"RapidFill" RFID mugs getting rolled out...

[doconeill]

Havent read the entire thread, so this may be redundant...

The Royal Caribbean ships have the Coke Freestyle machines.

You purchase a cup with a chip and you can get refills at any of the machines.

You can fill your cup and wait for the "fizz" to go down and top it off to full, but after a certain amount of time, you enter a waiting time of 15 minutes until your next refill.

The machine will tell you that 9 minutes and 41 seconds to your next refill.

It can be annoying.

How big is the cup?

I can get a gigantor cup at the local movie theater, with free, unlimited refills, from a Freestyle machine. Of course, if I did, I wouldn't spend much time watching the movie...

I WISH these were Freestyle machines they are putting in...I make my own drink flavors...

 

[Tekneek]

I can get a gigantor cup at the local movie theater, with free, unlimited refills, from a Freestyle machine. Of course, if I did, I wouldn't spend much time watching the movie...

Me too. We get refills on drinks (freestyle machines) and popcorn, and they don't make you buy more if you're seeing another movie after the first one. In fact, we buy a bucket that we can use for popcorn refills for an entire year at our local cinema.

I don't mind Disney trying to go after abusers of the system. I do mind Disney causing an inconvenience to legitimate users along the way. As long as I can use the system the way I am accustomed to, it doesn't matter much to me. Seems bizarre to me that they are choosing a system that works well for people who hang around the pool/food court all day (5 minute wait is meaningless) and punish people who go to it a couple of times a day (for less than 10 minutes total). If my entire party has mugs (because we're on the dining plan), then who does this system think I am filling my mug for? I would expect a "highly intelligent" system to have this factored in.

 

[WaltD4Me]

So, how does it know when it is full? If I partially fill it, then drink it, does it count the previously dispensed amount? Is it trying to measure the dispensing on a revolving 5 minute counter? Does it account for the loss of liquid in the carbonation "fizz" at the top or is that measured along with it?

I don't have any knowledge of the testing period and, admittedly, am making some assumptions based on the available information that makes the system seem quite unintelligent.

There are several YouTube videos showing how the machines work. If you drink some of your drink midway through filling, it will still give you only the amount that was originally left in the cup. It is a very simple system to use, and highly intelligent.

I'm pleased that it is more intelligent than first presumed.

"Highly intelligent" is a misnomer, since that would involve behavioral analysis built in and not arbitrary hard-coded limitations. A "highly intelligent" system would track volume dispensing to all IDs, and the time limit between, in order to algorithmically detect likely abusers and not lock legitimate users out of the system. The fact that there are hard-coded limitations is a sign of a "dumb" system, even if more intelligent than first presumed.

Holy smokes, I never knew people, or even Disney for that matter, put so much thought into soda distribution.

 

[OKW Lover]

If my entire party has mugs (because we're on the dining plan), then who does this system think I am filling my mug for? I would expect a "highly intelligent" system to have this factored in.

Since the RFID chip is on the mug you wouldn't have to wait 5 minutes before filling the other mugs.

 

[Tekneek]

Since the RFID chip is on the mug you wouldn't have to wait 5 minutes before filling the other mugs.

I'm not referring to the other mugs. I am referring to my mug. If the system is locking me out for 5 minutes because I am a suspected cheater, who does it think I am stealing soda for? Some stranger I just met in the food court?

 

[smitch425]

If my entire party has mugs (because we're on the dining plan), then who does this system think I am filling my mug for? I would expect a "highly intelligent" system to have this factored in.

Oh good grief. Maybe it isn't "highly" intelligent by your definition, but how can you know all those big words but not realize that it doesn't matter who fills the mugs because it goes by the chip inside each mug?

(just teasin' ya)

 

[DisneyKevin]

Wow. What size container are we talking about here? That is outrageous.

16 opunces

 

[Tekneek]

Oh good grief. Maybe it isn't "highly" intelligent by your definition, but how can you know all those big words but not realize that it doesn't mater who fills the mugs because it goes by the chip inside each mug?

(just teasin' ya)

Disney is implementing a "solution" that is easy for them and passing the problem onto their customers. Like most of these "solutions" that are implemented in life, it is the legitimate customers that end up on the short end. They end up being the ones treated like they are up to no good when only trying to use the product/service the way they did before.

I've worked in computer/information security for nearly 14 years. I know when a company is trying to push the easy button.

