Recession on the loom

[dvcgirl]

On that point, we agree.

Free our businesses from the out of control regulations. Maybe then some of those businesses will come back to the USA.

We need to stop the outrageous spending. Just stop it.

Stop being the world police.

Additionally, you can't levy heavy taxes on the rich without ramifications. There will be an exodus of the rich to countries that don't have penalties for success. The rich provide jobs by way of consumerism.

More money isn't the answer. The stimulus packages didn't work. That's one thing that keeps coming up with expectations that it will work after failing miserably.

Who said anything about stimulus. We're going to need to raise taxes *and* cut spending. No new spending programs.

And you say, stop being the world police. But that means cutting the military.

And that's another thing about this country. The same people who are upset about their taxes being raises (even when they fall far below the income where their taxes would be raised) are adamant about not touching three things. The military, Social Security and Medicare.

Well guess what.....those three items comprise a full 2/3 of the federal budget. They all need to be cut. I've seen so many threads on government waste, and yes, we should cut where we can. But what politicians on both sides of the aisle do is distract the voting public with ridiculous budgetary cuts like....Nasa, or Head Start, or food stamps.....those items are so incredibly small.

But that's what people focus on. And it's done to distract us from the real issues, because no politician will want to vote to cut the military, SS or medicare. Why? Because the second they get into office the number one priority is getting re-elected.

As for the rich providing jobs through consumerism....yes, they do. But what kinds of jobs are they providing? Service sector jobs for the most part. And the very wealthy can't even come close to spending enough to keep the economy humming along. And the very wealthy follow the money. Right now the biggest returns are in emerging markets, and that's where a lot of their investment dollars are going right now.

 

[Oglet]

Here is my own situation/views on the class warfare situation. Our family is considered "middle class". Yes, I have been unemployed for 15 months now. But, my DH is retired and we have his pension and social security for income which puts us in the middle class bracket. We do not qualify for any "social" programs which are supposed to aid people who are unemployed such as myself. It really irritates me that when I buy groceries and I am buying cheap chicken, no-name brands, etc., that the person considered "poor" ahead of me in line is buying steak and other luxury foods with their food stamps that I as a middle class person cannot afford. I also do not qualify for HEAP, rental subsidy, free higher education, free health care (Medicaid), income tax refunds,free cell phone service, etc. because of my middle class status, even though we have a lower standard of living than those considered "poor". We also bought our house in the 1980's, when the interest rate on a mortgage was 10%. We managed to pay it off without any help by having our interest rate reduced, amount owed reduced, assistance with a deposit, etc. It seems that in this society, the more well-off are in the "poor" income bracket while the middle class is being shafted. JMHO

You make some very good points. I will say well done to you and I mean that with all sincerity, It's people like you that are what I would consider the backbone of our country.

My wife is originally from West Virginia so I base my comments on observations from when we lived there and in no way indicate that WV is a typical example, however.

Many very low income people get Food Stamps, my SIL gets almost $800 a month in Food Stamps alone, she also gets clothing vouchers for her children when school time come around, they also qualify for WIC, Medicaid, Free Cell service, free school lunch, lives in hud housing paying $0 a month in rent and to top it all off she gets a check each month from the state, oh yeah there is some program called LEAP that pays x amount on her electric bill once or twice a year.

She does not wan't to work, she says that if she gets a job she will have her Food Stamps reduced, have to pay rent as its income based and might lose her medicaid from the state.

I understand needing to help those less fortunate but this woman is living better than I do, eats better than I do and has far less stress than I do.

I would imagine she is not the only one in this situation, hundreds of thousands of people if not millions are probably doing something very similar to her.

You know I might struggle to pay rent, buy food and put gas in my car but at least I can do it with pride. You can hold your head high and know that although there are others doing better than you, your at least doing it on your own with dignity.

 

[undertheradar]

Looking at the situation from a CA viewpoint, we must first eliminate retiree pensions. Our state is a wreck due to the outrageous sums of money being paid to retirees. Not all, mostly managers and above, emergency services, etc. We are being forced to lower spending for current programs to refund the loses that the pension investments suffered. All of our governement retirees should be given the same dollar award that social security offers, not lifetime salaries like our current retirees are receiving. Want to see Washington get busy and fix things, set the retirement age for ALL government workers to match whatever age Congress ties retirement age for Social Security to. We have the fortune in our state to be paying retired local government managers over $200,000.00 per year. With fewer workers paying taxes, there is no possible way to sustain these obscene pensions.

