Riviera RESALE usable at other FUTURE DVC resorts???

[Vulnox]

Another reason for Direct is timing of your vacation too. For example we had been holding out on DVC because of COVID, but now that everyone is vaccinated/boosted/been stuck at home for almost two years, we decided to take a chance at our February vacation. We bought Boardwalk non-villa cash for us and our two friends. And we have a trip planned in November where we need a two bedroom. We looked at the costs and it was going to be essentially 1/5th of the total cost of DVC direct (not counting dues of course). So we bought 200 points direct. We could have saved about $6000 buying resale based on current resale contract costs of comparable points versus our direct cost with incentives, but from everything I read it would likely not be closed in time for our Feb trip, especially since rooms were already gone. By going direct they were able to pixie dust us into a 1 Bedroom at Boardwalk for our Feb trip, and already booked our two bedroom for next November which crosses over Thanksgiving and as I noted in another thread seemed to be booking up fast (although it could have been walkers).

We would possibly just now be closing our resale contract, assuming we even found one that fit our requirements (There is only one 200pt contract on resale with our use year, and it's been pending sale for a couple weeks), and would either be locked into Riviera only or be locked out of Riviera, which is a resort we really like. There will be more resale restricted resorts in the future. The $6000 advantage disappeared very quickly for us, and overall direct cost us less than waiting for resale if you consider the cost of us paying rack rates or even renting points.

That won't be the case for all, many have no immediate plans and can wait for the resale process, between ROFR and all that, to go through. But if you already have plans in mind direct can make them easier.

But, we have the blue card now, I think if we do any "add ons" it will be some small point contracts at other resorts using resale. Would be nice to have two or three resorts overall where we could do some split stays, get a MK adjacent resort with 50-75 points where two days a trip we can be right by it. I bought direct, but I am more than happy that resale exists and intend to dip my toe there as well. I don't think there is a set answer as to one being better than the other, circumstances are important in deciding what is best for the individual.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Money doesn’t buy happiness, but it’s a good start.

I've yet to meet anyone who was happier unable to pay their rent or buy food, versus someone who could...

 

[WedWayPilot]

I’ve noticed that so many resale buyers disparage purchase of direct points, the arguments being a) the blue card is worthless, b) the additional cost is never justified (unless you want a free refill of popcorn at Aulani that’s worth less than a dollar), c) the annual pass discount for DVC members is a rip off, d) member events are nonexistent, etc, etc. But personally I think the resale restrictions, which are never going away and will only increase, new resort construction and looming 2042 expirations will severely undermine every aspect of the resale market.

I agree with you and I think the mindset of direct being bad comes from this site being sponsored by a company that sells resale contracts.

There is a lot more that goes into the decision besides “resale is cheaper.”

Timing of the point acquisition also has to play into the decision. For instance, I just bought enough direct points so that I could move from a studio to a 1 bedroom specifically at Copper Creek next July. If I had gone the resale route I would have had to wait for the ROFR process and possibly would not have been able to book when my kids were out of school for the summer. At that point paying cash for the 1 bedroom for next summer would completely wipe away the savings of buying the resale contract (6-7k).

In addition I do want the ability to use my points at Riviera and the Disneyland tower in the future. I’m aware of the argument that I can just rent my points and use cash to pay for the restricted rooms, but the room types I would want often do not get offered in the seasonal sales and using this method would not hedge against the inflation price of hotel rooms, which is one of the main benefits of DVC.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I agree with you and I think the mindset of direct being bad comes from this site being sponsored by a company that sells resale contracts.

There is a lot more that goes into the decision besides “resale is cheaper.”

Timing of the point acquisition also has to play into the decision. For instance, I just bought enough direct points so that I could move from a studio to a 1 bedroom specifically at Copper Creek next July. If I had gone the resale route I would have had to wait for the ROFR process and possibly would not have been able to book when my kids were out of school for the summer. At that point paying cash for the 1 bedroom for next summer would completely wipe away the savings of buying the resale contract (6-7k).

In addition I do want the ability to use my points at Riviera and the Disneyland tower in the future. I’m aware of the argument that I can just rent my points and use cash to pay for the restricted rooms, but the room types I would want often do not get offered in the seasonal sales and using this method would not hedge against the inflation price of hotel rooms, which is one of the main benefits of DVC.

I’m aware of the arguments re renting one’s points to pay cash for restricted rooms as well, but for me they’re not persuasive. I know renting is a relatively easy process, but for me it’s still too many steps and too much effort, even if it is financially feasible. As you’ve said, the method would not hedge against inflation.

