"RapidFill" RFID mugs getting rolled out...

[FireDancer]

Every system designed to stop abuse/theft/gaming is going to also impact some legitimate users. It is basically security friendly fire. I'm the Information Systems Coordinator at a financial institution. Every single security measure we put in place to stop some form of fraud also inconveniences some legitimate customers.

Just as we always look at the reduction in fraudulent losses and weigh them against the impact on customers I'm sure Disney did the same. Their conclusion had to have been the cost of the system and impact to guests who aren't stealing drinks was not more than the losses the system is designed to prevent. Believe me, we'd much rather not have to participate in this arms race against scammers and thieves. They are the ones who necessitate these measures, not the companies who implement them.

It is what it is. The weeping and gnashing of teeth over not getting to drink crappy soda at a rate of more than a cup every 5 minutes is a bit over the top.

Personally I think the five minute limit is very reasonable as the average guest will most likely fill it once they have their meal sit down and eat it and then maybe go back for another drink after they have finished. Usually what I do when I've been at a resort I would garb some coffee in the morning even if I wasn't getting breakfast at the resort and drink it on my way to where ever I was going and then if I come back alter for a break or to change I'd stop by the food court on my way to my room. Later in the day if it was still open I'd stop by for something on the way back to my room at the end of the day.

Yep. You have just laid out the normal use of a refillable mug. I'd bet most guests grab a drink with their meal or on the way to or from somewhere making the 5 minute lockout perfectly reasonable. I suspect the majority of guests don't chug down a pop and then immediately need a refill. These systems are designed around normal use cases, not outliers.

 

[Tekneek]

Yep. You have just laid out the normal use of a refillable mug. I'd bet most guests grab a drink with their meal or on the way to or from somewhere making the 5 minute lockout perfectly reasonable. I suspect the majority of guests don't chug down a pop and then immediately need a refill. These systems are designed around normal use cases, not outliers.

And the majority of broadband customers barely use 50 GB a month, too, so guess we need 55 GB bandwidth caps too.

I find it difficult to believe that any study revealed that 5 minutes was the precise time that scammers were deterred. Much more likely that they had decided they wanted some time to put there and 5 was an easy number to put into the system. Are the scammers going to steal at 4, but not 5? They'll steal at 3, but not 5? Any sort of timeout would deter them. It is the existence of the timeout that deters them, not the length of time, and having it be unique based on behavior associated with a particular RFID would be far more effective.

You're not really suggesting that all anti-fraud measures employed by banks are one-size-fits-all absolutes, are you? If so, I can tell you that your situation is fairly unique in that regard. There is much more to be learned from behavioral analysis of financial transactions than hard rules that apply to every single transaction equally.

 

[Jubilee]

This is a pain in the butt. My kid wants to try powerade and I get a sip for her to taste, and she doesn't like it, then we have to call over a CM to express that and allow us to get something else? Ugh. Good thing, for the most part, we only drink water in our family.

 

[smitch425]

This is a pain in the butt. My kid wants to try powerade and I get a sip for her to taste, and she doesn't like it, then we have to call over a CM to express that and allow us to get something else? Ugh. Good thing, for the most part, we only drink water in our family.

All you need to do in that situation is put a tiny amount of Powerade in the mug, have her taste it, and then fill it up with whatever she would like. The mugs are volume based, so it counts the number of ounces that have been filled and allows for people to mix drinks. Another option is to have her try it at home first.

 

[FireDancer]

And the majority of broadband customers barely use 50 GB a month, too, so guess we need 55 GB bandwidth caps too.

I find it difficult to believe that any study revealed that 5 minutes was the precise time that scammers were deterred. Much more likely that they had decided they wanted some time to put there and 5 was an easy number to put into the system. Are the scammers going to steal at 4, but not 5? They'll steal at 3, but not 5? Any sort of timeout would deter them. It is the existence of the timeout that deters them, not the length of time, and having it be unique based on behavior associated with a particular RFID would be far more effective.

You're not really suggesting that all anti-fraud measures employed by banks are one-size-fits-all absolutes, are you? If so, I can tell you that your situation is fairly unique in that regard. There is much more to be learned from behavioral analysis of financial transactions than hard rules that apply to every single transaction equally.

I wasn't on the project so I don't know but I'm sure that number came from somewhere.

Building behavior metrics into this system would be a waste of time and money. Sometimes you just need a rowboat, not the ark. An RFID system that is designed to limit the theft of a beverage doesn't have to have the same level of intelligence as one used to enforce customs rules on container ships. Far too many projects are over thought with no real ROI for all the additional time spent addressing edge cases. If something that was deemed an edge case in design and implementation turns out to be a more popular scenario in production the system can be tweaked at a later time.

As for anti-fraud measures, some are absolute and some are behavior based. For example, whether you have $5 in your account or $5 million there are certain products you are barred from using if you are a new account holder. Other anti-fraud measures take into account way more metrics. It all depends on the fraud profile of the particular product or service we are designing the measures against.

 

[Tekneek]

A 5 minute wait isn't going to ruin my vacation. I agree with that much. It's a lazy solution though. The banking equivalent would be:

(1) people that steal bank cards use them to buy gas;
(2) every bank card used to buy gas will have a lock put on it.

I dislike lazy solutions that will only end up getting in the way of legitimate users. Having said that, I'll now reserve further judgment until the reports come in from this in real operation. Furthermore, any first hand experience I get later this year at a moderate.

