Riviera RESALE usable at other FUTURE DVC resorts???

[Paul Stupin]

Yeah the resale restrictions, of any kind, don't make much sense to me. Seems to just kill good will without much reward. We pay MFs regardless of status, and it's not like you are buying points that were never originally sold by DVC. What name is on the deed should be irrelevant. There isn't a logical reason why I should be entitled to AP discounts for having direct, but my points later sold to someone else, where the physical deed isn't different, just the name on it, suddenly isn't entitled to the discount. Disney keeps getting their MFs (yes I know it's supposed to be for hotel upkeep and that, but it's still a huge benefit to them because they aren't having to pay for that), and it's still the same "points".

If they are worried it would drive everyone to just buy resale because it's less expensive, that would have an equilibrium point. The demand for those resale contracts would always be higher than direct so long as resale is still cheaper, but that would increase resale selling prices while still pushing many (if not most) to direct because it's the only way to get the exact points and UY they want and there are a finite number of resale contracts, which is an enticing selling point no matter what for Direct.

They also still have ROFR to reclaim points and so on. They probably wouldn't even lose many direct sales either compared to what they are losing right now with people that research buying direct and see on places like here all the people saying how Disney keeps taking away benefits, and how you don't know what restrictions will come, etc, etc. It almost kept us from buying in, because in ten years Disney could make some move that totally devastates the resale market and now we have no good exit strategy if we ever needed one.

Anyway, I know it's a lost cause to wish for that to be the case. Disney, like most any mega corp, will be easily convinced that the possibility of small profit increase is worth the hit to consumer good will, even with their most loyal customers. The part that sucks is probably half of their decisions haven't really improved profits, but still hit good will.

I've been around here a long time. The idea that the secondary market is a better dollars-and-cents deal has been around a lot longer than that. The argument about which one is "better" has been around just about as long.

DVC's differentiation between retail and resale is a well-trod path, and plenty of other timeshare developers have been down it. Nearly all of the other major players had some notion of "qualified" membership with benefits--some more tangible than others--long before DVC did. DVC isn't even the first developer to eject resales from the larger "club" and instead have such ownerships revert to their underlying rights. Marriott and Diamond had been doing this for years before RIV came about.

The one place that DVC is different is that, so far, there is no way to "re-qualify" resale points. Marriott will allow you to bring resale points back into the club for a fairly hefty per-point fee. Diamond allows you to "wash" dirty points, but you have to buy some other new points to do so.

I suspect that in the (very) long run, DVC will create a similar mechanism. Right now, the booking distinction between O14 resale and retail points is still largely theoretical, and so there probably isn't much reason to create such a mechanism. There is a grand total of one of the 15 DVC resorts that resale owners cannot book. Disney is better than most about projecting a sense of urgency around FOMO, but even still most people can shrug their shoulders about RIV. Over time, when the balance shifts and more of the system is not available to resale ownerships, that might be more opportunity to create a mechanism to requalify resale points. Rest assured that any such mechanism will not be cheap.


I think that plot will be used for something eventually, and that something will probably have at least a DVC component if not fully DVC. But, they re-seeded the site and removed the construction trailers, so it's probably going to be a good long while.

https://dvcnews.com/resorts/reflect...d-to-remove-reflections-construction-trailers

Sure, people can shrug their shoulders about Riviera right now. But with 2042 resorts going offline for all resale contract owners in less than 20 years, and DLT soon to be part of our world, I think all it would take to deal a major blow to resale is one additional announcement of a new WDW resort with a DVC component. Some spectacular renderings of beautiful accommodations, unique design and fun features could very well tip the balance toward direct, and cause downward pressure in resale prices.

 

[havoc315]

Will Riviera resale points be usable at other future DVC resorts (DVC 2.0 scenario) or only at Riviera? Thanks

As others have said, only Riviera.

And there is no such thing as DVC 2.0. That will never ever happen. There is just one Disney Vacation Club. Riviera and other future resorts will have re-sale restrictions preventing using points outside your home resort. (And don't be shocked if even the original 14 resorts get more and more re-sale restrictions added to the extent permitted under their contracts) .

