Pro Choice or Not

[komondorok]

personally I say no, because she had the choice to sleep with the father. In case of rape yes the man should be charged with murder (I know that is the next question coming so I figured I'd answer it now)

I know there are other opinions and I respect that, but this is just my opinion

So, it is ok for the father to force a woman to go through a potentially life-threatening procedure, just because he also chose to sleep with the woman?

Sorry, if my life is on the line, the only person who has any say about my life is ME.

 

[Freyja]

Female and pro-choice (up to 12 weeks gestation).

 

[LuvDuke]

WOW! So a woman's body really isn't her own at all if a man can somehow partially own the medical procedures she undergoes.

Well I'm going to go and treat MY depression now by popping a pill in GF's mouth, and then I'm going to treat MY sleep apnea by putting her mask on, then I'll treat MY cramps by throwing her an advil. Can I own the medical procedures of other people as well, or just my own GF? My mother had breast cancer and a double mastectomy last year--I guess that was that MY cancer and MY mastectomy. (I did after all suffer psychological pain from it. Who cares that it is her breasts that they chopped off right? I mean, my pain has to count too!)


Anyway, GF and I have talked about having children and since I have absolutely no interest in pregnancy or childbirth, she is going to have them. There has never been a question of my getting "an equal right" or "an equal say" or whatever in any decision she would make to terminate the pregnancy. (Of course, we can't have mistakes, so any pregnancy would be a planned one. But there are still lots of situations that might arise where terminating the pregnancy might come up.) Of course given our close relationship and the fact that we love and trust one another, GF and I would talk together about what to do. In the end though it is her body, not mine, and just like I would not accept her trying to dictate my medical decisions I would never try to dictate hers. As someone who can both get pregnant but also be in something like the usual male position regarding a pregnancy, I can't say I have much sympathy for all of the "shouldn't the man's opinion count"? My opinion should and will count inasmuch as my GF wants it to count. And really, I see no reason to ever stop and worry about how much she'll consider my opinion. Obviously since I'm going to have babies with her, I trust her to make good decisions. If I didn't trust her, why in the heck would I want to have a baby with her?!

In any case, since this whole conversation is a non-legal one (I assume it has to be since no one is willing to talk about tiebreakers, and obviously the law can't put that concern aside) it really just comes down to a personal decision about the kind of relationships to have. If you want a relationship the non-pregnant party gets to dictate what the pregnant party should do and owns the things that happen to her body then there are plenty of men who'd be happy to oblige (I'm sure they'll also want you barefoot, pregnant, making their dinner, and knowing your place--but have fun). If you want a relationship in which there is some vague "equal say" or in which the two of you have to agree about what to do regarding a pregnancy (I don't even know what that could possibly mean--you only get 12 weeks to decide to terminate a pregnancy in many states, so what happens on the last day of the 1st trimester when you're still screaming at each other in disagreement? ) you can find that too. Me I'm perfectly happy to be in a "my body, my decision" relationship, and in fact it's the only kind I would ever be in.

Ain't choice grand!

 

[Mrs.Toad]

Assuming that when a woman conceives she is in a loving relationship with the sperm donor of course there should be and most likely will be discussion about what to do about the pregnancy. I think in many cases if the man wants to continue the pregnancy and the woman believes he is sincere about it, the woman will go ahead.

BUT she will have the final say. It is her body. That might not seem fair to some, but life ain't always fair.

If something should go wrong, and her life is in jeopardy, it should be her decision to terminate. Personally, I cannot fathom my husband wishing to continue a pregnancy where my life is in danger.

Exactly. I can think of 11 women I know IRL who have had unplanned pregnancies (who confided in me, that is). 3 were in loving relationships where the decision was made together (2 for marriage and raising the child, 1 for abortion). 5 thought they were in loving relationships, but the boyfriends disappeared immediately after being told about the pregnancy. 2 more thought they were in loving relationships, the boyfriends insisted they'd support her and the baby, blah, blah, blah, but also disappeared by the time the women were 6 or 7 months pregnant, leaving them to raise the babies alone. Only one made the abortion decision on her own and never told the man about it.

I don't know the statistics on this, either, it's just my experience, but I find it hard to believe that women aborting against the man's wishes is a common occurance.

I don't understand.... if you believe abortion is WRONG for you....please explain why you think abortion is wrong at all....

I'm not the person you asked, but here's my view. I am pro-choice, but I still realize that abortion is the taking of a life. I don't put that life on the same level as born human life, though. We all put different types of life on different levels.

