Recession on the loom

[dvcgirl]

sounds reasonable..IF they would put the extra money into paying off debt and not go crazy giddy with more pork. Now THAT's what we need goverment regulations on...government..

We need term limits, much tougher restrictions on lobbying, and we need a balanced budget law. Those three things would go a very long way.

 

[Oglet]

And then there is this depressing graph

This shows mandated leave, the US does not mandate that a company give paid vacation time to its workers.

 

[MrsPete]

But the world has changed since then. One of the big worries that I see coming is that we are already in a position where 1/3 of the population cannot afford health insurance (uninsured + medicaid + medicare) and that number grows every year. No amount of frugality is going to free up the $10K+ that a health insurance policy costs these days as more and more families find themselves living on minimum wage. When DH was a kid and his family was broke they bartered with the doctor for his services; now that same office won't even take uninsured patients.

And back then families didn't have to deal with the spectre of CPS involvement based on living arrangements, or code requirements limiting their ability to share smaller dwellings. Even growing your own food isn't the option it once was. My grandmother grew a huge garden, fully half of her backyard, and kept hens for eggs; my mother lives in that same community and has to abide by rules limiting food gardens to 1% of the total lot size and of course "livestock" is forbidden. Going back to the way things were only works if the rest of the world turns back the clock, and that's not going to happen. That's the big challenge facing American families now - how to somehow live like our Depression-era grandparents in this modern environment of rules and bureaucracies.

I can't, I can't, I can't. I suspect people'll have to stop saying that to get by in future years.

A great number of us can do at least some of these things: I live in a neighborhood, and I could have about 1/3 an acre of garden (if I didn't have a black thumb) without using any of my front yard or sacraficing my whole backyard. Also, it's legal in many places to have up to 5 chickens on a city lot. Even if those things DON'T work for you personally, you can use dozens of other depression-era ideas to stretch a dollar. Combined housing, getting rid of a car, shopping for used items -- all these are depression-ideas that are very do-able.

I agree with Mrs. Pete, but this is an excellent point. Healthcare is the achilles heel for many Americans, even those who are insured. One serious illness....with an 80/20 plan, and that 20% can wipe a family's savings out.

Yes, I think even people who have their financial act together are concerned about health care -- and what can a person really do about it? Nothing. I had outpatient surgery two months ago, and between the hospital, the surgeon, the anethesia, it cost more than I bring home in a year. And while I know dozens of ways to lower my food bill, I know no ways whatsoever to lower that bill.

"The United States Postal Service has long lived on the financial edge, but it has never been as close to the precipice as it is today: the agency is so low on cash that it will not be able to make a $5.5 billion payment due this month and may have to shut down entirely this winter unless Congress takes emergency action to stabilize its finances...".

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/05/b...uggles-to-stay-solvent-and-relevant.html?_r=1

My husband and I were talking about this the other day. We agree that we'd be fine with seeing the Post Office reduce service considerably -- even to the point of delivering mail only once a week.

The sky is not falling, but we are in for a long, difficult adjustment.

Agreed, and the people who'll suffer least are those of us who "see it coming" and look for ways to adjust.

So, along that line of thought, what are y'all personally doing? I have to go cook dinner and can't answer right now, but I'll come back later.

 

[crisi]

Well, I think that most Europeans are tired of hearing the old "hey, if it wasn't for *US*....you guys wouldn't even be here!!" I mean, it happened 65 years ago. Yes, we as a nation made the ultimate sacrifice by sending our men and women into battle to essentially save the world.

But I think we can kind of let that go now. I think it's really important to look at other nations to see what they may be doing differently to get ideas what could work for us.

The potential for things to get so much worse is very, very high. Honestly, I think we've got a tough road ahead of us no matter what. We're all going to have to make sacrifices.

A lot of Americans are going to look back at the mid-90s through the 2000s as "the good ole days". Even if those days were completely subsidized by credit...at least they had access to it, and were able to increase their standard of living. For that group, things will be tougher. And because they aren't able to participate at that level, things are going to be tougher for the rest of us. It's as simple as that.

We didn't sacrifice much at all compared to Britain or Canada or China or Korea or the Soviets. Or what occupied Europe sacrificed. And we were rewarded handsomely for it. Much of the money was paid back to us and without an manufacturing infrastructure left in much of the world, we were able to usher in the prosperity of the 1950s.

 

[ilovemk76]

We didn't sacrifice much at all compared to Britain or Canada or China or Korea or the Soviets. Or what occupied Europe sacrificed. And we were rewarded handsomely for it. Much of the money was paid back to us and without an manufacturing infrastructure left in much of the world, we were able to usher in the prosperity of the 1950s.

We reaped the rewards and had a huge amount of American's working in manufacturing.

