Pro Choice or Not

[my4kids]

So far, you are the only pro-life person I've seen that has shown any opposition to IVF practices. For the most part, I've seen the pro-life movement stay quiet on this issue.

i agree with you there, I don't get it, I think it is 2 things - lack of education on how IVF is done, and also a misguided leadership in the pro-life community that is trying to focus on winning different battles first. To me attacking the way IVF is handled would be the easiest battle, not interfere with ANYONES rights ands save millions of babies doomed for distruction from being created in the first place. That is where the movement should be focused right now.

 

[my4kids]

You see you misunderstand. I don't care if you're pro-life or not. That's your business and your opinion. You can believe whatever you want. That's the joy of life here in these United States of America. I don't know how much more plainly I can state that. It's when that opinion becomes the object of lobbying and passing laws is when I start calling people on that opinion.

Quite honestly, Roe v Wade fits in perfectly with the pro-life lobby as it doesn't require anyone to have an abortion and respects other's privacy.

And let's stop kidding ourselves here: You'd be very happy if most, if not all, abortions were banned. And when that happens, you're opinion infringes on someone else's privacy.

Btw, I don't believe in abortion except in the most dire of circumstances. But, I sure as hell believe in the right to privacy and that privacy is between a woman and her doctor.

BUt you do realize that since abortions are so easy to get, that irresposible people are falling back on that as birth control. The majority of abortions are not being done in the most dire of circumstances. I know a married woman who aborted her own husbands child because they weren't done decorating their house yet, and "they just weren't ready". (Of course now that she is ready, she can't get pregnant, so IVF it is!)

 

[chobie]

It's called talk is cheap.



It makes absolutely no sense. The word here is CHOICE. I made my CHOICE. You can make your CHOICE. See how CHOICE works.

Exactly, we are not telling people what they should do. We are not saying have an abortion, but they are saying give the baby up for adoption.

 

[chobie]

BUt you do realize that since abortions are so easy to get, that irresposible people are falling back on that as birth control. The majority of abortions are not being done in the most dire of circumstances. I know a married woman who aborted her own husbands child because they weren't done decorating their house yet, and "they just weren't ready". (Of course now that she is ready, she can't get pregnant, so IVF it is!)

Any woman who would choose a surgical abortion ( a rather uncomfortable procedure I am told) over taking a pill or having her the man wear a condom, has some serious psychological issues. That is not the norm and you know it. And they are not easy to get, they are costly, some states have so many restrictions and barriers there are almost no providers in the state, and of course they often have to walk a gauntlet of protesters sreaming in their face. I would hardly call that easy.

 

[LadyShiva]

I'm for keeping abortion legal. However, I am really tired of listening to people demonize the entire pro life community. There are many people in my parish who are active in what they call Pro-life ministry. They spend their time organizing drives for donations of food and baby needs, they have a group that makes sure that the moms are able to get to the MD, both before and after the baby is born. They do raffles to get $$ to pay for medical care and some of the money from our parish collections also goes to pay for that. (We are a tithing parish and 10% of what our parishioners give goes back out to charities.) They arrange for child care if the mom wants to return to work after her baby is born. And yes, they do lobby their congress members for better medical care and family leave laws, they've had petitions for us to sign after Mass. One of our parishioners works for my company and she was instrumental in getting the CEO to understand the need for work at home and flexible hours which benefit our working families.

And before you go after me, I'm just as tired of hearing pro-choice people called baby killers or anything else of that nature. This is an issue that has good and compassionate people on BOTH sides. Demonizing those on either side of the debate is WRONG.

Thank you for showing this side... As one who has been incredibly tempted to run over someone holding a grotesque poster outside a high school (!!!!) where a Presidential candidate was speaking, it is nice to see anti-abortion people doing this charity work. The people with posters have really upped my hatred of "anti-abortion" activists.

It didn't help I was pregnant when I saw the poster, though. Geesh. My husband fussed at me about my reaction when I picked him up from work, then when he drove me back home, saw the poster too, and had the same reaction... Though he just flipped the person off--AFTER lecturing me about free speech when he got in the car! I closed my eyes and tried not to worry about Fiona.

Yeah, I know... Shouldn't have wanted to run over the guy. Wouldn't have helped the situation, yadda yadda yadda... I didn't run over him.

Brandie

 

[Fitswimmer]

It also hard for people like us to buy the whole "valuing life" mantra when we see such things children living in homeless shelters and children without health care.

People who are against abortion get angry we see them as being only for prenatal life and not caring what happens once the baby is born, however, the majority of these people tend to vote for politicians who at the same time they are pro-life are against health care for everyone, headstart programs, welfare, living wage jobs, maternity leave etc. etc.


Pro-choice people, for the most part, say choose how you want to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, and if you choose to have that baby we will do what we can to help you give that baby the best quality of life we as a society will provide.

If pro-lifers want to see compromise, that would be a good place to start, Make abortion an option no one has to choose for lack of money.

