Pro Choice or Not

[LuvDuke]

Everyone doesn't fit perfectly into two separate camps. It is possible to believe that human life starts at conception and that it is a separate life from the mother, and still care about the mothers, and be a good person. You make it out like I (and all other pro-lifers) are all crazed horrible people that don't care about birth mothers, and just want our way. Why so defensive?

There really are 2 separate camps: Either you respect the privacy rights of someone seeking a legal abortion or you don't". Either you're concerned about the mother or you aren't. And if pro-lifers are so concerned about maternal and fetal health, how come I don't see a ground swell of support for mandated pre-natal care? Indeed, it appears to me, the ones screaming the most about "healthy babies in someone else's womb" are the also the ones screaming the most against "big government healthcare programs"?

Btw, quite to the contrary, I'm not on the defense. I'm on the offense because I'm sick and tired of seeing the tail wag the dog when it comes to legal abortion. It's about time those of us who believe in privacy stood up for our rights. And we are the mainstream.

I don't care if someone is "pro-life" or not. That's their business. I'm concerned with how their "pro-life" concerns the contents of my womb. And that is the essence of the debate. Who decides: the individul or the pro-life lobby?

 

[Freyja]

What would be worse? An abortion or finding dead newborn in a trash can? When girls or couples can't face the truth, they just dump the poor baby. You hear this all the time. I'd rather they had the abortion.

Oh, please don´t go there. Where on earth do you hear about it "all the time"? Yes, it happens. Yes, it´s horrible. But it also just a very small % of babies who have parents who "can´t face the truth" that end that way. If people can´t face the truth, I believe they would also be very unlikely to consider and get an appointment for an abortion during the first trimester.

 

[SallyfromDE]

Oh, please don´t go there. Where on earth do you hear about it "all the time"? Yes, it happens. Yes, it´s horrible. But it also just a very small % of babies who have parents who "can´t face the truth" that end that way. If people can´t face the truth, I believe they would also be very unlikely to consider and get an appointment for an abortion during the first trimester.

It's happens more then "a small %". There have been several young couple prosecuted in this area. One of them was a very high profile, and a shame that they both got off. All I can think of is Amy and Scott.

 

[goofygirl]

They're begging for "white, healthy" babies and not just for any baby.

And even that isn't enough sometimes. They have to have a baby with their own DNA, so they opt for the fertility clinic instead of adoption.

And by they way they are "killing babies" in those fertility clinics. It is a given that some embryos will "take" and some will die during the treatments. But you don't hear the "pro lifers" getting all upset over that. Interesting.

 

[Freyja]

It's happens more then "a small %". There have been several young couple prosecuted in this area. One of them was a very high profile, and a shame that they both got off. All I can think of is Amy and Scott.

Please show me statistics that show that it´s more than "a small %".

 

[LuvDuke]

And even that isn't enough sometimes. They have to have a baby with their own DNA, so they opt for the fertility clinic instead of adoption.

And by they way they are "killing babies" in those fertility clinics. It is a given that some embryos will "take" and some will die during the treatments. But you don't hear the "pro lifers" getting all upset over that. Interesting.

What embryos in the fertility clinics? Aren't they all being adopted by healthy, young, pro-lifers? There's a baby bonanza right there.

 

[my4kids]

And even that isn't enough sometimes. They have to have a baby with their own DNA, so they opt for the fertility clinic instead of adoption.

And by they way they are "killing babies" in those fertility clinics. It is a given that some embryos will "take" and some will die during the treatments. But you don't hear the "pro lifers" getting all upset over that. Interesting.[/quote]


That upsets me to the extreme, those clinics are creating and destroying lives my the thousands daily.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

Could someone please explain to me why if you are pro-life you automatically must adopt 20 children and/or adopt the leftover embryos in the fertility clinics (as suggested by LuvDuke), according to some of you folks?? Can you not be pro-life and childfree?

 

[my4kids]

What embryos in the fertility clinics? Aren't they all being adopted by healthy, young, pro-lifers? There's a baby bonanza right there.