 

[Brian Noble]

cause downward pressure in resale prices.

From your lips....

 

[DisDad-]

As others have said, only Riviera.

And there is no such thing as DVC 2.0. That will never ever happen. There is just one Disney Vacation Club. Riviera and other future resorts will have re-sale restrictions preventing using points outside your home resort. (And don't be shocked if even the original 14 resorts get more and more re-sale restrictions added to the extent permitted under their contracts) .

And that’s why they say buy where you’d want to stay. I believe this restriction to home resort use is coming. Within the next 5 years. And it might not even be that long.

 

[Wakey]

As others have said, only Riviera.

And there is no such thing as DVC 2.0. That will never ever happen. There is just one Disney Vacation Club. Riviera and other future resorts will have re-sale restrictions preventing using points outside your home resort. (And don't be shocked if even the original 14 resorts get more and more re-sale restrictions added to the extent permitted under their contracts) .

They can’t restrict current resale to home resorts only. They would be sued to high heaven. And even if they did, they would grandfather in otherwise their reputation would be trashed.

 

[Wakey]

And that’s why they say buy where you’d want to stay. I believe this restriction to home resort use is coming. Within the next 5 years. And it might not even be that long.

I can’t see it, as it would be illegal (which is exactly why they structured it as they did with Riviera.).

 

[jbreen2010]

IMO, Disney needs the strong resale market because it helps them justify what is charged for direct sales. To me it feels like having that separate stock market of resale points, keeps pricing at “market” and provides DVC plenty of free market guidance on preferences and prices (heck people on these boards and resale companies make charts, etc.)

one luxury of the DVC timeshare compared to other timeshares Is that they have held this sort of market rate. My aunt bought a timeshare at another company and it’s not worth anything now. I would think Disney likes the resale market because it keeps a nice balance - ie buy points because it’s not a worthless purchase and holds some type of value. BUT with that said, they need to make sure the direct purchases also generate good $$ for them.

 

[Sandisw]

They can’t restrict current resale to home resorts only. They would be sued to high heaven. And even if they did, they would grandfather in otherwise their reputation would be trashed.

I think that is why all previous owners were grandfathered into the way points can be traded into BVTC once RIV entered

They have the right to amend that agreement, but the fact that it changed only moving forward I think prevented any owners from pushing back because the terms stayed the same for them,

Terms restricting to L14 were only for those moving forward. I agree that there is no way to limit resale owners to home resort because any removal from BVTC would mean all owners at that resort,

Even if BVTC dissolved, it would mean all owners would be stuck. Given this change was 3 years ago, I don’t think we will see any more changes until we get to 2042 when resorts expire and those will become new and no longer eligible for trading.

 

[EYL]

(And don't be shocked if even the original 14 resorts get more and more re-sale restrictions added to the extent permitted under their contracts) .

They can’t restrict current resale to home resorts only. They would be sued to high heaven. And even if they did, they would grandfather in otherwise their reputation would be trashed.

This one resale restriction is a big enough blow for both Riviera and O14 buyers, and I hope it stops here. (Wishful thinking, I know!)

While the resale restrictions seem to be more restrictive for Riviera owners right now, it will get more and more restrictive for the O14 as time passes. Right now, there are 14 other resorts for the resale buyer to trade into. In 2043, there will be only 9 for the resale buyer to trade into, and probably 14+ resorts for the direct buyer to trade into. In 2067, the Copper Creek resale buyer can only book at Copper Creek and will be competing with the direct buyers at 7 months.

When people buy Riviera direct knowing that the resale restrictions are there, they say "I don't plan on selling, so I don't care about them." What if the O14 resale buyer says the same? If they don't plan on selling, their points will get more and more restrictive as the years go by. So if they don't sell, they will have to care. If they plan on selling, then the question will be "when"? In 2043, with O9 remaining, a Grand Floridian contract will have 21 years remaining (roughly the same number of years remaining as a current 2042 resort). Will it be valued lower than if the restrictions were not around? Will it take a dive when the number of original resorts shrink? The only thing that's for certain is that it will be worth more than $1...