Whether people think that its selfish to have an abortion for financial reasons does not change the fact that it is the reality. If you want less abortions, then take away the number one reason women have them.

Are financial reasons truly the number one reason for abortion? That would mean that when the laws about welfare $$ for children in NJ were changed back during Governor Whitman's term we would have seen an astronomical surge in abortions and I don't recall hearing about that from my pro-life friends.

I'm trying to find stats, but I haven't found anything that wasn't biased in favor of one side or another. I'll keep looking for something that isn't from Right to Life or NARAL or someone else connected with an agenda.

 

[LuvDuke]

Unbelievable.

Truth hurts.

 

[LadyShiva]

Are financial reasons truly the number one reason for abortion? That would mean that when the laws about welfare $$ for children in NJ were changed back during Governor Whitman's term we would have seen an astronomical surge in abortions and I don't recall hearing about that from my pro-life friends.

I'm trying to find stats, but I haven't found anything that wasn't biased in favor of one side or another. I'll keep looking for something that isn't from Right to Life or NARAL or someone else connected with an agenda.

I posted stats early on in the thread... Lemme go unearth them again.

Brandie

 

[LindsayDunn228]

Truth hurts.

Not this poster, sister.

 

[va32h]

If most abortions were performed because of a medical necessity or because of rape or incest, etc. then I wouldn't have such a problem, but the truth is that most abortions are performed as a "get out of jail free" card by people who don't want to accept responsibility for having sex. Plain and simple. Abortion is used as a cop out.

So the baby should be used as a punishment?

You had sex and this is the consequence, and if you hate the baby, well it just serves you right!

If the unborn baby's life is so precious, why sentence him to a life with a mother who does not want him?

Don't you think that if a woman really doesn't want to have a baby, that's probably a darn good reason not to put a baby in her care? Whether it be financial problems or lack of resources or no relationship with the father, or simply lack of desire to mother.

Yes, you are absolutely right, she shouldn't have gotten pregnant if she didn't want the baby. She shouldn't have had sex if she couldn't handle the possibility of getting pregnant. But that and fifty cents will get you a call to the child protective services hotline. When a baby is born to a mother who does not want it - it's the baby who is punished, not the mother.

In a perfect world, all those women would give their babies up for adoption and they would all go to loving homes and puppies and kittens would frolic in flower studded fields while a rainbow arcs overhead.

But alas, we do not live in such a world, and very often, women who don't want to have babies end up getting pregnant anyway, and if they are unable to get an abortion they end up with a baby they resent, neglect and abuse. Assuming the baby doesn't die shortly after childbirth due to lack of prenatal care of course.

I used to volunteer with a family crisis center - I've seen too many children whose short lives were filled with nothing but abuse and pain. Aborting a baby at three weeks is a million times more humane, IMO than letting him die after three years of neglect, having been kicked to death by his mother's crack dealer because she couldn't pay what she owed him.

I have three children. My youngest is 3 1/2. When I found out I was pregnant the third time, I was distraught. There are a lot of reasons that I would rather not get into here, but suffice to say - it wasn't something I wanted to happen. I wanted to stop at two - it was a mistake.

And I thought about terminating the pregnancy. And after careful consideration, I CHOSE not to. My daughter is a child I chose to have, not a burden I HAD to have, because there were no other options available to me. That makes a world of difference - that I had the choice.

 

[LuvDuke]

I'm for keeping abortion legal. However, I am really tired of listening to people demonize the entire pro life community. There are many people in my parish who are active in what they call Pro-life ministry. They spend their time organizing drives for donations of food and baby needs, they have a group that makes sure that the moms are able to get to the MD, both before and after the baby is born. They do raffles to get $$ to pay for medical care and some of the money from our parish collections also goes to pay for that. (We are a tithing parish and 10% of what our parishioners give goes back out to charities.) They arrange for child care if the mom wants to return to work after her baby is born. And yes, they do lobby their congress members for better medical care and family leave laws, they've had petitions for us to sign after Mass. One of our parishioners works for my company and she was instrumental in getting the CEO to understand the need for work at home and flexible hours which benefit our working families.

And before you go after me, I'm just as tired of hearing pro-choice people called baby killers or anything else of that nature. This is an issue that has good and compassionate people on BOTH sides. Demonizing those on either side of the debate is WRONG.

The only ones demonizing the entire pro-life community, through their actions, are the Randall Terry's and the Flip Benhem's of the active pro-life movement. I would respectfully suggest you tell them they aren't the entire pro-life movement and not people like me. I also respectfully suggest you also tell the Republican rightwing that one can indeed be pro-life and respect the true meaning of Roe v Wade.

 

[LuvDuke]

Not this poster, sister.

You are not my sister.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

You are not my sister.

Thankfully you are not mine.

My point was that truth does not hurt in my case.

 

[va32h]

BUt you do realize that since abortions are so easy to get, that irresposible people are falling back on that as birth control. The majority of abortions are not being done in the most dire of circumstances. I know a married woman who aborted her own husbands child because they weren't done decorating their house yet, and "they just weren't ready". (Of course now that she is ready, she can't get pregnant, so IVF it is!)

