Pro Choice or Not

[JennyMominRI]

Okay, now you're just stretching things. I believe what was said was, "If applicapble, the creators should both have a say."

But, as I said, one way street, debate amongst yourselves.

I thought you were finished? You know"toodles" and all that

 

[Ariel Mae]

But in the end, when her feet are in stirrups and the doctor is coming at her with the speculum, she has the final say as to whether to go through it.

*sighs* We get it, Chobie. You think it's about the woman.

I.

Disagree.

I'm sorry I do. I do not think it lies just in the woman's hands, no matter how you put it, so please, quit trying to debunk my viewpoint. All are acceptable/allowed to be posted.

You know Ariel..I aborted a baby we both badly wanted at 9 weeks...Ed went with me. He felt pain ,but I guarantee you right now that if you ask he would tell you that I felt far more pain, both physically and mentallly, than he did while *killing our Baby*.. I'm sorry but it's just not equal

That's based on your experiences. I've seen likewise to back up mine. It will vary, as I've seen, though.

 

[chobie]

But I don't want to put you on ignore, that's the issue, here.

Then stop threatening it. It's the cyber equivalent of saying you are going to take your marbles and stop playing.

 

[LuvDuke]

But I don't want to put you on ignore, that's the issue, here.



So, what, those of us who disagree are just, what, invisible, now? It's a one way street, is it? "The woman's body" is the only acceptable answer?

As the law stands now, your opinion doesn't amount to a rat's *** for someone else's decisions and that's the way it should be. What you choose to make a decision is based on your opinion. More power to you when it comes to your life.

But, when it comes decision making for someone else's life, your opinon doesn't amount to squat. That is the way it should be. And that is the issue that you can't seem to grasp. You apparently don't like that idea. Welcome to the real world.

 

[chobie]

*sighs* We get it, Chobie. You think it's about the woman.

I.

Disagree.

I'm sorry I do. I do not think it lies just in the woman's hands, no matter how you put it, so please, quit trying to debunk my viewpoint. All are acceptable/allowed to be posted.



That's based on your experiences. I've seen likewise to back up mine. It will vary, as I've seen, though.

You might want to think twice about puttinng yourself in the same position of Jenny. Most of here when she went through that horrible experience.

 

[chobie]

As the law stands now, your opinion doesn't amount to a rat's *** for someone else's decisions and that's the way it should be. What you choose to make a decision is based on your opinion. More power to you when it comes to your life.

But, when it comes decision making for someone else's life, your opinon doesn't amount to squat. That is the way it should. And that is the issue that you can't seem to grasp. You apparently don't like that idea. Welcome to the real world.

Right, she is more than entitled to allow some guy to make medical decisions for her. Let every other woman make that choice for themself.

 

[Kath2003]

I don't understand.... if you believe abortion is WRONG for you....please explain why you think abortion is wrong at all....

I don't really know how I feel about abortion. To be honest, I think I would personally avoid it because I think that once the baby arrived I'd love him/her to death and wouldn't be able to imagine life without them. I think that a life is a life and that abortion does remove the life of a being unable to protest for itself.

However I am strongly pro-choice. The feelings I have are mine, they are my morals, opinions and feelings and not those of anyone else. I don't think that my personal opinions, feelings and morals should restrict the options available to anyone else.

Further, I think there is extreme danger in making abortions illegal, in that if anyone really wants to get an abortion - and I believe that there are very few who make that kind of decision lightly! - they will seek one out - on the back streets, with a bottle of gin, whatever means they feel necessary to remove that child from their body. That poses not only the existing risk to the unborn child but a risk to the mother, too. I would rather have the mother safe and offered emotional support than have her chastised by society, given no emotional support and forced to seek out methods that put herself in danger because someone else's morals tell her that what she wants is wrong.

 

[komondorok]

You want fact:
In the time it took me to write this post, 10 women in this world died during childbirth.

In the 21st Century in the Western World - ie: America and Europe - 1 in 4,000 women DIE during childbirth.
**

Still think the risk is equal? The father is not making a potentially life or death decision. The woman is.

**Dr. Harvey Fineberg, president of the Institute of Medicine, served as provost of Harvard University from 1997 to 2001, following thirteen years as dean of the Harvard School of Public Health. He spent forty years at Harvard as an undergraduate, a medical student, a graduate student, a professor, a dean, and a provost. http://athome.harvard.edu/programs/rrh/rrh_slides/rrh_2.html

 

[katerkat]

Yes, and it's called putting your money where your mouth is.

No, but what's really important is that I get credit on the DIS for doing it. I'm not going to adopt if I don't get to throw out that trump card in every abortion debate.







(Kidding! No one call the social workers, please!)

 

[LuvDuke]

Can you prove this?

Prove what?

What if the father were to make the final decision?

The woman chose to transfer that power. Hey, whattyanno, it's still her decision.

I've seen it happen, and, hey, guess what? The mom sat down, they talked it out some more, and they came to an agreement, and that agreement was based on the father's words.

So? How does this negate the fact that he will never have an abortion no matter what he decides?

Personally, I feel as if this has become a one way street. Only one side is acceptable to speak. The rest of us? We're heathens. Ignore us, throw tomatoes at us. Why not, it's already being done. Do have fun debating amongst each other...if a one way street can do that. Toodles.

You don't want the right to speak. You want someone to accept your opinion. They are not the same thing. The only thing you have is the right to an opinion and not to have that opinon count for someone else's decisions.

In the current psycho- babble, you want your opinon validated and it just ain't happening. That's life.

Toodles.

Ta ta.

 

[kristen821]

The issue here is equal say which would also mean equal say in demanding the woman having an abortion. Imagine the pain of the man who did not want to support a child who could not force the woman to abort. Still feel just as much compassion for him?