Too many embryos are created daily for any population to adopt. That is why they should not be created in the first place. A number of eggs should be fertilized that matches the number of children and couple wants to have. If it doesn't take, go back and fertilize more eggs. If they can freeze the embryos, I don't understand why they don't freeze the retrieved eggs, and only fertilize them as they need them.

 

[goofygirl]

another question for all pro-choice people -

Would you be opposed to mothers (especially young mothers) seeking an abortion to be couseled about adoption first. Not saying that their right to an abortion is at all jepordised, just that before they had the procedure and they were being counseled about it, that someone would first talk to them about what their other options were. I mean, if someone is pro-choice, then they should be all for someone actually being presented with choices, not just the quickest way out. No pressure, just information.

Many very pro-choice people I know freak out at that suggestion. All of the sudden they feel that that is going to stand in the way of womans rights etc. etc. I just think that many times a girl is desperate, and doesn't know where to go about adoption, how it works, if there will be legal fees, and lets face it, any 16 yr old with a drivers licence knows where to go and how to get an abortion .

I am all for all women of all ages learning about all options.

BUT the problem is that there's "pregnancy centers" that are not impartial or fair. These are centers funded by pro-life groups and the government (thanks to Dubya's "faith based initiatives" aka Theocracy) and they withold info on abortion, or they scare young girls out of an abortion with photos, propaganda, etc. They prey on vulnerable, scared girls with no place to go.

Girls and women should learn about ALL options, in an unbiased way, and in no particular order.

 

[Fitswimmer]

When it's part of my body, you can keep your "concern" to yourself.

Btw, if you're so concerned about unborn babies, are you also lobbying for mandated pre-natal care for all pregnant women? Are you lobbying for mandated nurse's visits 6 months after the baby's born like most civilized countries do in this world? Or are you only interested in babies as long as they're in someone else's womb?

Having seen the pro-life lobby in action, pardon me if I question just how benign this "concern" really is.

I'm for keeping abortion legal. However, I am really tired of listening to people demonize the entire pro life community. There are many people in my parish who are active in what they call Pro-life ministry. They spend their time organizing drives for donations of food and baby needs, they have a group that makes sure that the moms are able to get to the MD, both before and after the baby is born. They do raffles to get $$ to pay for medical care and some of the money from our parish collections also goes to pay for that. (We are a tithing parish and 10% of what our parishioners give goes back out to charities.) They arrange for child care if the mom wants to return to work after her baby is born. And yes, they do lobby their congress members for better medical care and family leave laws, they've had petitions for us to sign after Mass. One of our parishioners works for my company and she was instrumental in getting the CEO to understand the need for work at home and flexible hours which benefit our working families.

And before you go after me, I'm just as tired of hearing pro-choice people called baby killers or anything else of that nature. This is an issue that has good and compassionate people on BOTH sides. Demonizing those on either side of the debate is WRONG.

 

[my4kids]

Could someone please explain to me why if you are pro-life you automatically must adopt 20 children and/or adopt the leftover embryos in the fertility clinics (as suggested by LuvDuke), according to some of you folks?? Can you not be pro-life and childfree?

No, apparently you can't be. According to LuvDuke, you are either bad and hate woman, or you are good and care about women. You either need to solve ALL the worlds problems on you own and adopt all of their unwanted children , or you have to keep your mouth shut. You are not entitle to an opinion otherwise. You are not allowed to believe that ALL human lives are equal even if some of the human lives are not able to speak for themselves yet.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

No, apparently you can't be. According to LuvDuke, you are either bad and hate woman, or you are good and care about women. You either need to solve ALL the worlds problems on you own and adopt all of their unwanted children , or you have to keep your mouth shut. You are not entitle to an opinion otherwise. You are not allowed to believe that ALL human lives are equal even if some of the human lives are not able to speak for themselves yet.

That's what I figured. Sad, isn't it?

 

[LuvDuke]

Could someone please explain to me why if you are pro-life you automatically must adopt 20 children and/or adopt the leftover embryos in the fertility clinics (as suggested by LuvDuke), according to some of you folks?? Can you not be pro-life and childfree?

No one said you have to adopt 20 children. But it would be a nice gesture if those who are so concerned with "little babies" adopted one as a show of good faith.