Now please, no one try to say I'm equating unborn human life with animals, this is just an example: No one (well, almost no one ) bats an eye when someone purposely squishes a bug or kills a chicken to eat it, but they are sad for the loss of a dog or cat. Even though both are animal life, we place pets on a higher level than chickens or cows.

I place unborn human life on a higher level than animal life, but not as high as born human life. I don't consider an abortion to be the taking of a human life, (at least not in the vast majority of cases, in which they are performed before the 12th week of pregnancy), but I can still recognize that it's the end of a potential human life and find it sad when it occurs. I can know that it's wrong for me, because of my personal situation. But that doesn't mean I can't recognize that other women are in different situations that I know nothing about, feel differently about the unborn life that might be inside of them, and feel that they should be legally allowed to make their own decisions on the matter, regardless of what I think.

I have not adopted any children. I am not against adopting, I just cannot afford to do so. I DO, however, take care of MY responsiblities. I have many friends who were unable to have children and have adopted--- I'm positive that they thank God every day that the birth mothers decided not to abort
Their children.

I am an adoptive mom too, and while I thank God every day that my dd's birthmom chose our family to raise her baby, her decision about whether to carry the pregnancy or terminate it honestly never enters my mind.

 

[poptoone]

How many who are pro-choice are also pro-death penalty? A pro-choice stand is nothing more than that to an unborn child?

 

[Freyja]

How many who are pro-choice are also pro-death penalty? A pro-choice stand is nothing more than that to an unborn child?

I am pro-choice and against the death penalty but mostly because death is much to nice for most of those offenders who could be sentenced to it.

 

[JennyMominRI]

How many who are pro-choice are also pro-death penalty? A pro-choice stand is nothing more than that to an unborn child?

I am against the DP.. The difference to me is an abortion, at least an early one, involves a potential life.. I don't favor later abortions unless there are extenuating circumstances ..The DP involves the exection of a full fledged human being. I don't see any discrepancy in that belief

 

[chobie]

Why would a man be able to force an abortion if the mother didn't want one?

For the same reason he could force a birth on the mother. If the man has a say in what happens then he should have an equal say in whatever the decision is be it abortion or birth.

 

[komondorok]

How many who are pro-choice are also pro-death penalty? A pro-choice stand is nothing more than that to an unborn child?

Not really.

Pro-Choice is NOT Pro-Abortion. It is only that you acknowledge that each woman is entitled to make the decision for her own body. You are in favor of leaving the choice up to the individual.

You obviously believe that life begins at conception, so you would view an abortion as the same thing as the death penalty.

Many people, including many learned ones, do not feel an embryo is life. It has the potential of life, but is not yet life. Therefore, for them, an abortion and the death penalty are completely different. They do not view an abortion as killing a "child" as you do. It is removing some cells from a body.

Pro-choice means you accept everybody's viewpoints as their own and trust that they will make the most informed decision for their own bodies.

 

[kristen821]

For the same reason he could force a birth on the mother. If the man has a say in what happens then he should have an equal say in whatever the decision is be it abortion or birth.

No I think the mother has the right to keep her baby just as a father has the right to keep his baby.

 

[chobie]

I am against the DP.. The difference to me is an abortion, at least an early one involves a potential life.. I don't favor later abortions unless there are extenuating circumstances ..The DP involves the exection of a full fledged human being. I don't see any discrepancy in that belief

Exactly. Pro-choice means not allowing the state to decide what happens to a woman's body after conception occurs. That flows logically with not allowing the state to decide if a convicted criminal lives or dies. However, I am on the fence about DP personally because if someone killed someone I loved, I just might want to see them hang. On the other hand, the DP is given out so erratically and unfairly it does not seem right to have it at all.

 

[chobie]

No I think the mother has the right to keep her baby just as a father has the right to keep his baby.

I would agree with that if the father could gestate and give birth.

 

[Freyja]

Not really.

Pro-Choice is NOT Pro-Abortion. It is only that you acknowledge that each woman is entitled to make the decision for her own body. You are in favor of leaving the choice up to the individual.

You obviously believe that life begins at conception, so you would view an abortion as the same thing as the death penalty.

Many people, including many learned ones, do not feel an embryo is life. It has the potential of life, but is not yet life. Therefore, for them, an abortion and the death penalty are completely different. They do not view an abortion as killing a "child" as you do. It is removing some cells from a body.

Pro-choice means you accept everybody's viewpoints as their own and trust that they will make the most informed decision for their own bodies.

