Reporter and Camerman killed on air.

[pat fan]

IMO someone who repeatedly has trouble at one job setting after another, one entirely separate set of co workers to the next, yet never seems to entertain for a moment that perhaps the problem starts within himself and can manage to extrapolate those feelings into an entirely unrelated violent act and then claim that as a reason to ignite his fuse to undertake this violent act himself absolutely has some concerning psychological pathology going on. Whether or not he should be considered criminally culpable under the law wouldn't be my first concern at this point. I think the time and energy would be better spent in looking to improve mental health services so that as many people as possible don't get to this point. That could save and improve lives.

Absolutely! Have a mental problem does not equate abdicating responsibility. Now, something serious like schizophrenia with no meds is different. Having anger issues that counseling could help with or feeling that you are being discriminated against when you are not, while being a "mental" issue is no defense and indefensible. Heck, we all get stressed out and "irrational" at times and that does not give us the right to kill people.

 

[cabanafrau]

Tragedy after tragedy and we still won't talk about guns and mental illness. Everyone wants to talk about the crime but no one cares enough to change laws to try to fix this mess. Just idle gossip until the next one.

Maybe a better approach would be devoting the energy and resources to mental health services. Seems like a more positive approach to the situation that might actually result in a better way of life for countless people -- and save lives along the way.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

Maybe a better approach would be devoting the energy and resources to mental health services. Seems like a more positive approach to the situation that might actually result in a better way of life for countless people -- and save lives along the way.

Sure we need better mental health services although I'm not sure it would have helped in this case. There's nothing that I've read where this guy showed any such previous actions to warrant forced help. There are many other things that could be done but of course we aren't allowed to talk about them here.

 

[cabanafrau]

Absolutely! Have a mental problem does not equate abdicating responsibility. Now, something serious like schizophrenia with no meds is different. Having anger issues that counseling could help with or feeling that you are being discriminated against when you are not, while being a "mental" issue is no defense and indefensible. Heck, we all get stressed out and "irrational" at times and that does not give us the right to kill people.

There are indeed people with mental health issues that do not have the ability to form criminal intent who commit crimes. Those are the folks who need to be placed in protective custody in facilities to treat their mental issues as opposed to being incarcerated.

I believe the crime rate among those who are mired in untreated mental health issues that do not rise to the level of mental incompetence in regards to committing their crimes would drop significantly if mental health treatment were easier to obtain and more widely accepted as necessary medical treatment in our society. It's not simply these front page national hotbutton issues that would be affected by such a change IMO, but how much would drug abuse and the associated cycle of crimes drop if people weren't attempting to self medicate? How much less domestic violence would occur? How much less alcoholism and drunk driving? I think we're busily convincing ourselves guns are doing the killing while mental illness is ruining countless lives, largely unchecked and ignored in so many ways.

 

[Christine]

Maybe a better approach would be devoting the energy and resources to mental health services. Seems like a more positive approach to the situation that might actually result in a better way of life for countless people -- and save lives along the way.

I totally agree with you. Coworkers and I were having this conversation this morning. This guy who did the latest shooting...he's not unusual or rare or a fluke. I can stand right here and name at least five people over the years (that are still working) that have had issues with everyone they work with. They are usually difficult to deal with and just not right. And no one does anything. Most HR departments and managers are scared to handle it because they can make your work life a living hell. Everyone just looks the other way. And as long as that continues to happen, these people won't get the help they need.

 

[mnrose]

Maybe a better approach would be devoting the energy and resources to mental health services. Seems like a more positive approach to the situation that might actually result in a better way of life for countless people -- and save lives along the way.

Mental health services, like those for physical health, cost money, sometimes a LOT of money. And, if we think health insurance for physical health is a mess, well, compared to mental health it is a shiny diamond. It is very hard to find quality care, or sometimes any care at all. There is no question that insurance rates would rise if we adequately covered mental health. And, of course, I can hear the complaining about THAT already. We'd rather keep that money in our pockets, and then wring our hands in faux regret when things like this happen.

 

[cabanafrau]

Sure we need better mental health services although I'm not sure it would have helped in this case. There's nothing that I've read where this guy showed any such previous actions to warrant forced help. There are many other things that could be done but of course we aren't allowed to talk about them here.

Absolutely there are tremendous concerns about how such things would be implemented. In this particular case I'm wondering if family, friends, co workers communicating might not have been able to intervene with this guy, convince him to get some help, have that help be accessible and could have meant his victims would be alive, well and unknown to most of us today, going on with their promising lives.

 

[threecrazykids]

I think you're mixing the concepts mental illness and criminal responsibility. It is entirely possible to be both mentally ill and criminally responsible for one's actions.