Btw, I don't care if people are pro-life or not. That's their business. My concern is when that pro-life stance extends to other people and their lives. And, IMO, if and when that "pro-life" stance crosses over to other people, it's hypocritical not to adopt a few children or embryos. If you believe in adoption, then adopt.

 

[goofygirl]

Too many embryos are created daily for any population to adopt. That is why they should not be created in the first place. A number of eggs should be fertilized that matches the number of children and couple wants to have. If it doesn't take, go back and fertilize more eggs. If they can freeze the embryos, I don't understand why they don't freeze the retrieved eggs, and only fertilize them as they need them.

So far, you are the only pro-life person I've seen that has shown any opposition to IVF practices. For the most part, I've seen the pro-life movement stay quiet on this issue.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

No one said you have to adopt 20 children. But it would be a nice gesture if those who are so concerned with "little babies" adopted one as a show of good faith.

Now see, here's that I don't get. What about those folks who don't want children of their own? They should adopt one or two just as a show of good faith? That is NOT a good reason to adopt/have a child!!

ETA: I'm still trying to wrap my mind around your logic, LuvDuke. According to your logic, since you are pro-choice, why don't you have an abortion as a show of good faith? Doesn't make sense now, does it?

 

[LuvDuke]

No, apparently you can't be. According to LuvDuke, you are either bad and hate woman, or you are good and care about women. You either need to solve ALL the worlds problems on you own and adopt all of their unwanted children , or you have to keep your mouth shut. You are not entitle to an opinion otherwise. You are not allowed to believe that ALL human lives are equal even if some of the human lives are not able to speak for themselves yet.

You see you misunderstand. I don't care if you're pro-life or not. That's your business and your opinion. You can believe whatever you want. That's the joy of life here in these United States of America. I don't know how much more plainly I can state that. It's when that opinion becomes the object of lobbying and passing laws is when I start calling people on that opinion.

Quite honestly, Roe v Wade fits in perfectly with the pro-life lobby as it doesn't require anyone to have an abortion and respects other's privacy.

And let's stop kidding ourselves here: You'd be very happy if most, if not all, abortions were banned. And when that happens, you're opinion infringes on someone else's privacy.

Btw, I don't believe in abortion except in the most dire of circumstances. But, I sure as hell believe in the right to privacy and that privacy is between a woman and her doctor.

 

[LuvDuke]

Now see, here's that I don't get. What about those folks who want children of their own? They should adopt one or two just as a show of good faith? That is NOT a good reason to adopt/have a child!!

It's called talk is cheap.

ETA: I'm still trying to wrap my mind around your logic, LuvDuke. According to your logic, since you are pro-choice, why don't you have an abortion as a show of good faith? Doesn't make sense now, does it?

It makes absolutely no sense. The word here is CHOICE. I made my CHOICE. You can make your CHOICE. See how CHOICE works.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

It's called talk is cheap.

Unbelievable.

 

[chobie]

No one said you have to adopt 20 children. But it would be a nice gesture if those who are so concerned with "little babies" adopted one as a show of good faith.

Btw, I don't care if people are pro-life or not. That's their business. My concern is when that pro-life stance extends to other people and their lives. And, IMO, if and when that "pro-life" stance crosses over to other people, it's hypocritical not to adopt a few children or embryos. If you believe in adoption, then adopt.

It also hard for people like us to buy the whole "valuing life" mantra when we see such things children living in homeless shelters and children without health care.

People who are against abortion get angry we see them as being only for prenatal life and not caring what happens once the baby is born, however, the majority of these people tend to vote for politicians who at the same time they are pro-life are against health care for everyone, headstart programs, welfare, living wage jobs, maternity leave etc. etc.


Pro-choice people, for the most part, say choose how you want to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, and if you choose to have that baby we will do what we can to help you give that baby the best quality of life we as a society will provide.

If pro-lifers want to see compromise, that would be a good place to start, Make abortion an option no one has to choose for lack of money.

Whether people think that its selfish to have an abortion for financial reasons does not change the fact that it is the reality. If you want less abortions, then take away the number one reason women have them.