Right of way for bikers and joggers? Debate

[because]

It's a gray area. Legally the driver has the right to pass through the crosswalk until a pedestrian steps off the curb.

No gray area where we live. If a pedestrian is trying to cross, you HAVE to stop and let them cross. A driver does not legally have to right to pass through a cross walk if there is someone waiting to cross.

 

[monsterkitty]

I'm in CO and I thought that our law was that if someone is at a crosswalk without lights, cars must stop to let them walk. However, at a park I run at, I have to cross a street at a crosswalk to get from the parking lot to the running paths. Cars rarely stop if you're standing at the crosswalk. In fact I've heard people say that they don't stop at the crosswalk while driving unless someone was in the crosswalk. I've argued with them saying that if they're at the crosswalk waiting to cross, the pedestrian has the right of way.

I looked at the law for CO and it states, "When traffic control signals are not in place or not in operation, the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way, slowing down or stopping if need be to so yield, to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk when the pedestrian is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling or when the pedestrian is approaching so closely from the opposite half of the roadway as to be in danger."

To me the "upon" means if they are "upon" the crosswalk, i.e. waiting at the sidewalk to cross. Others at lunch argued with me saying they have to be in the crosswalk. So we asked our SRO, who is a county deputy. She said in CO if someone is standing at a crosswalk that does not have lights or a stop sign, drivers must stop even if the person has not entered the crosswalk yet. If a person is standing waiting to cross and you don't stop (given you can stop safely), you can be ticketed in CO. Our SRO said that we have so many drivers from states who don't have the same laws that we need to make sure the kids know that they shouldn't enter a crosswalk until an approaching car actually stops. Then tell the student to make eye contact with the driver as the enter the crosswalk so that they know the driver has seen them.

Bikes being ridden do not count as a pedestrian, but if you are walking with your bike then you are a pedestrian.

 

[wenrob]

I'm in CO and I thought that our law was that if someone is at a crosswalk without lights, cars must stop to let them walk. However, at a park I run at, I have to cross a street at a crosswalk to get from the parking lot to the running paths. Cars rarely stop if you're standing at the crosswalk. In fact I've heard people say that they don't stop at the crosswalk while driving unless someone was in the crosswalk. I've argued with them saying that if they're at the crosswalk waiting to cross, the pedestrian has the right of way.

I looked at the law for CO and it states, "When traffic control signals are not in place or not in operation, the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way, slowing down or stopping if need be to so yield, to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk when the pedestrian is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling or when the pedestrian is approaching so closely from the opposite half of the roadway as to be in danger."

To me the "upon" means if they are "upon" the crosswalk, i.e. waiting at the sidewalk to cross. Others at lunch argued with me saying they have to be in the crosswalk. So we asked our SRO, who is a county deputy. She said in CO if someone is standing at a crosswalk that does not have lights or a stop sign, drivers must stop even if the person has not entered the crosswalk yet. If a person is standing waiting to cross and you don't stop (given you can stop safely), you can be ticketed in CO. Our SRO said that we have so many drivers from states who don't have the same laws that we need to make sure the kids know that they shouldn't enter a crosswalk until an approaching car actually stops. Then tell the student to make eye contact with the driver as the enter the crosswalk so that they know the driver has seen them.

Bikes being ridden do not count as a pedestrian, but if you are walking with your bike then you are a pedestrian.

Having to be IN the crosswalk in order for cars to stop seems like a giant ol' game of chicken waiting to happen. Glad you got it clarified. I tell my kids the same thing, to make eye contact with the driver so they know they've been seen. Fortunately the one major road they have to cross for school is a four way stop but people still blow through it at times. I've seen cars going the opposite direction proceed with kids still crossing which is not legal here. They need to be clear of it. I don't understand why people are in such a hurry that they'd risk hitting a kid.

 

[bcla]

No gray area where we live. If a pedestrian is trying to cross, you HAVE to stop and let them cross. A driver does not legally have to right to pass through a cross walk if there is someone waiting to cross.

What state? The two laws I've seen in this topic (CA and IL) say that right of way is only established when stepping on the roadway, and suddenly walking or running onto the roadway isn't allowed.

I've seen plenty of people just standing on a corner or even next to a mid-block crosswalk chatting, then suddenly walking into the crosswalk with the head turned away from the road. That's basically what the "suddenly leave the curb" language is supposed to address.