IMO someone who repeatedly has trouble at one job setting after another, one entirely separate set of co workers to the next, yet never seems to entertain for a moment that perhaps the problem starts within himself and can manage to extrapolate those feelings into an entirely unrelated violent act and then claim that as a reason to ignite his fuse to undertake this violent act himself absolutely has some concerning psychological pathology going on. Whether or not he should be considered criminally culpable under the law wouldn't be my first concern at this point. I think the time and energy would be better spent in looking to improve mental health services so that as many people as possible don't get to this point. That could save and improve lives.

I agree 100% on people with mental illnesses being held responsible for their actions. I don't know a lot about intricate details of mental illness and how those people function (or don't function I guess, depending on how you look at it).

My question is where/how do we start? Even if all the funding in the world were available, with 100% backing by every state, mental institutions readily available etc...where would you even BEGIN to identify people who are "at risk" to commit a violent crime? Some of these people are what we would consider " a little off" or "very passionate" about specific issues, but is it enough to lock them up under the fear that it MAY HAPPEN? And who is going to contact authorities and tell them "hey...come get so and so...he's crazy" and they actually KEEP them there...for, what, life? Because if they are locked up for an amount of time who's to say they aren't building up the angst and plotting revenge every day they are in there? The odds of someone being held for life is slim to none.

And when these people plan on offing themselves when they commit these crimes there is no way to win this war. I refuse, 100% refuse to give all of these killers the label of mentally insane or mentally ill. I may be short sighted, ignorant, etc. but I believe that what we see a majority of the time is fueled by nothing less than pure revenge. It's their own self pity taking form in the most coward-like manner possible. People aren't necessarily crazy just because they kill someone - sheer hate can fuel the desire to kill, and until we are able to accept that, I'm not sure where the heck to even start to prevent something like this from happening.

 

[BostonJP]

Call me morbid but I've done a lot of reading about this sort of thing (I speak publicly about mitigating workplace violence and also grew up in a community where a mass shooting happened and was dissected by the global media). Regular, rational people do not commit violent acts of this magnitude - a few are schizophrenic but most are either clinical sociopaths, severely depressed, narcissistic, or a combination of other mental issues. They plan meticulously and carefully but also safely because they know that what they plan to do is abhorrent. The Columbine shooters, for example, didn't even purchase the guns themselves even though one of them was 18 years old at the time the guns were obtained.

When it's a cry for help, they get caught and they get the treatment they need. Unfortunately though, when it's a genuine plan for violence, that cry for help is never heard and the mental issues are rarely identified until it's too late. Sometimes hindsight is 20/20 and we can see where red flags went up but sometimes the red flags were nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[TAX GUY]

Sure we need better mental health services although I'm not sure it would have helped in this case. There's nothing that I've read where this guy showed any such previous actions to warrant forced help. There are many other things that could be done but of course we aren't allowed to talk about them here.

Must.....resist....urge.....to.......reply...

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

We're already spending the money. We're just spending it on the prisons we now use to house a large portion of the mentally ill that could be better served if we simply spent it on adequate care outside of those profitable prisons.

 

[cabanafrau]

Mental health services, like those for physical health, cost money, sometimes a LOT of money. And, if we think health insurance for physical health is a mess, well, compared to mental health it is a shiny diamond. It is very hard to find quality care, or sometimes any care at all.

That's part of my point. We need the care to be both more accessible -- and more acceptable to get. Mental illness and its treatment carries a stigma that needs to be stopped.

Will it be expensive? Absolutely. Is the carnage of unchecked mental illness expensive? Absolutely. Those expenses aren't all contained on spreadsheets either. Deciding to bite the bullet and seriously address mental health will more than likely have some correlation to the size of our incarcerated prison populations as well. I'm personally willing to take the chance on throwing the money at something designed to improve lives rather than incarcerate them and see if it makes a difference.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

Absolutely there are tremendous concerns about how such things would be implemented. In this particular case I'm wondering if family, friends, co workers communicating might not have been able to intervene with this guy, convince him to get some help, have that help be accessible and could have meant his victims would be alive, well and unknown to most of us today, going on with their promising lives.

I've dealt with a lot of mentally ill people. Your co workers are not in any position to try to 'convince' a mentally ill person to get help any more than HR. Ask anyone who has a mentally ill brother, father, mother or friend. Nor can you force a person to be committed who does not physically hurt themselves or others.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

That's part of my point. We need the care to be both more accessible -- and more acceptable to get. Mental illness and its treatment carries a stigma that needs to be stopped.

Will it be expensive? Absolutely. Is the carnage of unchecked mental illness expensive? Absolutely. Those expenses aren't all contained on spreadsheets either. Deciding to bite the bullet and seriously address mental health will more than likely have some correlation to the size of our incarcerated prison populations as well. I'm personally willing to take the chance on throwing the money at something designed to improve lives rather than incarcerate them and see if it makes a difference.

I most certainly share your opinion on this subject.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

That's part of my point. We need the care to be both more accessible -- and more acceptable to get. Mental illness and its treatment carries a stigma that needs to be stopped.