 

[havoc315]

They can’t restrict current resale to home resorts only. They would be sued to high heaven. And even if they did, they would grandfather in otherwise their reputation would be trashed.

They would have to grandfather in. I didn't say they would restrict to home resorts only -- I merely said I expected more and more restrictions added to resale, which already has been the trend for the last decade. Resale stopped qualifying for exchanges with Disney cruises, other benefits got restricted to "blue cards," re-sale buyers can't use their points at future resorts. No reason to believe this trend will stop. Go back 10 years, there wasn't a big difference between buying re-sale and buying direct. Go forward another 10-20 years, buying re-sale will be a greatly diminished experience compared to buying direct.

 

[havoc315]

This one resale restriction is a big enough blow for both Riviera and O14 buyers, and I hope it stops here. (Wishful thinking, I know!)

While the resale restrictions seem to be more restrictive for Riviera owners right now, it will get more and more restrictive for the O14 as time passes. Right now, there are 14 other resorts for the resale buyer to trade into. In 2043, there will be only 9 for the resale buyer to trade into, and probably 14+ resorts for the direct buyer to trade into. In 2067, the Copper Creek resale buyer can only book at Copper Creek and will be competing with the direct buyers at 7 months.

This is they key. If you are only thinking short-term, say the next 5-10 years, the resale restrictions on O14 don't seem like a big deal. But come 2043... Not only will the O14 re-sale buyer be limited to just 9 resorts-- They won't have ANY Epcot resorts they can trade into. And they will have the OLDEST 9 resorts.

When people buy Riviera direct knowing that the resale restrictions are there, they say "I don't plan on selling, so I don't care about them." What if the O14 resale buyer says the same? If they don't plan on selling, their points will get more and more restrictive as the years go by. So if they don't sell, they will have to care. If they plan on selling, then the question will be "when"? In 2043, with O9 remaining, a Grand Floridian contract will have 21 years remaining (roughly the same number of years remaining as a current 2042 resort). Will it be valued lower than if the restrictions were not around? Will it take a dive when the number of original resorts shrink? The only thing that's for certain is that it will be worth more than $1...

And that's all why, as a Riviera owner, I don't care about the re-sale restrictions. I don't know if I'll ever sell. But I won't sell for the next 15-20 years. And by then, re-sale won't be looking for hot anywhere.

 

[motherof5]

Will Riviera resale points be usable at other future DVC resorts (DVC 2.0 scenario) or only at Riviera? Thanks

I thought Rivera and future. Just like resale now doesn't include new resorts like Riviera and future ones

 

[Sandisw]

This is they key. If you are only thinking short-term, say the next 5-10 years, the resale restrictions on O14 don't seem like a big deal. But come 2043... Not only will the O14 re-sale buyer be limited to just 9 resorts-- They won't have ANY Epcot resorts they can trade into. And they will have the OLDEST 9 resorts.




And that's all why, as a Riviera owner, I don't care about the re-sale restrictions. I don't know if I'll ever sell. But I won't sell for the next 15-20 years. And by then, re-sale won't be looking for hot anywhere.

That is us. We don’t plan to sell and my children are now owners of the direct points because they plan to go for a long time. Since they didn’t pay for any of the points, don’t pay MFs…won’t pay them for 10 years once we pass as that is being set aside in our estate…it is all good.

Given the popularity of RIV, the resale value, even if it drops, owners should be able to get back at least 50% if an emergency happens. Right now, the loss is pretty low,

 

[JETSDAD]

IMO, Disney needs the strong resale market because it helps them justify what is charged for direct sales. To me it feels like having that separate stock market of resale points, keeps pricing at “market” and provides DVC plenty of free market guidance on preferences and prices (heck people on these boards and resale companies make charts, etc.)

one luxury of the DVC timeshare compared to other timeshares Is that they have held this sort of market rate. My aunt bought a timeshare at another company and it’s not worth anything now. I would think Disney likes the resale market because it keeps a nice balance - ie buy points because it’s not a worthless purchase and holds some type of value. BUT with that said, they need to make sure the direct purchases also generate good $$ for them.