 

[bcla]

Having to be IN the crosswalk in order for cars to stop seems like a giant ol' game of chicken waiting to happen. Glad you got it clarified. I tell my kids the same thing, to make eye contact with the driver so they know they've been seen. Fortunately the one major road they have to cross for school is a four way stop but people still blow through it at times. I've seen cars going the opposite direction proceed with kids still crossing which is not legal here. They need to be clear of it. I don't understand why people are in such a hurry that they'd risk hitting a kid.

Upon means on the roadway in the crosswalk. That's the gray area I mentioned. Someone could take a while to get off the curb, but a driver can only stop so quickly, even if already slowing down. It's certainly not a license for a pedestrian to get any driver to stop on the basis of one foot in the crosswalk when it's not practical to stop in time.

 

[MillauFr]

Upon means on the roadway in the crosswalk. That's the gray area I mentioned. Someone could take a while to get off the curb, but a driver can only stop so quickly, even if already slowing down. It's certainly not a license for a pedestrian to get any driver to stop on the basis of one foot in the crosswalk when it's not practical to stop in time.

Which is why the speed limit should be lower. Here they are lowering all of the speed limits where pedestrian can cross to 25mph. Now if they would just install speed enforcement cameras so people would take it seriously...

 

[wenrob]

Which is why the speed limit should be lower. Here they are lowering all of the speed limits where pedestrian can cross to 25mph. Now if they would just install speed enforcement cameras so people would take it seriously...

The road my kids cross is 30mph but people regularly blow down that road at 45mph. It's a main road but not a major road if that makes sense. It's two lanes, 75% stop signs vs lights but goes through a significant section of this part of the Valley so people take it instead of the major roads where you're allowed to do 45mph. They periodically set up speed traps and nail people left and right all day then it's back to business as usual with people blowing through there everyday. At the very least they need a school zone right there, a big majority of the kids who walk cross there.

 

[MillauFr]

The road my kids cross is 30mph but people regularly blow down that road at 45mph. It's a main road but not a major road if that makes sense. It's two lanes, 75% stop signs vs lights but goes through a significant section of this part of the Valley so people take it instead of the major roads where you're allowed to do 45mph. They periodically set up speed traps and nail people left and right all day then it's back to business as usual with people blowing through there everyday. At the very least they need a school zone right there, a big majority of the kids who walk cross there.

Sounds like they should install speed enforcement cameras and force people to slow down.

 

[wenrob]

Sounds like they should install speed enforcement cameras and force people to slow down.

That's the thing, there's nothing for them to install them on. It's 75% stop signs. I don't think they expected this part of the valley to grow as fast as it did. Stop signs were sufficient 10 years ago but not so much anymore. It takes years to get them.

 

[gotomu212]

You seem really focused on this being a 40/45 mph road, I live in a dense suburb and with the exception of pure residential streets, the speed limit is 40 or 45 mph and it's normal for people to need to stop at that speed (and honestly I don't notice anyone having a problem)-it's the same thing that happens when a stoplight turns on a road and we don't all crash into each other then.

We have the same pedestrian crosswalks you describe and the rule is that you must immediately stop as soon as the lights start flashing for the pedestrian just as you would a stoplight. You would also stop for any pedestrian in a crosswalk already if the crossing didn't have lights, but in the case you wouldn't have to stop just because one approached the corner. Most pedestrians (including myself) try to time it so there's a break in cars before we hit the button, but depending on traffic that's no always possible.

 

[MIGrandma]

I hate the signs saying cars must stop for people in the crosswalk. Whatever happened to people crossing on the corners, where there ARE stoplights and "Walk/Don't Walk" signs? Why do they have to cross in the middle of the street and be given special treatment by having all cars stop for them whenever they choose to cross? Cars driving on the street should have the right-of-way, not pedestrians. It just annoys the heck out of me.

There is one such sign (no lights) by the local college, I wish the college would just build a walk-over over the street. Problem solved. People in the cars wouldn't have to stop, or be hesitant and NOT stop, or wonder if they should, etc. And the college kids wouldn't have to worry about crossing and maybe a car wouldn't stop for them. Seems like that would be the best for everyone. And the safest.

There are a couple other such signs (again, no lights) on that same street (residential area, not college area) and I really have no idea why they are there. I rarely see anyone wanting to cross at either one. And the couple of times I have seen people waiting to cross (not actually IN the cross-walk but just waiting for traffic to clear so they can cross) cars don't bother to stop. And I've never seen anyone get pulled over by a cop for not stopping at any of the signs.