Also, and this is more psychological but still significant to me, I just like knowing that my direct points (and I have plenty of resale as well, fyi) give me the flexibility to book whatever I want within the DVC universe.

 

[Sandisw]

I’m aware of the arguments re renting one’s points to pay cash for restricted rooms as well, but for me they’re not persuasive. I know renting is a relatively easy process, but for me it’s still too many steps and too much effort, even if it is financially feasible. As you’ve said, the method would not hedge against inflation.

Also, and this is more psychological but still significant to me, I just like knowing that my direct points (and I have plenty of resale as well, fyi) give me the flexibility to book whatever I want within the DVC universe.

To add, renting still means you give up control if your reservation. If something happens, you are most likely out money unless you pay more for a broker who offers the insurance.

It is just not the same as having points to stay as an owner.

 

[JETSDAD]

You wouldn't rent points to pay cash....you rent out your points and then rent points where you want to stay. That then is a hedge against inflation because you can rent out your points for the same that you pay for points that you want. Now that still doesn't mean everyone wants to do that of course.

 

[limace]

Well, I think much of the argument against direct is that DVC is just another timeshare-really. I mean, I love owning so not disparaging, and we have some direct points, but it’s not anything magical. And the cold hard truth on timeshares is that a developer purchase almost never makes sense. Especially now with the vast majority of benefits being theoretical-you probably will be able to buy APs again, Disney probably will build more resorts that you might like and will probably restrict resale owners from staying there….

It’s so interesting to watch as things got pulled back recently-member benefits, Reflections, APs. Because on these boards we, on one hand, remind people that those were never promised to you, that all you bought was a right to use your points, so you can’t complain when the extras, the benefits are taken away-and on the other hand, every day we buy and often encourage others to buy based on an assumption that all those magical things will return.

 

[TinkAgainU]

I agree with you and I think the mindset of direct being bad comes from this site being sponsored by a company that sells resale contracts.

While I think Disboards has some limitations based on who owns it (I find the fact "some" resellers cannot be mentioned on the site makes me crazy - and no, I don't know WHO those are lol)... I do find the members are pretty outspoken both for and against direct sales - so that makes me think the site is not much "policed" to force people to be pro or con about direct sales... This is a pretty outspoken group (although it is Far more polite than I usually find online

 

[Paul Stupin]

Well, I think much of the argument against direct is that DVC is just another timeshare-really. I mean, I love owning so not disparaging, and we have some direct points, but it’s not anything magical. And the cold hard truth on timeshares is that a developer purchase almost never makes sense. Especially now with the vast majority of benefits being theoretical-you probably will be able to buy APs again, Disney probably will build more resorts that you might like and will probably restrict resale owners from staying there….

It’s so interesting to watch as things got pulled back recently-member benefits, Reflections, APs. Because on these boards we, on one hand, remind people that those were never promised to you, that all you bought was a right to use your points, so you can’t complain when the extras, the benefits are taken away-and on the other hand, every day we buy and often encourage others to buy based on an assumption that all those magical things will return.

Well, I think it’s a safer bet that DVC direct magical things will return than, say, being able to use resale points at new resorts, or 2042 resorts after 2042, or DLT, or Riviera, or resale restrictions going away.

 

[Vulnox]

Well, I think it’s a safer bet that DVC direct magical things will return than, say, being able to use resale points at new resorts, or 2042 resorts after 2042, or DLT, or Riviera, or resale restrictions going away.

Right, and I don't think many member benefits have been pulled back. Actually none of the ones mentioned are really pulled back. Nobody can buy APs right now, DVC or not, and when the window was open to buy them DVC members were still able. So that one isn't pulled back, at least as it relates to DVC alone. Reflections was halted because of COVID, and while there are rumors of its cancellation, I can't find anything to indicate it is a permanent situation and not just one that will be revisited once things are more stable and predictable, besides I don't think new resorts count as member benefits. If Disney intends to never build another resort, that doesn't bode well for DVC as a whole, resale or not, but I don't think that is the case.

And yeah, none of the benefits are guaranteed by being direct, but it's not like direct benefits will ever be shed at a rate that is faster than resale benefits, to the point where they hit parity. Resale benefits have been cut too, there was a time not that long ago where resale contracts could use points at other resorts.

I am not only pro resale or pro direct, I think each has their pros and cons and situational benefits that shift the weight of those pros and cons. Anyone saying there is no good reason for one or the other just hasn't thought about it enough.