I do believe life starts at conception and yet I´m pro-choice. I really don´t care whether some people choose to call it "baby killing" or abortion.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

I really think that people are bringing the *fathers opinion * into this because they really think it will mean less abortions..Do they forget all the fathers who will want abortions? Will they support the fathers rightt to force a pregnant woman to have an abortion or will it suddenly become the womans right to choose when she is the one choosing to have the baby

Yea, I almost brought that up earlier. I think some believe the tie-breaker should go to whichever party wants to continue the pregnancy.

How many who are pro-choice are also pro-death penalty?

That would be me!

 

[declansdad]

You know what, this discussion has become pointless. No one can show me a post on this thread that says the man should be able to force/control what happens to a woman's body. That hasn't been the point of any of my posts and I don't believe of any other poster.

The point that many have been trying to raise is that if it takes two people to create the child than the discussion should be more of a two way street as to what happens to that child. I have stated that I have no idea how to make this happen and I had hoped that maybe this could be discussed. It is apparent that this won't happen because so many people refuse to even acknowledge it as an opinion. They would rather twist my words to make it seem that I think that the man has the final say and the woman be damned.

Sorry for taking up your time.

 

[JennyMominRI]

No I think the mother has the right to keep her baby just as a father has the right to keep his baby.

So the mother has the right to keep the baby if she wishes, as does the father?. The father has no right to force her to have the abortion and the mother has no right to an abortion.

Then the reality is this *father's rights* arguement is a sham...It's not about the fathers rights. It's about making sure there are less abortions. .If the father wants an abortion than his rights fly out the window,

 

[komondorok]

No I think the mother has the right to keep her baby just as a father has the right to keep his baby.

Then conversely, the father has the right to terminate his baby, just as the mother has the right.

You can't have it only one way - You can't say that it is the only the woman's choice to keep the baby (if the father wants an abortion), but allow the father to have a say if he wants to keep the baby (if the mother wants an abortion.)

What you just said:

Mother wants baby - father wants to terminate: only mother's choice, father has no say

Mother wants to terminate - father wants baby: father has a say in keeping his baby.

You can't have it one way for one situation and another way for the other situation.

If you want to give the father equal rights in keeping the baby, you must also acknowledge that the father has equal rights in terminating the baby.

Otherwise your argument becomes hypocritical.

 

[JennyMominRI]

You know what, this discussion has become pointless. No one can show me a post on this thread that says the man should be able to force/control what happens to a woman's body. That hasn't been the point of any of my posts and I don't believe of any other poster.

The point that many have been trying to raise is that if it takes two people to create the child than the discussion should be more of a two way street as to what happens to that child. I have stated that I have no idea how to make this happen and I had hoped that maybe this could be discussed. It is apparent that this won't happen because so many people refuse to even acknowledge it as an opinion. They would rather twist my words to make it seem that I think that the man has the final say and the woman be damned.

Sorry for taking up your time.

I can't say I viewed your posts that way.

 

[Freyja]

Then conversely, the father has the right to terminate his baby, just as the mother has the right.

You can't have it only one way - You can't say that it is the only the woman's choice to keep the baby (if the father wants an abortion), but allow the father to have a say if he wants to keep the baby (if the mother wants an abortion.)

What you just said:

Mother wants baby - father wants to terminate: only mother's choice, father has no say

Mother wants to terminate - father wants baby: father has a say in keeping his baby.

You can't have it one way for one situation and another way for the other situation.

If you want to give the father equal rights in keeping the baby, you must also acknowledge that the father has equal rights in terminating the baby.

Otherwise your argument becomes hypocritical.

 

[chobie]

You know what, this discussion has become pointless. No one can show me a post on this thread that says the man should be able to force/control what happens to a woman's body. That hasn't been the point of any of my posts and I don't believe of any other poster.

The point that many have been trying to raise is that if it takes two people to create the child than the discussion should be more of a two way street as to what happens to that child. I have stated that I have no idea how to make this happen and I had hoped that maybe this could be discussed. It is apparent that this won't happen because so many people refuse to even acknowledge it as an opinion. They would rather twist my words to make it seem that I think that the man has the final say and the woman be damned.

Sorry for taking up your time.

I love it when people post on a thread just to say its pointless to post on that thread.

You have said that the man should have "some weight in the decison" you have said that in the case of a tie "it should not automatically default to the woman" but you have given no solutions, no suggestions. We all have said that the man has a say, is allowed an opinion etc, but that is where it ends legally. He states his opinion, she makes the ultimate decision.

What more do you want?