 

[bcla]

I hate the signs saying cars must stop for people in the crosswalk. Whatever happened to people crossing on the corners, where there ARE stoplights and "Walk/Don't Walk" signs? Why do they have to cross in the middle of the street and be given special treatment by having all cars stop for them whenever they choose to cross? Cars driving on the street should have the right-of-way, not pedestrians. It just annoys the heck out of me.

There is one such sign (no lights) by the local college, I wish the college would just build a walk-over over the street. Problem solved. People in the cars wouldn't have to stop, or be hesitant and NOT stop, or wonder if they should, etc. And the college kids wouldn't have to worry about crossing and maybe a car wouldn't stop for them. Seems like that would be the best for everyone. And the safest.

There are a couple other such signs (again, no lights) on that same street (residential area, not college area) and I really have no idea why they are there. I rarely see anyone wanting to cross at either one. And the couple of times I have seen people waiting to cross (not actually IN the cross-walk but just waiting for traffic to clear so they can cross) cars don't bother to stop. And I've never seen anyone get pulled over by a cop for not stopping at any of the signs.

Absent traffic signals, pedestrians always have right of way at crosswalks.

Don't know exactly where you are, but here's an example of a sting operation:

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2016/05/ann_arbor_trying_to_change_dri.html

 

[gotomu212]

I hate the signs saying cars must stop for people in the crosswalk. Whatever happened to people crossing on the corners, where there ARE stoplights and "Walk/Don't Walk" signs? Why do they have to cross in the middle of the street and be given special treatment by having all cars stop for them whenever they choose to cross? Cars driving on the street should have the right-of-way, not pedestrians. It just annoys the heck out of me.

There is one such sign (no lights) by the local college, I wish the college would just build a walk-over over the street. Problem solved. People in the cars wouldn't have to stop, or be hesitant and NOT stop, or wonder if they should, etc. And the college kids wouldn't have to worry about crossing and maybe a car wouldn't stop for them. Seems like that would be the best for everyone. And the safest.

There are a couple other such signs (again, no lights) on that same street (residential area, not college area) and I really have no idea why they are there. I rarely see anyone wanting to cross at either one. And the couple of times I have seen people waiting to cross (not actually IN the cross-walk but just waiting for traffic to clear so they can cross) cars don't bother to stop. And I've never seen anyone get pulled over by a cop for not stopping at any of the signs.

I don't know where you live but typically crosswalks are built where there's a logical need for people to cross and a full stoplight intersection is too far away. We have one by a park enterence; the closest stoplight is a half a mile both ways- no one should have to walk a mile out of their way to cross a street.

Pedestrians also get special preference because they need more time and are in more danger crossing. A bridge over a street is extremely expensive to build and maintain.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

You seem really focused on this being a 40/45 mph road, I live in a dense suburb and with the exception of pure residential streets, the speed limit is 40 or 45 mph and it's normal for people to need to stop at that speed (and honestly I don't notice anyone having a problem)-it's the same thing that happens when a stoplight turns on a road and we don't all crash into each other then.

We have the same pedestrian crosswalks you describe and the rule is that you must immediately stop as soon as the lights start flashing for the pedestrian just as you would a stoplight. You would also stop for any pedestrian in a crosswalk already if the crossing didn't have lights, but in the case you wouldn't have to stop just because one approached the corner. Most pedestrians (including myself) try to time it so there's a break in cars before we hit the button, but depending on traffic that's no always possible.

Sigh.

Not focused on the 40-45mph.

Focused on the 4 lane, 40-45 mph major thoroughfare with woods on both sides of the road for at least a mile each way with no sidewalks, sidestreets, intersections, or stoplights to indicate there MIGHT be a person in the area waiting to cross, where a random bikepath shoots of of the woods with approx 8 feet (some spots along the way with more clearance, some with trees/brush right up to the street) in a heavily populated suburb of the (3rd?) largest city in America.

It seems, to me, that people around here are less surprised to see a deer run out of the woods and into road in that area than they are to see a person.

it makes a difference in the awareness factor of needing to stop.

Luckily, the flashing lights help now. However, since it's a east/west road, I have noticed that in the morning and in the afternoon, the lights are very hard to see.

It's just not safe, all the way around, for either the drivers or the walkers/bikers. I've said that more than once.

 

[mjkacmom]

I don't know where you live but typically crosswalks are built where there's a logical need for people to cross and a full stoplight intersection is too far away. We have one by a park enterence; the closest stoplight is a half a mile both ways- no one should have to walk a mile out of their way to cross a street.

Pedestrians also get special preference because they need more time and are in more danger crossing. A bridge over a street is extremely expensive to build and maintain.