The thing is that people still buy other timeshares direct at high prices even when the resale is pennies on the dollar if anything at all. Most direct buyers are just caught up in the moment and the sales pitch while on a high during a Disney vacation. Even with a crappy resale market they would do just fine and then they could also buy contracts back cheaper.

 

[Vulnox]

I don't agree with the above comment that RIV direct buyers are saying they don't care about resale as they don't intend on selling, that may be the case for some, but that certainly isn't going to be the case for all. I am open to selling our contract, I can look back just at the last ten years of my life and how much things changed, how I thought we were going to live in the state we were in back then for years to come but ended up moving suddenly six years ago. I am always expecting things will change. The kids won't care as much about WDW as we expected, or we buy a vacation property on a lake and end up going there most weekends or whatever. I bought Riviera direct and absolutely care about the resale market.

What doesn't match up with saying RIV Direct buyers don't care about the resale market is that we still bought in because the resale market so far isn't showing that the restrictions are hurting it that badly. I spend time here, and see post after post from often the same people, saying that the RIV restrictions are going to kill RIV on resale or people won't buy them or whatever, so in a panic I rush to the resale sites to see if I can add on to my contract for $20/point! But all I find are contracts, selling too not just sitting there, for $145-155/point, about on par with the resorts that don't have the restrictions (at least within the O14).

The math can shift, as was noted resorts are going to drop out of the O14 trading group over the coming years. The number of available Riviera resale contracts will increase, etc. But it has been about three years of Riviera direct sales and the great resale apocalypse continues to not come. So I bought direct because so far there is more evidence that the resale restrictions are only a huge deal to a select group a people, and the market as a whole still has buyers.

None of the above is meant as a knock against anyone that avoids RIV due to the restrictions. The restrictions still suck and I think they are a bad idea, and if I was looking to buy Riviera on resale I would not buy it, at least as my first contract. But the Riviera restrictions would also prevent me from buying resale for the other resorts. So it's funny that way I guess. I want to stay at Riviera, because I like Riviera, a lot. But I like the flexibility of being at other resorts. So I would never in a million years buy AKL or SSR because it's cheaper on resale because I couldn't stay at Riviera without renting out points and buying cash or maybe doing a transfer or some other headache.

But others don't care about Riviera as a resort, restrictions aside, so they wouldn't care and will buy an O14 resale regardless. Point is, there will continue to be a market for all types, and saying that one choice or another will be the death of resale for that resort or resale as a whole is setting aside that probably 95% of buyers of DVC, resale or direct, don't spend much time here reading about how bad a choice they are making (whatever that choice is).

 

[Sandisw]

I don't agree with the above comment that RIV direct buyers are saying they don't care about resale as they don't intend on selling, that may be the case for some, but that certainly isn't going to be the case for all. I am open to selling our contract, I can look back just at the last ten years of my life and how much things changed, how I thought we were going to live in the state we were in back then for years to come but ended up moving suddenly six years ago. I am always expecting things will change. The kids won't care as much about WDW as we expected, or we buy a vacation property on a lake and end up going there most weekends or whatever. I bought Riviera direct and absolutely care about the resale market.

What doesn't match up with saying RIV Direct buyers don't care about the resale market is that we still bought in because the resale market so far isn't showing that the restrictions are hurting it that badly. I spend time here, and see post after post from often the same people, saying that the RIV restrictions are going to kill RIV on resale or people won't buy them or whatever, so in a panic I rush to the resale sites to see if I can add on to my contract for $20/point! But all I find are contracts, selling too not just sitting there, for $145-155/point, about on par with the resorts that don't have the restrictions (at least within the O14).