 

[doconeill]

I'm not referring to the other mugs. I am referring to my mug. If the system is locking me out for 5 minutes because I am a suspected cheater, who does it think I am stealing soda for? Some stranger I just met in the food court?

The lockout is to prevent people from taking more soda per unit time than Disney deems necessary. This doesn't have anything to do with other paid-for mugs in your family (which you mentioned, so not sure why you now say you weren't referring to them) - those are taken care of individually. It's to prevent taking ONE mug, filling it, then emptying the contents into another non-authorized container and then filling it AGAIN, lather, rinse, repeat.

It is what it is. If you choose to look at it as Disney treating you like a cheater by limiting you, feel free to express that to Disney. But it stops the actual cheaters.

Disney could spin this as a health matter - you shouldn't be drinking so much soda anyways, so they are moderating it for you.

And we don't KNOW that it will be a 5 minute lockout. That's just what they used during the testing over a year ago.

This DID however make me think of a complication of tying it in to MagicBands...say you ARE a family with 4 mugs...and you go down to fill all four mugs. but you only have one MagicBand...can you only get one fill? Or can you get four fills, and THEN lock it out for ALL the linked MBs?

FYI, thinking back...I think the RFID chip is on the base of the mug (per earlier discussion of location).

 

[DisneyKevin]

Holy smokes, I never knew people, or even Disney for that matter, put so much thought into soda distribution.

Wait till the arial photos, heat sensor imaging, night vision goggles, conspiracy theories and laser pointers come out.

 

[doconeill]

Wait till the arial photos, heat sensor imaging, night vision goggles, conspiracy theories and laser pointers come out.

I'm waiting for Robo over on the TPAS board to draw up maps of all dispenser locations, and the relative walking times to each so you can plan your walk within the dispensing limits...

 

[Tekneek]

The lockout is to prevent people from taking more soda per unit time than Disney deems necessary. This doesn't have anything to do with other paid-for mugs in your family (which you mentioned, so not sure why you now say you weren't referring to them) - those are taken care of individually. It's to prevent taking ONE mug, filling it, then emptying the contents into another non-authorized container and then filling it AGAIN, lather, rinse, repeat.

Ok. Apparently it is harder to communicate this than it seemed. If my entire party has mugs, who does Disney think I am trying to steal soda for? If I try to refill my mug in 3 minutes, and it stops me, why is it stopping me? Presumably this is because Disney says I am trying to cheat them. Who am I trying to steal soda for when my entire party also has mugs? Surely it isn't them, right? So I must be trying to steal it for a stranger I met in the food court?

It is what it is. If you choose to look at it as Disney treating you like a cheater by limiting you, feel free to express that to Disney. But it stops the actual cheaters.

If the system is designed to stop cheaters, and it stops legitimate users, then it is falsely targeting them as cheaters. That is only logical.

Disney could spin this as a health matter - you shouldn't be drinking so much soda anyways, so they are moderating it for you.

Absurd. I almost never fill one of these mugs more than 4 times a day. I do it twice in the morning and twice at night. This system allows people hanging around the food court to fill their mug every 5 minutes all day, while I would be required to spend a Disney-determined amount of time hanging around the food court just to fill up 4 times a day (minimum of 10 minutes if they use 5 minute time limits). Health doesn't even begin to factor in.

And we don't KNOW that it will be a 5 minute lockout. That's just what they used during the testing over a year ago.

True. I hope they do something a little more sensible like no more than 3 minutes. Somebody trying to cheat the system will look really awkward waiting even 2 or 3 minutes to immediately pour their mug into something else. 5 minutes is overkill.

This DID however make me think of a complication of tying it in to MagicBands...say you ARE a family with 4 mugs...and you go down to fill all four mugs. but you only have one MagicBand...can you only get one fill? Or can you get four fills, and THEN lock it out for ALL the linked MBs?

FYI, thinking back...I think the RFID chip is on the base of the mug (per earlier discussion of location).

Yeah, the RFID is on the cups from everything I have seen. I only have a few problems with this, in the way it appears to be going to be implemented:

(1) time constraints attached to the re-filling of mugs (if in excess of 2 or 3 minutes);
(2) consumption limits on non-mug purchases (unheard of in other restaurants - especially self serve - in America);
(3) refusal to allow purchased mugs to be re-activated in the future (the capability to add any days at all indicates they *could* add days anytime in the future, but simply choose to force an expiration that is not required by the technology).