I live in a very densely populated area (28,000 in 3 miles), with small blocks, and the next stoplight might be a 10 minute walk down the road. There isn't even one across from the HS (although there is an officer there before and after school, and crosswalks).

 

[bcla]

I live in a very densely populated area (28,000 in 3 miles), with small blocks, and the next stoplight might be a 10 minute walk down the road. There isn't even one across from the HS (although there is an officer there before and after school, and crosswalks).

Are there stop signsat least at some of these intersections? That changes the dynamic, even though the pedestrian still has right of way. Everyone is preparing to stop by definition, while at a crosswalk without a stop sign there's often confusion. I've seen pedestrians get yelled at by drivers who didn't want to stop. I've seen one driver stop and the drivers behind slam on brakes. I've seen impatient drivers speed around a stopped car and nearly hit a pedestrian. Traffic laws are supposed to address these issues, but people are jerks.

 

[gotomu212]

Sigh.

Not focused on the 40-45mph.

Focused on the 4 lane, 40-45 mph major thoroughfare with woods on both sides of the road for at least a mile each way with no sidewalks, sidestreets, intersections, or stoplights to indicate there MIGHT be a person in the area waiting to cross, where a random bikepath shoots of of the woods with approx 8 feet (some spots along the way with more clearance, some with trees/brush right up to the street) in a heavily populated suburb of the (3rd?) largest city in America.

It seems, to me, that people around here are less surprised to see a deer run out of the woods and into road in that area than they are to see a person.

it makes a difference in the awareness factor of needing to stop.

Luckily, the flashing lights help now. However, since it's a east/west road, I have noticed that in the morning and in the afternoon, the lights are very hard to see.

It's just not safe, all the way around, for either the drivers or the walkers/bikers. I've said that more than once.

Sorry I didn't mean my post negatively, I was trying to say we have the same setup you described here and it seems to work (same speed, same 4 lanes, same flashing crosswalk, same kinda random out of the way place). I think some of your towns current issue might be because it's new. Ours has been there for awhile and everyone is more conscious of it.

Your situation sounds similar to the annual start of school when the police beef up the school zone crosswalks (which also has the flashers) to remind everyone hey summers over get used to the crosswalk again. Once a few weeks go by everyone's used to the crosswalk and not surprised when the flashers go off.

 

[kaytieeldr]

plus countless near misses

A near miss is a hit.

Strange that it has a yellow light instead of a red light. We have a crosswalk stoplight like that in my city, and the light blinks red, to indicate to drivers a need to stop. Your town's yellow light sounds confusing, and that confusion has likely contributed to the accidents you describe.

Agreed. Based on all the posts by the OP, it sounds like drivers need a command to stop, aka red light, be the mere suggestion provided by a flashing yellow.

 

[kaytieeldr]

cars have to yield to pedestrians who are ALREADY in the crosswalk on the side of the street you are on.

"In" the crosswalk means even at the entrance to it, where it meets the side of the road.

Right after the crosswalk, going west, the speed limit jumps to 45, which means that people coming east are going 45mph.

Well, no, they should be at the reduced posted speed of 40 (orless, but the definition of limit is best saved for another day.)

however, I also think that most people don't think that a car is going to come to a dead stop on a 40-45mph road to let someone cross.

Which is why your suburb found it necessary to install the walk light.

I think most people here tend to treat it like a sidestreet - you are going straight, and someone is at a stop sign perpendicular to you on their street

Then most people are wrong.

it just seems super unsafe for both the motorists AND the pedestrians to expect 4 lanes of traffic to stop so someone can cross when the pedestrians can wait until traffic is clear,

Based on your description of how busy the road is, that could be hours away.

I think another big problem is WHERE the crossing is at. Not for "should we stop or not" debates, but for pure visibility and awareness that it's there in the first place. It's not at an intersection, or a stoplight, or the end of the sidewalk

It is At. The. Jogging/bike path. It is exactly where it needs to b. And because said path meets and crosses the roadway, It IS an intersection.

It's just a bad, bad spot for pedestrians to cross altogether, and it definitely upsets the traffic flow

The traffic flow would be more upset about injured pedestrians

Focused on the 4 lane, 40-45 mph major thoroughfare with woods on both sides of the road for at least a mile each way with no sidewalks, sidestreets, intersections, or stoplights to indicate there MIGHT be a person in the area waiting to cross, where a random bikepath shoots of of the woods with approx 8 feet (some spots along the way with more clearance, some with trees/brush right up to the street) in a heavily populated suburb of the (3?) largest city in America

Then the approach needs more signage warning of the light/crosswalk.