 

[Brian Noble]

I agree with you and I think the mindset of direct being bad comes from this site being sponsored by a company that sells resale contracts.

I've been around here a long time. The idea that the secondary market is a better dollars-and-cents deal has been around a lot longer than that. The argument about which one is "better" has been around just about as long.

DVC's differentiation between retail and resale is a well-trod path, and plenty of other timeshare developers have been down it. Nearly all of the other major players had some notion of "qualified" membership with benefits--some more tangible than others--long before DVC did. DVC isn't even the first developer to eject resales from the larger "club" and instead have such ownerships revert to their underlying rights. Marriott and Diamond had been doing this for years before RIV came about.

The one place that DVC is different is that, so far, there is no way to "re-qualify" resale points. Marriott will allow you to bring resale points back into the club for a fairly hefty per-point fee. Diamond allows you to "wash" dirty points, but you have to buy some other new points to do so.

I suspect that in the (very) long run, DVC will create a similar mechanism. Right now, the booking distinction between O14 resale and retail points is still largely theoretical, and so there probably isn't much reason to create such a mechanism. There is a grand total of one of the 15 DVC resorts that resale owners cannot book. Disney is better than most about projecting a sense of urgency around FOMO, but even still most people can shrug their shoulders about RIV. Over time, when the balance shifts and more of the system is not available to resale ownerships, that might be more opportunity to create a mechanism to requalify resale points. Rest assured that any such mechanism will not be cheap.

Reflections was halted because of COVID, and while there are rumors of its cancellation, I can't find anything to indicate it is a permanent situation and not just one that will be revisited once things are more stable and predictable

I think that plot will be used for something eventually, and that something will probably have at least a DVC component if not fully DVC. But, they re-seeded the site and removed the construction trailers, so it's probably going to be a good long while.

https://dvcnews.com/resorts/reflect...d-to-remove-reflections-construction-trailers

 

[MickeyMice]

i think the direct/resale distinction is basically a form of price discrimination. i'm sure DVD is well aware that high direct pricing is supported by the robust resale market. some buyers want it all with no restrictions and want it now, and are willing to pay premium, and DVD is happy to capture those dollars. i personally wouldn't have paid the direct premium and don't mind the restrictions, but i bought in because of the resale discount, and guess what: i'm still propping up the market AND committing to spend many more thousands at WDW in the future.

 

[Vulnox]

Yeah the resale restrictions, of any kind, don't make much sense to me. Seems to just kill good will without much reward. We pay MFs regardless of status, and it's not like you are buying points that were never originally sold by DVC. What name is on the deed should be irrelevant. There isn't a logical reason why I should be entitled to AP discounts for having direct, but my points later sold to someone else, where the physical deed isn't different, just the name on it, suddenly isn't entitled to the discount. Disney keeps getting their MFs (yes I know it's supposed to be for hotel upkeep and that, but it's still a huge benefit to them because they aren't having to pay for that), and it's still the same "points".

If they are worried it would drive everyone to just buy resale because it's less expensive, that would have an equilibrium point. The demand for those resale contracts would always be higher than direct so long as resale is still cheaper, but that would increase resale selling prices while still pushing many (if not most) to direct because it's the only way to get the exact points and UY they want and there are a finite number of resale contracts, which is an enticing selling point no matter what for Direct.

They also still have ROFR to reclaim points and so on. They probably wouldn't even lose many direct sales either compared to what they are losing right now with people that research buying direct and see on places like here all the people saying how Disney keeps taking away benefits, and how you don't know what restrictions will come, etc, etc. It almost kept us from buying in, because in ten years Disney could make some move that totally devastates the resale market and now we have no good exit strategy if we ever needed one.

Anyway, I know it's a lost cause to wish for that to be the case. Disney, like most any mega corp, will be easily convinced that the possibility of small profit increase is worth the hit to consumer good will, even with their most loyal customers. The part that sucks is probably half of their decisions haven't really improved profits, but still hit good will.

 

[TinkAgainU]

Anyway, I know it's a lost cause to wish for that to be the case. Disney, like most any mega corp, will be easily convinced that the possibility of small profit increase is worth the hit to consumer good will, even with their most loyal customers. The part that sucks is probably half of their decisions haven't really improved profits, but still hit good will.