The math can shift, as was noted resorts are going to drop out of the O14 trading group over the coming years. The number of available Riviera resale contracts will increase, etc. But it has been about three years of Riviera direct sales and the great resale apocalypse continues to not come. So I bought direct because so far there is more evidence that the resale restrictions are only a huge deal to a select group a people, and the market as a whole still has buyers.

None of the above is meant as a knock against anyone that avoids RIV due to the restrictions. The restrictions still suck and I think they are a bad idea, and if I was looking to buy Riviera on resale I would not buy it, at least as my first contract. But the Riviera restrictions would also prevent me from buying resale for the other resorts. So it's funny that way I guess. I want to stay at Riviera, because I like Riviera, a lot. But I like the flexibility of being at other resorts. So I would never in a million years buy AKL or SSR because it's cheaper on resale because I couldn't stay at Riviera without renting out points and buying cash or maybe doing a transfer or some other headache.

But others don't care about Riviera as a resort, restrictions aside, so they wouldn't care and will buy an O14 resale regardless. Point is, there will continue to be a market for all types, and saying that one choice or another will be the death of resale for that resort or resale as a whole is setting aside that probably 95% of buyers of DVC, resale or direct, don't spend much time here reading about how bad a choice they are making (whatever that choice is).

Honestly, most of the direct buyers are not found here on the boards and many have no idea about resale the way the rest of us do. I have talked to a lot of people when at the resorts and almost all had no idea.

They know it’s restricted because you have to sign that paper but still don’t really think about it.

So, while some may have known or thought about it, I’d venture most go into DVC with that aspect far from the decision.

Now the fact that it is doing not to bad is something that may sway those on the fence.

I would even go as far to say the majority who buy DVC resale don’t put that much weight in it outside of those heavy on forums like this.

 

[Vulnox]

Honestly, most of the direct buyers are not found here on the boards and many have no idea about resale the way the rest of us do. I have talked to a lot of people when at the resorts and almost all had no idea.

They know it’s restricted because you have to sign that paper but still don’t really think about it.

So, while some may have known or thought about it, I’d venture most go into DVC with that aspect far from the decision.

Now the fact that it is doing not to bad is something that may sway those on the fence.

I would even go as far to say the majority who buy DVC resale don’t put that much weight in it outside of those heavy on forums like this.

Yeah exactly, spending time at any forum can make it feel like everyone also looks at things a certain way. I mentioned it before but I am part of some auto forums, and it's easy to get sucked into the feelings about certain aspects of the vehicle that the forum will obsess about, and I love taking part in discussing. But a friend of mine owns the same vehicle as me, and if I asked him about any of the stuff that the forum can't stop talking about, he would say "Huh, I didn't even know that, doesn't matter to me though I guess...".

Nothing wrong with that, we all have our own interests and passions. I am happy we have so many on this site that are critical about a lot of this stuff, even if to me or others it may not matter much. It keeps Disney on their toes. I started watching the DIS podcast, and they echo that a lot. People on these boards go over every decision Disney tries to sneak past, and Disney probably hates it, but to me it's what makes these forums so amazing and a big part of why I bought my points. Even if something isn't noticed by me or maybe I don't think it will be a big deal, there are always going to be people here that find it and don't let Disney off easy.

 

[Jimmy Geppetto]

re, and see post after post from often the same people, saying that the RIV restrictions are going to kill RIV on resale or people won't buy them or whatever, so in a panic I rush to the resale sites to see if I can add on to my contract for $20/point! But all I find are contracts, selling too not just sitting there, for $145-155/point

I don't agree with the above comment that RIV direct buyers are saying they don't care about resale as they don't intend on selling, that may be the case for some, but that certainly isn't going to be the case for all. I am open to selling our contract, I can look back just at the last ten years of my life and how much things changed, how I thought we were going to live in the state we were in back then for years to come but ended up moving suddenly six years ago. I am always expecting things will change. The kids won't care as much about WDW as we expected, or we buy a vacation property on a lake and end up going there most weekends or whatever. I bought Riviera direct and absolutely care about the resale market.