And so the solution for people who are too irresponsible to use birth control is to make them responsible for the life of an infant who will need to rely on them for 100% of their care?

In the case of your example - I agree that woman is a selfish, heartless, lunatic which is a darned good reason why she shouldn't be anyone's mother.

 

[LadyShiva]

Here you go:
http://www.guttmacher.org/presentati...ort_slides.pdf

If I already missed the critique of these stats, sorry about that.

The stats are surprising to both sides of the issue. I'm firmly pro-choice, having been raped and having had to get an abortion. That being said, I can give you my experience in the waiting room actually jives with these statistics.

I know I personally would have MUCH rather experienced an abortion using RU-486 than a surgical abortion with a Planned Parenthood doctor who resented me needing his services. The counselor who sat with me during the procedure was infuriated by the comments the doctor made while performing my abortion. *sigh* Of course, she knew from the interview that I had been raped, while the doctor didn't.

Brandie

 

[Fitswimmer]

Ok, I found this site: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/usa/ab-usa-NJ.html

it gives stats for every state, the NJ stats were drawn from the CDC.
In the last 20 years, the highest reported percentage was in 1985 at 41.1% of pregnancies resulting in abortion, but the last 10 years or so the stats have hovered in the 20-23% range.

Now, of course, these are statistics that can be wildly inaccurate on a subject such as this. I can't imagine that there would be any kind of solid data available on the reasons that those 20-23% of abortions occured, whether they were for medical problems with the baby, the mother's health, financial issues or that the child was conceived at "a bad time". It's an intense issue, and a woman would likely want to keep her reasons private, so it would be nearly impossible to determine what drives most of them to make that choice.

Pro life groups tend to assume that most abortions are for issues of convenience, while Pro Choice groups tend to assume that most of them are for health or financial issues. The bottom line is, neither side can really say with any certainty why so many abortions occur because it's a private matter btw a woman and her doctor.

 

[LuvDuke]

BUt you do realize that since abortions are so easy to get, that irresposible people are falling back on that as birth control. The majority of abortions are not being done in the most dire of circumstances. I know a married woman who aborted her own husbands child because they weren't done decorating their house yet, and "they just weren't ready". (Of course now that she is ready, she can't get pregnant, so IVF it is!)

I don't know why people have abortions and I couldn't care less. Some are for very good reasons, IMO, and some are for very bad reasons, IMO. That is an issue of privacy between a woman and her doctor. No one has to justify, to you or to me, why they do what they do. I respect your privacy and everyone else's in making decisions and I expect the same courtesy. That is the essence of CHOICE. That's is what you cannot seem to grasp.

 

[LuvDuke]

Ok, I found this site: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/usa/ab-usa-NJ.html

it gives stats for every state, the NJ stats were drawn from the CDC.
In the last 20 years, the highest reported percentage was in 1985 at 41.1% of pregnancies resulting in abortion, but the last 10 years or so the stats have hovered in the 20-23% range.

Now, of course, these are statistics that can be wildly inaccurate on a subject such as this. I can't imagine that there would be any kind of solid data available on the reasons that those 20-23% of abortions occured, whether they were for medical problems with the baby, the mother's health, financial issues or that the child was conceived at "a bad time". It's an intense issue, and a woman would likely want to keep her reasons private, so it would be nearly impossible to determine what drives most of them to make that choice.

Pro life groups tend to assume that most abortions are for issues of convenience, while Pro Choice groups tend to assume that most of them are for health or financial issues. The bottom line is, neither side can really say with any certainty why so many abortions occur because it's a private matter btw a woman and her doctor.

Believe this one or not, you and I are not that far apart when it comes to the issue of abortion. We both believe in life and abortion only in the most dire of circumstances. We both believe in privacy. That is the mainstream position. You wouldn't know it if you listened to the WH or Congress or the state legislatures. The fact is most people feel the way we do. And that is what Roe v Wade really means.

 

[SandraVB79]

In a perfect world, all those women would give their babies up for adoption and they would all go to loving homes and puppies and kittens would frolic in flower studded fields while a rainbow arcs overhead.

While what followed on this statement was sad (the abused kids), this made me

 

[LadyShiva]

BUt you do realize that since abortions are so easy to get, that irresposible people are falling back on that as birth control. The majority of abortions are not being done in the most dire of circumstances. I know a married woman who aborted her own husbands child because they weren't done decorating their house yet, and "they just weren't ready". (Of course now that she is ready, she can't get pregnant, so IVF it is!)

Which state do you live in that abortions are so easy to get? Have you ever talked to your OB/GYN about their preference for where to get an abortion?

Oh, and the married woman... yeah. Not exactly a great reason to have an abortion. I personally couldn't be friends with someone who gave that reason seriously. But if I wasn't friends with her, I would wonder if there was something else other than the house being ready going on.

Brandie