 

[Colleen27]

Here is my own situation/views on the class warfare situation. Our family is considered "middle class". Yes, I have been unemployed for 15 months now. But, my DH is retired and we have his pension and social security for income which puts us in the middle class bracket. We do not qualify for any "social" programs which are supposed to aid people who are unemployed such as myself. It really irritates me that when I buy groceries and I am buying cheap chicken, no-name brands, etc., that the person considered "poor" ahead of me in line is buying steak and other luxury foods with their food stamps that I as a middle class person cannot afford. I also do not qualify for HEAP, rental subsidy, free higher education, free health care (Medicaid), income tax refunds,free cell phone service, etc. because of my middle class status, even though we have a lower standard of living than those considered "poor". We also bought our house in the 1980's, when the interest rate on a mortgage was 10%. We managed to pay it off without any help by having our interest rate reduced, amount owed reduced, assistance with a deposit, etc. It seems that in this society, the more well-off are in the "poor" income bracket while the middle class is being shafted. JMHO

A lot of those things are misconceptions, though. The maximum food stamp allowance for my family size (5) is less than I spend in a month on groceries - some folks fall into the terrible habit of living it up early in the month and relying on food banks when the money runs out but most have to watch their pennies to make the allowance last. Rental subsidies have years-long waiting lists and strict rules that make it hard for families to find suitable units (no more than two kids to a bedroom, only if they're the same gender and within a certain number of years in age, no one can sleep on the couch, in a basement, etc to stretch the space). Medicaid doesn't exist for healthy adults, only for children and the disabled (this varies by state), so most poor adults go without medical care if their jobs don't provide affordable insurance. Heating assistance starts their fiscal year in Oct and usually runs out of funding by Jan or Feb with months of winter still ahead.

It is easy to be envious over the perception that people who aren't working for their living have more than you, but often perceptions aren't in line with reality. I've known enough families who ended up on assistance to know what a miserable life it is - about $300/mo in cash, $700 in food stamps, and free health care for the kids. Without subsidized rent, which most don't get, there's no conceivable way to keep a roof over one's head, the utilities turned on, and provide even a very basic standard of living on that.

 

[dvcgirl]

You make some very good points. I will say well done to you and I mean that with all sincerity, It's people like you that are what I would consider the backbone of our country.

My wife is originally from West Virginia so I base my comments on observations from when we lived there and in no way indicate that WV is a typical example, however.

Many very low income people get Food Stamps, my SIL gets almost $800 a month in Food Stamps alone, she also gets clothing vouchers for her children when school time come around, they also qualify for WIC, Medicaid, Free Cell service, free school lunch, lives in hud housing paying $0 a month in rent and to top it all off she gets a check each month from the state, oh yeah there is some program called LEAP that pays x amount on her electric bill once or twice a year.

She does not wan't to work, she says that if she gets a job she will have her Food Stamps reduced, have to pay rent as its income based and might lose her medicaid from the state.

I understand needing to help those less fortunate but this woman is living better than I do, eats better than I do and has far less stress than I do.

I would imagine she is not the only one in this situation, hundreds of thousands of people if not millions are probably doing something very similar to her.

You know I might struggle to pay rent, buy food and put gas in my car but at least I can do it with pride. You can hold your head high and know that although there are others doing better than you, your at least doing it on your own with dignity.

Well, I think your sister and the person buying steak with food stamps are in the minority.

I always think of it this way....would I rather be me...working hard, earning a good income and enjoying a high standard of living under my own steam....or them, sucking off the government?

I'd rather be me. I feel sorry for those kind of people because it's a pathetic existence. Not for those who truly need the help, but those who scam the system.

 

[crisi]

Average food stamp benefit by state.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparetable.jsp?cat=1&ind=26

From $3.88 on average per person per day in Wisconsin to $7.20 per person per day in Hawaii.

If you are managing to eat steak on food stamps, it is only because you are eating oatmeal and rice the rest of the week.

 

[Oglet]

Average food stamp benefit by state.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparetable.jsp?cat=1&ind=26

From $3.88 on average per person per day in Wisconsin to $7.20 per person per day in Hawaii.

If you are managing to eat steak on food stamps, it is only because you are eating oatmeal and rice the rest of the week.

For a single person.

If you have a family of 4 or 5 your turning that 3.88 into $15 + dollars a day min. Throw in some free school lunch and buying larger quantities of items and it would be easy to buy steak and still eat decent.

 

[ilovemk76]

Average food stamp benefit by state.

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparetable.jsp?cat=1&ind=26

From $3.88 on average per person per day in Wisconsin to $7.20 per person per day in Hawaii.

If you are managing to eat steak on food stamps, it is only because you are eating oatmeal and rice the rest of the week.

If there are school age children then they could be getting free breakfast and lunch 5 times a week. Add in that some schools send the kids home with a backpack of food and visiting food banks for basics and one can eat steak on SNAP.