Will it be expensive? Absolutely. Is the carnage of unchecked mental illness expensive? Absolutely. Those expenses aren't all contained on spreadsheets either. Deciding to bite the bullet and seriously address mental health will more than likely have some correlation to the size of our incarcerated prison populations as well. I'm personally willing to take the chance on throwing the money at something designed to improve lives rather than incarcerate them and see if it makes a difference.

Mental illness is like cancer. You can spend a gazillion dollars fighting it but there is no magic pill or therapy that will help many of these people. Should they sit in jails? No. Should they be out with the general public? Not if they are dangerous.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

Mental illness is like cancer. You can spend a gazillion dollars fighting it but there is no magic pill or therapy that will help many of these people. Should they sit in jails? No. Should they be out with the general public? Not if they are dangerous.

I absolutely disagree with your opinion on this, but I doubt debating this will matter.

 

[TAX GUY]

I've dealt with a lot of mentally ill people. Your co workers are not in any position to try to 'convince' a mentally ill person to get help any more than HR. Ask anyone who has a mentally ill brother, father, mother or friend. Nor can you force a person to be committed who does not physically hurt themselves or others.

Absolutely true. Even with that said, your suggestions of changing laws (pretty sure you mean gun laws) still won't prevent crimes like this from happening. Even if side arms are banned or didn't exist, people in this state of mind (or however you want to label it) will find ways. Knife, bat, crow bar, rock, vehicle, pen...... we can't simply blame the instrument used.

 

[cabanafrau]

I agree 100% on people with mental illnesses being held responsible for their actions. I don't know a lot about intricate details of mental illness and how those people function (or don't function I guess, depending on how you look at it).

My question is where/how do we start? Even if all the funding in the world were available, with 100% backing by every state, mental institutions readily available etc...where would you even BEGIN to identify people who are "at risk" to commit a violent crime? Some of these people are what we would consider " a little off" or "very passionate" about specific issues, but is it enough to lock them up under the fear that it MAY HAPPEN? And who is going to contact authorities and tell them "hey...come get so and so...he's crazy" and they actually KEEP them there...for, what, life? Because if they are locked up for an amount of time who's to say they aren't building up the angst and plotting revenge every day they are in there? The odds of someone being held for life is slim to none.

And when these people plan on offing themselves when they commit these crimes there is no way to win this war. I refuse, 100% refuse to give all of these killers the label of mentally insane or mentally ill. I may be short sighted, ignorant, etc. but I believe that what we see a majority of the time is fueled by nothing less than pure revenge. It's their own self pity taking form in the most coward-like manner possible. People aren't necessarily crazy just because they kill someone - sheer hate can fuel the desire to kill, and until we are able to accept that, I'm not sure where the heck to even start to prevent something like this from happening.

It doesn't need to be about "hey, come and get so and so, he's crazy". Simply the idea that it's acceptable to recognize "this isn't working very well for me, I'm really feeling off" and to seek help as openly as you would for cancer or heart disease -- and expect those around you to say, "hope you get some good news from the doc, hope you're feeling better, how's it going", rather than fearing everyone side eyeing you and whispering about you and avoiding you like you've got the plague might go a long way towards more people seeking treatment as opposed to seeking alcohol or self medicating other ways.

As far as those who do need to be held against their will because they are genuinely a threat to themselves or others, it's very surprising what happens in those cases. I've seen quite a lot of it personally. In my experience a great many people who have decompensated and have family come into court to file for them to be picked up for mental health treatment respond amazingly quickly, amazingly quickly, and it's obvious they are ready to return home. More often than not those admitted for involuntary treatment respond almost immediately to hydration, nutrition and treatment with appropriate psychotropic meds. It's not to say it's uncommon for these folks to relapse, but generally their families and friends recognize and are quicker to intervene or come back to the court if necessary.

 

[BostonJP]

Absolutely true. Even with that said, your suggestions of changing laws (pretty sure you mean gun laws) still won't prevent crimes like this from happening. Even if side arms are banned or didn't exist, people in this state of mind (or however you want to label it) will find ways. Knife, bat, crow bar, rock, vehicle, pen...... we can't simply blame the instrument used.

QFT. The media bestows huge rewards upon the most violent people in our culture, and as a result it is a culture of violence. A couple laws aren't going to change that. American culture needs to be changed. The 24 hour news cycle, mental health, firearms, are each only a small part of the solution.

(By the way I would be lying if I said I had any idea whatsoever what the solution is).

 

[cabanafrau]

I've dealt with a lot of mentally ill people. Your co workers are not in any position to try to 'convince' a mentally ill person to get help any more than HR. Ask anyone who has a mentally ill brother, father, mother or friend. Nor can you force a person to be committed who does not physically hurt themselves or others.

I think I'm familiar with the concepts of personal liberty and what's statutorily necessary for involuntary confinement for mental health treatment, but thank you all the same.