 

[jessa07]

I *really* wish they would put this in the parks. We were just at Kings Dominion where you bought a souviner cup for $12.99 and got free refills day of purchase, 99 cent refills on return trips. The refillable mugs at Disney have never been worth it for me because 1) we're not spending a ton of time at the resort, and 2) I'm never in a room convenient to the refill station. If we could use it at the parks too (for an increased cost, of course) I'd buy it.

 

[Tekneek]

Sometimes you just need a rowboat, not the ark.

Love that line. I could swear I've heard it in a meeting before, too.

If something that was deemed an edge case in design and implementation turns out to be a more popular scenario in production the system can be tweaked at a later time.

Yeah. We both know what the solution will be for those legit customers that are caught by this. A CM will most likely have a way to override.

As for anti-fraud measures, some are absolute and some are behavior based. For example, whether you have $5 in your account or $5 million there are certain products you are barred from using if you are a new account holder. Other anti-fraud measures take into account way more metrics. It all depends on the fraud profile of the particular product or service we are designing the measures against.

Yes. Not being able to reveal my role in anti-fraud in the industry, I can just say that I am reasonably familiar with financial crimes on a daily basis and work to stop and prevent them.

 

[Jubilee]

All you need to do in that situation is put a tiny amount of Powerade in the mug, have her taste it, and then fill it up with whatever she would like. The mugs are volume based, so it counts the number of ounces that have been filled and allows for people to mix drinks. Another option is to have her try it at home first.

Yeah, nothing says "vacation" like researching what beverages Disney serves and purchasing them beforehand to do a taste test so that your proposed ration allotment will not go to waste

Anyway, this doesn't effect me at all. Like I said, we bring our water bottles and everything else we drink. The coffee is disgusting, soda is terrible for you. Kids will miss hot cocoa but instant is better anyway. I'll bring packets.

 

[wilkeliza]

Yeah, nothing says "vacation" like researching what beverages Disney serves and purchasing them beforehand to do a taste test so that your proposed ration allotment will not go to waste

Anyway, this doesn't effect me at all. Like I said, we bring our water bottles and everything else we drink. The coffee is disgusting, soda is terrible for you. Kids will miss hot cocoa but instant is better anyway. I'll bring packets.

Seems like you aren't the average consumer though. You yourself have mentioned that your family typically onto drinks water. Now if you were going to let your kids have something new in vacation you could get a cup instead of a mug let them try it and if they don't like it go back to water. Then only the 3 bucks that would have been wasted either way is thrown away or given to someone in the party that enjoys it.

This is designed for the a average consumer not everyone.

 

[WaltD4Me]

I think this is just about the funniest, not intentionally funny thread I've ever read on the DIS in my ten years here. I'm going to say it reached this distinction when the soda ounces analogies included gigabites and bank fraud. As Pete once said ..... "It's SODA people!"

 

[DisneyKevin]

Yeah, nothing says "vacation" like researching what beverages Disney serves and purchasing them beforehand to do a taste test so that your proposed ration allotment will not go to waste

This made me laugh out loud!

 

[15isto2]

How long before we have cloned RFID mugs

 

[doconeill]

How long before we have cloned RFID mugs

That actually came up in a discussion on re-activation of old mugs, as a potential reason they won't allow it. Doubt that's the only reason though.

 

[Tekneek]

That actually came up in a discussion on re-activation of old mugs, as a potential reason they won't allow it. Doubt that's the only reason though.

That's interesting. There is nothing to stop people from reverse engineering it after they get home. If you can find out what it is sending, you can potentially make your own. Somebody will probably discover a few tricks and begin to get things that nobody else can.

 

[klangkat]

Hello, I've read various places that the 4+/Length of Stay price that's given is actually not a 'length of stay' price, but actually only goes up to 14 days and then there will be additional charges, does anyone know what the added cost will be for guests staying for more than 14 days?

 

[brennicksmom]

Hello, I've read various places that the 4+/Length of Stay price that's given is actually not a 'length of stay' price, but actually only goes up to 14 days and then there will be additional charges, does anyone know what the added cost will be for guests staying for more than 14 days?

I was wondering this also. We try to stay 15 days.



Also. How much is the water park add on option?

 

[mmouse50]

What if you are staying 20 days but at 3 different hotels and 3 different dining plans.

1st hotel - 9 days
2nd hotel - 4 days
3rd hotel - 7 days

Can you get the 1st mug for 14 days and keep using it at the 2nd hotel and then at the 2nd hotel get another mug for the 11 more days but never use it and then at the 3rd hotel get another one for 7 days and use that one. Would the mug from the 2nd hotel still be good since it has never been used

 

[smitch425]

What if you are staying 20 days but at 3 different hotels and 3 different dining plans.

1st hotel - 9 days
2nd hotel - 4 days
3rd hotel - 7 days

Can you get the 1st mug for 14 days and keep using it at the 2nd hotel and then at the 2nd hotel get another mug for the 11 more days but never use it and then at the 3rd hotel get another one for 7 days and use that one. Would the mug from the 2nd hotel still be good since it has never been used

3 plans, 3 mugs. They will each deactivate at 11:59pm of each check out day.

 

[smitch425]

Hello, I've read various places that the 4+/Length of Stay price that's given is actually not a 'length of stay' price, but actually only goes up to 14 days and then there will be additional charges, does anyone know what the added cost will be for guests staying for more than 14 days?

I was wondering this also. We try to stay 15 days.



Also. How much is the water park add on option?

The extra days will be free, but will have to be added by the CM, and I believe the water park option is happening sometime in the future, not right away.