 

[crisi]

If there are school age children then they could be getting free breakfast and lunch 5 times a week. Add in that some schools send the kids home with a backpack of food and visiting food banks for basics and one can eat steak on SNAP.

And some food banks have no food to hand out and some schools don't send food home. And that is average - some people will get less than that and others will get more.

If you don't like the idea of people being able to supplement their SNAP benefits through a food bank, don't donate to a food bank and that way you won't enable that behavior - that seems like a pretty simple solution. For those that do, they feel that SNAP isn't sufficient and that maybe people might benefit from having a good cut of meat once in a while.

 

[dvcgirl]

As to how we *really* get out of this mess we're in, I think that the Simpson Bowles plan from the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility really would take us in the right direction. I hope that this "super committee" takes a really good look at that plan. If we don't start taking some of these steps, we're jeopardizing the future of this nation more than we already have to date with our foolish policies and spendthrift ways.

For those who haven't seen their recommendations....here they are. There's something in here for everyone....it will affect us all. Some of us (myself included), much more than others. But I for one would like to see my niece and nephews at least have a shot at a decent life.




On November 10 Commission co-chairs Simpson and Bowles released a draft proposal for consideration by other commission members. The proposal presented five "steps"

1.) $200 billion reduction in discretionary spending[13] with proposed cuts including reducing defense procurement by 15% and closing one third of overseas bases, eliminating earmarks, and cutting the federal work force by 10%.

2.) $100 billion in increased tax revenues through various tax reform proposals,[13] such as introducing a 15 cent per gallon gasoline tax and eliminating or restricting a variety of tax deductions such as the home mortgage interest deduction and the deduction for employer-provided healthcare benefits.

3.) Controlling health care costs by maintaining the Medicare cost controls associated with the recent health care reform legislaton,[13] in addition to considering a public option and a further increase in the authority of Independent Payment Advisory Board.

4.) A reduction in entitlements, including farm subsidies, civilian and military federal pensions and student loan subsidies.[13][14]

5.) Modifications to the Social Security program to raise the payroll tax and the retirement age.[13

 

[barbarabini]

The real delusion is that many Americans still consider themselves middle class. At best, they are working poor. Look at what you make, then compare that to the top 1%. Hell, in that comparison, even the top 5% doesn't quite make it to middle class.

The erosion of the a true, confident middle class is really the political and economic problem. Democracies don't survive without a strong middle class. Most democracies don't survive at all.

Most of the middle class is much closer to those receiving welfare than those in the top %ages. The middle class have a lot more in common economically, and ultimately politically than the top 1%. The smoke and mirrors that the politicians and the top 1% are trying their damndest to prevent a literate, learned middle class from finding this out for themselves. I certainly think their is class warfare going on and I hope that the "middle class" is up to the challenge.


Also, I there has been a downgrade in our education as compared to other nations. I tend not to think this was a government mistake. Governments tend not to like their electorate literate.

 

[Oglet]

Also, I there has been a downgrade in our education as compared to other nations. I tend not to think this was a government mistake. Governments tend not to like their electorate literate.

While the cost to get such education continues to skyrocket.

 

[blondietink]

Well, using the calculations, IF I was approved for food stamps in NYS, for our family of 4 we would receive over $600.00 per month in food stamps. Currently, our grocery bill, buying cheap things again like chicken, no-name brands, buying in bulk, etc. I spend roughly $400.00 per month. I could buy a lot of steak for the extra $200.00.

 

[Oglet]

Well, using the calculations, IF I was approved for food stamps in NYS, for our family of 4 we would receive over $600.00 per month in food stamps. Currently, our grocery bill, buying cheap things again like chicken, no-name brands, buying in bulk, etc. I spend roughly $400.00 per month. I could buy a lot of steak for the extra $200.00.

Maybe some Filet Mignon

 

[Juliet25]

Class warfare...that's a joke. For the past 30 years or so, there has been a war and the working class has been losing.

Exactly. There's so much irony in that ditto head talking point. The strip mining of wealth from the middle class has been tolerated for way too long. Now that people are starting to say, "Hey, wait a minute...," it's suddenly class warfare.

 

[nunzia]

Germany is a nice model for a lot of things (and a terrible model for others - they haven't handled their immigrant issues any better than we have). They do have intergenerational households. A friend lives in the home her family has had for four hundred years. The family also owns an apartment in the city. At any given time, three (sometimes four) generations are living in these two homes in whatever configuration works best for the family. Family size is small - one or maybe two children. No car - trains in Germany are excellent still, and you walk or bike or bus where the train won't get you.

They took a hit integrating East Germany, and that hasn't worked its way through completely yet, but they pulled together.