What doesn't match up with saying RIV Direct buyers don't care about the resale market is that we still bought in because the resale market so far isn't showing that the restrictions are hurting it that badly. I spend time here, and see post after post from often the same people, saying that the RIV restrictions are going to kill RIV on resale or people won't buy them or whatever, so in a panic I rush to the resale sites to see if I can add on to my contract for $20/point! But all I find are contracts, selling too not just sitting there, for $145-155/point, about on par with the resorts that don't have the restrictions (at least within the O14).

The math can shift, as was noted resorts are going to drop out of the O14 trading group over the coming years. The number of available Riviera resale contracts will increase, etc. But it has been about three years of Riviera direct sales and the great resale apocalypse continues to not come. So I bought direct because so far there is more evidence that the resale restrictions are only a huge deal to a select group a people, and the market as a whole still has buyers.

None of the above is meant as a knock against anyone that avoids RIV due to the restrictions. The restrictions still suck and I think they are a bad idea, and if I was looking to buy Riviera on resale I would not buy it, at least as my first contract. But the Riviera restrictions would also prevent me from buying resale for the other resorts. So it's funny that way I guess. I want to stay at Riviera, because I like Riviera, a lot. But I like the flexibility of being at other resorts. So I would never in a million years buy AKL or SSR because it's cheaper on resale because I couldn't stay at Riviera without renting out points and buying cash or maybe doing a transfer or some other headache.

But others don't care about Riviera as a resort, restrictions aside, so they wouldn't care and will buy an O14 resale regardless. Point is, there will continue to be a market for all types, and saying that one choice or another will be the death of resale for that resort or resale as a whole is setting aside that probably 95% of buyers of DVC, resale or direct, don't spend much time here reading about how bad a choice they are making (whatever that choice is).

Extremely well said! 100% agree!

 

[EYL]

I don't agree with the above comment that RIV direct buyers are saying they don't care about resale as they don't intend on selling, that may be the case for some, but that certainly isn't going to be the case for all. I am open to selling our contract, I can look back just at the last ten years of my life and how much things changed, how I thought we were going to live in the state we were in back then for years to come but ended up moving suddenly six years ago. I am always expecting things will change. The kids won't care as much about WDW as we expected, or we buy a vacation property on a lake and end up going there most weekends or whatever. I bought Riviera direct and absolutely care about the resale market.

Sorry. If your post is directed at mine, I didn't mean to put in a generalization to indicate that all RIV direct buyers don't care about the restrictions because they do not intend on selling. There are those who plan ahead. What I said was just something I've read in these Boards or heard in Vlogs/blogs.

For the record, I am also a RIV direct buyer. As I was fully aware of the resale restrictions, I was always hesitant to buy into RIV. But a stay at RIV this past August changed that. Wifey loved the place, and as they say, "happy wife, happy life!" So here I am with 250 direct RIV points. We did, however, purchase it with an exit strategy in case we have to sell if life overrules our hopes. The resale value of RIV is holding up quite well, and we hope that our contracts will be on the high end of it.

 

[Vulnox]

Sorry. If your post is directed at mine, I didn't mean to put in a generalization to indicate that all RIV direct buyers don't care about the restrictions because they do not intend on selling. There are those who plan ahead. What I said was just something I've read in these Boards or heard in Vlogs/blogs.

For the record, I am also a RIV direct buyer. As I was fully aware of the resale restrictions, I was always hesitant to buy into RIV. But a stay at RIV this past August changed that. Wifey loved the place, and as they say, "happy wife, happy life!" So here I am with 250 direct RIV points. We did, however, purchase it with an exit strategy in case we have to sell if life overrules our hopes. The resale value of RIV is holding up quite well, and we hope that our contracts will be on the high end of it.

Yeah it looks like it was yours that I saw and was thinking of. Sorry for the misunderstanding, it can be tough on forums because it’s all in how someone reads something and not how you intended it when writing. I like discussing this stuff on here and certainly don’t have all the answers, just trying to stay positive and hope for the best.