 

[OKW Lover]

I'm not referring to the other mugs. I am referring to my mug. If the system is locking me out for 5 minutes because I am a suspected cheater, who does it think I am stealing soda for? Some stranger I just met in the food court?

Apparently we aren't answering your basic questions adequately. I'll try one more time.

This is to prevent somebody from going there with a second container, filling their RFID mug then dumping it into the second container, and refilling the RFID mug again, etc. They don't want people getting a gallon of soda at once. They also don't want people to buy one mug for the whole family.

I'm not saying that you would do that. Please don't take it personally.

 

[Tekneek]

I'm not saying that you would do that. Please don't take it personally.

I'm not taking it personally, although if it happens to me then it will be happening to me personally. I'm just saying they should factor it into the system. If an entire party has mugs, it is less reasonable to tag them as cheaters the same way you would others. They are the least likely to be trying to cheat the system and an intelligent system would recognize that.

 

[smitch425]

Apparently we aren't answering your basic questions adequately. I'll try one more time.

This is to prevent somebody from going there with a second container, filling their RFID mug then dumping it into the second container, and refilling the RFID mug again, etc. They don't want people getting a gallon of soda at once. They also don't want people to buy one mug for the whole family.

I'm not saying that you would do that. Please don't take it personally.

Exactly, and to add to this, the machine will not know that the mug you are using is tied to a dining plan. It will only know that it is an active mug for refills. So for those not on a plan who have been used to buying one mug for their whole party and pouring it onto other cups, a time limit will make it much harder for them to do so.

 

[doconeill]

Ok. Apparently it is harder to communicate this than it seemed. If my entire party has mugs, who does Disney think I am trying to steal soda for? If I try to refill my mug in 3 minutes, and it stops me, why is it stopping me? Presumably this is because Disney says I am trying to cheat them. Who am I trying to steal soda for when my entire party also has mugs? Surely it isn't them, right? So I must be trying to steal it for a stranger I met in the food court?

How do they know your entire party has mugs? How do they know you're not getting it for someone else?

Absurd. I almost never fill one of these mugs more than 4 times a day. I do it twice in the morning and twice at night. This system allows people hanging around the food court to fill their mug every 5 minutes all day, while I would be required to spend a Disney-determined amount of time hanging around the food court just to fill up 4 times a day (minimum of 10 minutes if they use 5 minute time limits). Health doesn't even begin to factor in.

I was being facetious. However, I will point out, you only have to wait IF you want to fill it consecutively. If your 4 times a day aren't consecutive, then you won't have to wait at all...but it will limit those who just hang around all day gorging themselves on soda...

(2) consumption limits on non-mug purchases (unheard of in other restaurants - especially self serve - in America);

My only thought is that in most cases, it really only applies while you are actually there. If you leave, your free refills come to an end. You can't go back hours later (AFAIK), or the next day, and fill up again...

(3) refusal to allow purchased mugs to be re-activated in the future (the capability to add any days at all indicates they *could* add days anytime in the future, but simply choose to force an expiration that is not required by the technology).

I still think there may be a health code thing involved. The laws vary from state to state, but a lot of states don't allow the re-use of plates and containers at self-service locations without having been properly cleaned to certain standards. I wonder if it also applies to drink dispensers. But then, why is "14 days" a magic number?

Note that at the bakery on the Boardwalk (I believe it was there), since the fill station is actually not publically accessible, they actually won't take your mug and fill it, they will fill a cup and you can fill the mug from that - I'm betting due to regulations.

 

[Tekneek]

How do they know your entire party has mugs? How do they know you're not getting it for someone else?

They will know when we get the mugs. I won't be paying for them, because they will be part of the plan. An intelligent system could then flag them as DDP mugs and treat them differently. They *could* do this. Not doing it is a choice. Let's not pretend that this is impossible.

I was being facetious. However, I will point out, you only have to wait IF you want to fill it consecutively. If your 4 times a day aren't consecutive, then you won't have to wait at all...but it will limit those who just hang around all day gorging themselves on soda...

As explained, I usually walk down to the beverage station early in the morning (filling it twice), and then back in the evening (depending on when we get back from the parks - filling it twice). I doubt I usually spend 5 minutes in there both times, which is why I hope they don't do it. Of course, I might be able to take one of the other mugs and rotate filling them. I might actually consume more soda this way, further defeating the whole health angle.