True..and just a little antecdote. We have a fairly large German population here (Air Force training wing)..they LOVE it here..one thing that struck me was how amazed they are that we have CLOSETS..big roomy closets..they are just thrilled..I guess in Germany taxes are pretty high, and closets are taxed as if they are a room, so people have furniture like wardrobes instead of being taxed on an extra 'room' for their clothes..yes, they seem to have done better than many..but hey..didn't the US (and USSR if we are being fair) pretty much put that country back together again only 65 years ago?

 

[nunzia]

I agree. I think particularly through this financial crisis it has become very clear that govt is no longer working for the people. They're working for reelection, ideology, campaign donations, you name it but not for the long-term good of the nation as a whole.

We CANNOT continue to borrow to support policies of low tax rates and indirect subsidies to businesses which serve only to concentrate wealth in the hands of the few, and for the life of me I cannot understand how the "Atlas Shrugged" rhetoric has gained such momentum in the current economic environment when our own history shows much more stability, more sustainable/even growth, and an economy that was much more beneficial to the entire nation rather than just to a select few. We're a consumer based economy. That means we need consumers, and 20 households earning 50K/year generate far more economic activity than one household earning 1M/year. That's an inescapable fact and one that our "leaders" seem determined to bury their heads in the sand and ignore.

I think the Atlas Shrugged rhetoric is valuable..what happened in the book is happening on a certain scale here and it all goes to the take take take from whom you think has so much metality, which is rampant, not realizing how much society as a whole gets from 'them'...it also shows very clearly what constant and ridiculous government interference does to us all..everyone can look at that and see what a mess things are because government tries to 'help'..their 'helping just means they want all the power to control.
I do agree the tax system needs fixed, but really..can we trust the creators of the system to fix it? I'd go for a flat tax at this point as a reset button. No deductions, no loopholes.

 

[nunzia]

As to how we *really* get out of this mess we're in, I think that the Simpson Bowles plan from the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility really would take us in the right direction. I hope that this "super committee" takes a really good look at that plan. If we don't start taking some of these steps, we're jeopardizing the future of this nation more than we already have to date with our foolish policies and spendthrift ways.

For those who haven't seen their recommendations....here they are. There's something in here for everyone....it will affect us all. Some of us (myself included), much more than others. But I for one would like to see my niece and nephews at least have a shot at a decent life.




On November 10 Commission co-chairs Simpson and Bowles released a draft proposal for consideration by other commission members. The proposal presented five "steps"

1.) $200 billion reduction in discretionary spending[13] with proposed cuts including reducing defense procurement by 15% and closing one third of overseas bases, eliminating earmarks, and cutting the federal work force by 10%.

2.) $100 billion in increased tax revenues through various tax reform proposals,[13] such as introducing a 15 cent per gallon gasoline tax and eliminating or restricting a variety of tax deductions such as the home mortgage interest deduction and the deduction for employer-provided healthcare benefits.

3.) Controlling health care costs by maintaining the Medicare cost controls associated with the recent health care reform legislaton,[13] in addition to considering a public option and a further increase in the authority of Independent Payment Advisory Board.

4.) A reduction in entitlements, including farm subsidies, civilian and military federal pensions and student loan subsidies.[13][14]

5.) Modifications to the Social Security program to raise the payroll tax and the retirement age.[13

sounds reasonable..IF they would put the extra money into paying off debt and not go crazy giddy with more pork. Now THAT's what we need goverment regulations on...government..

 

[Oglet]

Problem is they will agree to cut 100 million from something but spend 100 million to get it passed

 

[dvcgirl]

True..and just a little antecdote. We have a fairly large German population here (Air Force training wing)..they LOVE it here..one thing that struck me was how amazed they are that we have CLOSETS..big roomy closets..they are just thrilled..I guess in Germany taxes are pretty high, and closets are taxed as if they are a room, so people have furniture like wardrobes instead of being taxed on an extra 'room' for their clothes..yes, they seem to have done better than many..but hey..didn't the US (and USSR if we are being fair) pretty much put that country back together again only 65 years ago?

Well, I think that most Europeans are tired of hearing the old "hey, if it wasn't for *US*....you guys wouldn't even be here!!" I mean, it happened 65 years ago. Yes, we as a nation made the ultimate sacrifice by sending our men and women into battle to essentially save the world.

But I think we can kind of let that go now. I think it's really important to look at other nations to see what they may be doing differently to get ideas what could work for us.

The potential for things to get so much worse is very, very high. Honestly, I think we've got a tough road ahead of us no matter what. We're all going to have to make sacrifices.

A lot of Americans are going to look back at the mid-90s through the 2000s as "the good ole days". Even if those days were completely subsidized by credit...at least they had access to it, and were able to increase their standard of living. For that group, things will be tougher. And because they aren't able to participate at that level, things are going to be tougher for the rest of us. It's as simple as that.