you cannot force someone to volunteer as that is contrary to the very definition of the word.

 

[luvmy3]

Only academics? SO we should immediately droop gym class, art class, theatre, music, health, computer classes, life skills, sewing, childcare, mechanics, woodworking, etc. ?
If the three "Rs" are all you want out of school you will have to cut out half of the school day in most places.

I knew someone would bring this arguement up, but its apples and oranges. All the things you mentioned are provided by the school, done during school hours, taught by the teachers who are paid by our taxes. Requiring students to "volunteer" on their own time is not even close to the same thing. The school is not providing education to those students when they force them to go out and do something on their own time, they are mandating what the student does in order to have more control over student's life outside of school. If they want to force students to volunteer, then the faculty and staff should be responsible for ALL aspects of that volunteer work, set up where the kids go, transport them during school hours, stay and supervise, etc.
Thankfully my district doesn't do this, and if they try I will fight it. If I fail, yes I will sign off on my kid's volunteer sheet so that they will graduate because as long as they have passing grades in their classes, thats good enough for me. There was a time when that was good enough for schools, and since we can't get into politics I won't comment on why I think that has changed.

 

[dngnb8]

Should a student have to perform Community Service in order to graduate?

That is up to the school.

To graduate from the International Baccalaureate it is required.

The curriculum is meant to engage the students in community values, and community needs. Nothing wrong with that

 

[Pigeon]

I'd like to see some substantive, peer-reviewed research demonstrating that forcing unwilling kids to do volunteer work outside of school has a causal relationship to later "civic involvement."

In these days of "evidence based" educational practices, it always floors me that these feel-good initiatives get instituted with no investigation of whether or not they produce the desired outcome.

If we are going to waste the time of teachers or administrators in tracking student hours, the time of charitable organizations in dealing with students who may or may not contribute anything of value, the time of the student, and the time and money of the parents who have to provide the transportation, we should ask the hard questions.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

In high school, I had a class which required viewing the nightly news for 30 minutes every night for several weeks and then writing a summary (before internet news ).

In lower grades (sorry, my high school student is not in an American school so I cannot compare at that level for the here and now) my kids both had reading logs that required 20 minutes a night of reading to be signed off by a parent and both had exercise logs which required 30 minutes of physical exercise daily (again to be signed off by parents). Those are not things where the kids had say say in how quickly they got something done--the time limit was IT. Do you disagree with those types of requirements as well?
.

I am confused--is that in a German school or an American school? (wasn't sure if you were offering what was required internationally, or a counter to my homework comment, or what...)

Regardless...

1) These items can be peformed AT HOME? Then, it is just like any other homework--with that time element (that I have never come across growing up). I have heard of reading though--but that is a homework issue. And it can be manipulated.

2) No I do not have an issue as it is under the notion of HOMEwork. Now if they obligated you to sign your kid up for a dance class or a gym membership--I would have an issue as now that takes up additional time and funding outside of the home which public schools should not be attempting to control.

My reasons for my opinions--compulsory attendance and the right to an education.

This is not to be confused with my opinions on volunteering which have nothing to do with forced government compliance.

 

[DizBelle]

One volunteer experience I had as a teen really left a bad taste in my mouth.

My church youth group volunteered for Habitat for Humanity. They gave me a shovel and told me to "Move that pile of dirt from here to over there." When I was done, they said "Now, move it over there." All that taught me was that they wasted my time.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I knew someone would bring this arguement up, but its apples and oranges. All the things you mentioned are provided by the school, done during school hours, taught by the teachers who are paid by our taxes. Requiring students to "volunteer" on their own time is not even close to the same thing. The school is not providing education to those students when they force them to go out and do something on their own time, they are mandating what the student does in order to have more control over student's life outside of school. If they want to force students to volunteer, then the faculty and staff should be responsible for ALL aspects of that volunteer work, set up where the kids go, transport them during school hours, stay and supervise, etc.
Thankfully my district doesn't do this, and if they try I will fight it. If I fail, yes I will sign off on my kid's volunteer sheet so that they will graduate because as long as they have passing grades in their classes, thats good enough for me. There was a time when that was good enough for schools, and since we can't get into politics I won't comment on why I think that has changed.

Both myself and my kids have had numerous projects over the years which required materials and time (and transit) not provided by the school and time to do them outside of class. A few from recent years:

requirement to interview a senior at least 70 years old--could not be related to you

several science fair projects which had to have information on a tri-fold display board (had to buy that and find one in stock somewhere) and a variety of other materials and all research and assembly had to be done at home

Mandatory reading requirements with set minimum times

child had to visit a downtown area and count types of advertising seen over an hour period in a one block radius

child had to go to a busy street corner and count types of vehicles and pedestrians going through in a half hour interval--on three separate occasions

requirements to watch videos on own time

must see 3 live theatrical performances within the community and review

must participate in concerts and performances after school hours

etc.

Required time, set up, transportation and materials is OFTEN the case in school. Besides, I was responding to you saying "only academics" should be taught. So, are you actually saying anything can be taught so long as it does not require after school hours or the parents to purchase materials? I doubt you feel that way since what you said was schools should teach "only academics"--I simply would like clarification of what YOU feel falls into that category (academics) as people often define it differently.