I agree with all of this. Sadly, when someone's job is considered done well based almost entirely on the $#s (and what the stock market etc. says those numbers mean), the value of Good Will and the perception of a brand being Decent (as in "a decent human being) is not as quantifiable. WE see the legacy value of a business with magic (and decency at the core) and hope that will be something we can pass on to future generations. Here's hoping enough Disney management sees that year-after-year as well. As you know, we are buying the future magic, not the hotel space.

 

[BamaGuy44]

I agree with all of this. Sadly, when someone's job is considered done well based almost entirely on the $#s (and what the stock market etc. says those numbers mean), the value of Good Will and the perception of a brand being Decent (as in "a decent human being) is not as quantifiable. WE see the legacy value of a business with magic (and decency at the core) and hope that will be something we can pass on to future generations. Here's hoping enough Disney management sees that year-after-year as well. As you know, we are buying the future magic, not the hotel space.

That's all true but Disney has been a mega Corp for decades, and they still managed to value customer experience and good will more than most. Not impossible that a future leadership team could lean more toward providing "magic". Maybe wishful thinking but I choose to believe

 

[Frugal Fairy Tales]

Yes but only if the resort was removed from BVTC. Which means all owners not resale only.

What id BVTC?

 

[Sandisw]

What id BVTC?

Buena Vista Trading Company. The reason we can exchange our home resort points into points to be used at other places is because the resorts belong to BVTC. However, if a resort was ever removed from it...and there are rules and reasons that they could be removed...then points at that resort would only be valid for stays at your home resort.

When we buy, that is all we are guaranteed. The reason the rules are different for RIV is because it entered under new terms that were different from the other resorts (not everyone things it should have been allowed).

But, as I mentioned, once a resort is removed, no points can be used to trade. So, this would not be something with the L14 resorts that can change for direct vs. resale. IMO, this is why when RIV came about, all those who owned prior to the addition of RIV were grandfathered in because that allowed their points to eligible for the same trading as was allowed when they purchased.

It certainly would not make sense for DVC to remove any of the resorts from trading right now...but, given what happened with RIV, I think the restriction when buying points resale will continue. I do wonder if we won't see some level of this when we get close to 2042 for VB and HH in which BVTC seeks to remove them.

 

[Wakey]

I own direct and resale. I did buy an annual pass, has to be the Platinum one as was, as we came at Christmas, and that was taken away by Bob. So that’s a big benefit lost for us.
I live in the U.K. and was never there for Moonlight Magic.
The Epcot Lounge was closed at 10am when we tried to visit the other week.
I did like the $50 I saved on meal discounts over Xmas this year.
I refuse to buy any more merchandise as my last DVC mug was trash and the pattern just washed off. I sent a nice email asking if they would replace it, and they told me to take a running jump. So I told them I won’t buy anymore of the tat.
So you can probably guess I would buy resale. I can’t see the value in the direct premium unless you have to have the latest resort, or want a small contract, even more so given resale restrictions on RIV.
I cannot see that they can place any more restrictions on current resale owners.

 

[Frugal Fairy Tales]

Buena Vista Trading Company. The reason we can exchange our home resort points into points to be used at other places is because the resorts belong to BVTC. However, if a resort was ever removed from it...and there are rules and reasons that they could be removed...then points at that resort would only be valid for stays at your home resort.

When we buy, that is all we are guaranteed. The reason the rules are different for RIV is because it entered under new terms that were different from the other resorts (not everyone things it should have been allowed).

But, as I mentioned, once a resort is removed, no points can be used to trade. So, this would not be something with the L14 resorts that can change for direct vs. resale. IMO, this is why when RIV came about, all those who owned prior to the addition of RIV were grandfathered in because that allowed their points to eligible for the same trading as was allowed when they purchased.

It certainly would not make sense for DVC to remove any of the resorts from trading right now...but, given what happened with RIV, I think the restriction when buying points resale will continue. I do wonder if we won't see some level of this when we get close to 2042 for VB and HH in which BVTC seeks to remove them.

Thank you for this thorough explanation

 

[Paul Stupin]

I agree with all of this. Sadly, when someone's job is considered done well based almost entirely on the $#s (and what the stock market etc. says those numbers mean), the value of Good Will and the perception of a brand being Decent (as in "a decent human being) is not as quantifiable. WE see the legacy value of a business with magic (and decency at the core) and hope that will be something we can pass on to future generations. Here's hoping enough Disney management sees that year-after-year as well. As you know, we are buying the future magic, not the hotel space.

Not sure I understand. If you paid less for resale points, and you knew what you were buying going in, I’m not sure you can accuse Disney of not being decent or offering enough magic by not giving you the benefits the buyers of direct points receive.