At that time we had the best infrastructure to manufacture for the world. We had plants in tact that were making war items converted back. In many parts of the world the factories were destroyed.

Now we are seeing those jobs leave and we are in an uproar. They are leaving because others have factories, better laws to encourage factories to relocate and cheaper labor.

We are also confused in this country of what is skilled labor. The person who keeps the machines and robots in the factory working are skilled labor. The person pressing a button or putting material on or off the line is not skilled labor.

 

[mpls_mm]

On that point, we agree.

Free our businesses from the out of control regulations. Maybe then some of those businesses will come back to the USA.

We need to stop the outrageous spending. Just stop it.

Stop being the world police.

Additionally, you can't levy heavy taxes on the rich without ramifications. There will be an exodus of the rich to countries that don't have penalties for success. The rich provide jobs by way of consumerism.

More money isn't the answer. The stimulus packages didn't work. That's one thing that keeps coming up with expectations that it will work after failing miserably.

I would love to pay my employees $20 an hour, as a matter of fact, for my employees to make $13 an hour, I pay over $20 per hour after social security, taxes, Ia with-holding, unemployment etc. I pay roughly $8 an hour in taxes and deductions, my employees pay even more with-holding and taxes so they can actually bring home $8 or $9 an hour. On top of that I have to pay workmans comp and business insurance. We don't get any breaks for anything, if you play by the rules and do everything right you end up with less than those who skirt the laws. It makes it so hard to increase what we already do. We have put off hiring more people.

 

[MrsPete]

And of course, there's the taxation in Germany vs. the U.S. The median personal income tax is much, much higher. They're over 50% whereas we're at 28%.

In all fairness, a person who's paying 28% federal income tax is ALSO paying a good percentage to the state and perhaps also a city AND sales tax on everything he buys AND a large gas tax -- and those are just the everyday taxes.

Also that old argument that people make that Warren Buffet's secretary pays more taxes than he does (many people quote that too, incorrectly). She may pay a higher rate, but certainly not more taxes. And I understand that Buffet is a bit behind in his tax burden.

Yeah, but the thing is that a large portion of Americans just don't understand percentages, and that's why people can't grasp the whole story. People who don't "get" percentages don't understand that "paying more" can mean two different things.

I agree. I think particularly through this financial crisis it has become very clear that govt is no longer working for the people. They're working for reelection, ideology, campaign donations, you name it but not for the long-term good of the nation as a whole.

I totally agree that our government is not working. It's all about parties. How can each politician further his party's agenda, work for re-election, etc.? The people don't come into the equation at all. That's why I despise both the Republicans and the Democrats.

We need term limits, much tougher restrictions on lobbying, and we need a balanced budget law. Those three things would go a very long way.

Throw in one more: Tie Congress' pay and benefits to America's economic success. If middle-America suffers, let them suffer too. It'll provide them a bit of incentive to consider us every once in a while.

.Agreed, and the people who'll suffer least are those of us who "see it coming" and look for ways to adjust.

So, along that line of thought, what are y'all personally doing? I have to go cook dinner and can't answer right now, but I'll come back later.

Coming back to answer my own question: We can discuss taxes, etc. all day long, but we can't do much about it. So what are YOU PERSONALLY doing to set your family up for success in the "new normal" economy? Here are some things we're doing:

- We've chosen to live frugally -- less house, fewer consumer goods, economy cars, no debt -- so that if our income is cut, we may not be happy about it, but we won't suffer.
- We have sought out a variety of non-grocery store food sources (farmer's market, co-op, salvage stores), which allow us to eat well for less.
- I can do many things that're considered old-fashioned these days: Mend clothing, bake bread, make butter, etc. We've taught our children to do some of these things too. I am horrible at growing vegetables, but I have fruit trees and blueberry bushes. I can preserve food (canning, dehydration, freezing).
- We're already skilled in buying used items, and our children have grown up without prejudice against used clothes, etc.
- I'm interested in getting a couple chickens, and I have a plan to turn my girls' old playhouse into a small chickenhouse . . . but my husband isn't on board. Still, if we were pushed financially, we could make this happen for only a few dollars -- and once we had it set up, 3-5 chickens would keep us in omlets with very little effort and cost.
- We have saved for our children's educations so they can graduate without debt. Also, we're perfectly willing for them to come back to live with us after graduation -- we just hope that'll be a choice, not a necessity. Once they're out of school, we plan to build a retirement home for ourselves, and our house plans are designed to accomodate adult children/1-2 grandchildren comfortably, which might be useful to them OR to us in our old age. Also, the space above the garage could be turned into an apartment.
- If our children live near us as adults, we are very willing to give them the same deal one of our relatives gave us: Free child care, provided they pay into a college savings account what they would've paid for day care.

 

[KathyTX]

We're not having political discussions here anymore... this one's closed.