My only thought is that in most cases, it really only applies while you are actually there. If you leave, your free refills come to an end. You can't go back hours later (AFAIK), or the next day, and fill up again...

Indeed, so setting a time limit on the non-mugs of an hour or so seems relatively reasonable. The problem I have is the consumption limit. I don't know of any place in America (perhaps NYC does now, with their new restrictions), with self-serve beverages, that implements a consumption limit. I think they're pushing the envelope with that implementation. They are not charging less than comparable eateries that don't seem to have a problem with all-you-can-drink soda, so why are they trying to skimp there? It is a sure bet that Disney pays less for their soda than just about any other place on the planet. Coke effectively sees this as marketing.

I still think there may be a health code thing involved. The laws vary from state to state, but a lot of states don't allow the re-use of plates and containers at self-service locations without having been properly cleaned to certain standards. I wonder if it also applies to drink dispensers. But then, why is "14 days" a magic number?

I see re-use of plates prevented at buffets, but not with the cups. Cups are re-used at convenience stores, restaurants, food courts (around here, it doesn't even have to be self-serve to get refills with the same cups), and more. The 14 days probably has more to do with Magic Your Way tickets expiring 14 days after first use (unless you have no-expiration) than anything else.

Note that at the bakery on the Boardwalk (I believe it was there), since the fill station is actually not publically accessible, they actually won't take your mug and fill it, they will fill a cup and you can fill the mug from that - I'm betting due to regulations.

I would suspect that they can't take a chance having somebody introduce an allergen. Disney tries to cater to people who have any number of food allergies and dietary restrictions.

 

[doconeill]

They will know when we get the mugs. I won't be paying for them, because they will be part of the plan. An intelligent system could then flag them as DDP mugs and treat them differently. They *could* do this. Not doing it is a choice. Let's not pretend that this is impossible.

Impossible, no. Practical? Depends. Capable within the system being implemented? Possibly not. If the could link mugs together because you're all in the DDP, this would probably be linked to MagicBands, which it currently isn't.

And I still don't see what your family all having DDP mugs has to do with it. If they all have mugs, they can all be filled, individually. And it has nothing to do with you being allowed to fill the same mug more than once.

 

[Tekneek]

And I still don't see what your family all having DDP mugs has to do with it. If they all have mugs, they can all be filled, individually. And it has nothing to do with you being allowed to fill the same mug more than once.

It does. If the limit is designed to prevent abusers from stealing the soda, then how many families on the DDP are stealing soda? They don't need to, because the mugs are included for the entire group. So, if they aren't stealing it for themselves, they must be stealing it for somebody else. Who would that be?

Based on what I know about Validfill's technology (and they appear to be the vendor for this), they have the capability to do more than simply determine if the mug is valid or not. There is more criteria that they can use, such as DDP, DVC, AP, whatever. Disney could create different classes of mugs that are subject to different rules if they wanted to. AP could have a mug valid for an entire year, but Disney appears to have decided against such a thing (by choice - not a technical limitation). I didn't know they were the apparent vendor until just a bit ago.

 

[doconeill]

It does. If the limit is designed to prevent abusers from stealing the soda, then how many families on the DDP are stealing soda? They don't need to, because the mugs are included for the entire group. So, if they aren't stealing it for themselves, they must be stealing it for somebody else. Who would that be?

I'm sorry, but I still don't see the argument. You seem to be under the assumption that because you are on the DDP, you couldn't be stealing the soda for someone else. The two aren't exclusive. You COULD steal it for someone else.

Based on what I know about Validfill's technology (and they appear to be the vendor for this), they have the capability to do more than simply determine if the mug is valid or not. There is more criteria that they can use, such as DDP, DVC, AP, whatever. Disney could create different classes of mugs that are subject to different rules if they wanted to. AP could have a mug valid for an entire year, but Disney appears to have decided against such a thing (by choice - not a technical limitation). I didn't know they were the apparent vendor until just a bit ago.

It still could be a limitation, as they would need to integrate with the Disney system to determine these things - which right now is in flux (to put it mildly), and they don't want to wait, for whatever reason.

Of COURSE it is a choice - they could have chosen not to do this yet and wait, or they could choose to use the tech out of the box - for now - and integrate it later when there is a stable interface to integrate to.