And no. I don't thing the mental pain of an abortion for the man would outweigh the physical pain of childbirth combined with the mental pain of being forced to carry a pregnancy to term.

And what about rapists? Should they have a say in the child they fathered?

I think if the mother doesn't want the baby and the father does he should be given the baby after birth and rights should be signed over so she doesn't have to worry about child support.
In the case of rape the father should be in jail and he wouldn't have custody of the baby and hopefully a family that can't have a baby will be able to adopt, but it is very rare somebody gets pregnant through rape.
I know the mother goes through a lot of pain, but I just don't believe abortion is right.

 

[chobie]

I think if the mother doesn't want the baby and the father does he should be given the baby after birth and rights should be signed over so she doesn't have to worry about child support.
In the case of rape the father should be in jail and he wouldn't have custody of the baby and hopefully a family that can't have a baby will be able to adopt, but it is very rare somebody gets pregnant through rape.
I know the mother goes through a lot of pain, but I just don't believe abortion is right.

Okay, so you think the man should be able to force childbirth on the woman, but not abortion? Am I getting this right?

 

[Bichon Barb]

Can you prove this?

What if the father were to make the final decision?

I've seen it happen, and, hey, guess what? The mom sat down, they talked it out some more, and they came to an agreement, and that agreement was based on the father's words.

Personally, I feel as if this has become a one way street. Only one side is acceptable to speak. The rest of us? We're heathens. Ignore us, throw tomatoes at us. Why not, it's already being done. Do have fun debating amongst each other...if a one way street can do that. Toodles.

Ariel Mae, with all due respect, I think you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. You are not making any sense. I don't want to join in on the pissing match, but if the woman decides to go with what her mate wants, fine, but she still has the CHOICE to do that or not. Of course if he has a gun to her head or threatens her or something like that, then that would something else.

 

[komondorok]

I think if the mother doesn't want the baby and the father does he should be given the baby after birth and rights should be signed over so she doesn't have to worry about child support.
In the case of rape the father should be in jail and he wouldn't have custody of the baby and hopefully a family that can't have a baby will be able to adopt, but it is very rare somebody gets pregnant through rape.
I know the mother goes through a lot of pain, but I just don't believe abortion is right.

What if the woman dies during childbirth because the father forced her to bear the child for him? As I stated in my previous post, in today's world, in our medically and technologically advanced society, 1 in 4000 women still die during childbirth.

If the father forces the woman to bear his child against her will, and she dies, does he get convicted for murder?

 

[kristen821]

Why would a man be able to force an abortion if the mother didn't want one?

 

[JennyMominRI]

Okay, so you think the man should be able to force childbirth on the woman, but not abortion? Am I getting this right?

I really think that people are bringing the *fathers opinion * into this because they really think it will mean less abortions..Do they forget all the fathers who will want abortions? Will they support the fathers rightt to force a pregnant woman to have an abortion or will it suddenly become the womans right to choose when she is the one choosing to have the baby

 

[LuvDuke]

Judging by what's going on in this thread and the other abortion thread, this is why the Republicans have suddenly changed the debate over Roe v Wade from "baby killer" to "we're just giving the rights back to the states". Yeah, and big pink pig will fly out of some rightwing politicians butt.

If and when the Republicans get their wish that Roe v Wade be overturned, it will unleash a firestorm across this country not seen since the Civil War. It will mean the death of the Republican rightwing and they'll take the rest of the party with them down the crapper. Including the ones like Giuliani and Romney who think they're so clever working both sides of the street.

It's going to be a helluva show.

 

[kristen821]

What if the woman dies during childbirth because the father forced her to bear the child for him? As I stated in my previous post, in today's world, in our medically and technologically advanced society, 1 in 4000 women still die during childbirth.

If the father forces the woman to bear his child against her will, and she dies, does he get convicted for murder?

personally I say no, because she had the choice to sleep with the father. In case of rape yes the man should be charged with murder (I know that is the next question coming so I figured I'd answer it now)

I know there are other opinions and I respect that, but this is just my opinion

 

[komondorok]

I really think that people are bringing the *fathers opinion * into this because they really think it will mean less abortions..Do they forget all the fathers who will want abortions? Will they support the day forcing a pregnant woman to have an abortion or will it suddenly become the womans right to choose when she is the one choosing to have the baby

Excellent point Jenny.

 

[smartestnumber5]

No, that's still an opinion. It may not be his body's abortion, but that doesn't mean, in my view, it still isn't his abortion.

WOW! So a woman's body really isn't her own at all if a man can somehow partially own the medical procedures she undergoes.

Well I'm going to go and treat MY depression now by popping a pill in GF's mouth, and then I'm going to treat MY sleep apnea by putting her mask on, then I'll treat MY cramps by throwing her an advil. Can I own the medical procedures of other people as well, or just my own GF? My mother had breast cancer and a double mastectomy last year--I guess that was that MY cancer and MY mastectomy. (I did after all suffer psychological pain from it. Who cares that it is her breasts that they chopped off right? I mean, my pain has to count too!)


Anyway, GF and I have talked about having children and since I have absolutely no interest in pregnancy or childbirth, she is going to have them. There has never been a question of my getting "an equal right" or "an equal say" or whatever in any decision she would make to terminate the pregnancy. (Of course, we can't have mistakes, so any pregnancy would be a planned one. But there are still lots of situations that might arise where terminating the pregnancy might come up.) Of course given our close relationship and the fact that we love and trust one another, GF and I would talk together about what to do. In the end though it is her body, not mine, and just like I would not accept her trying to dictate my medical decisions I would never try to dictate hers. As someone who can both get pregnant but also be in something like the usual male position regarding a pregnancy, I can't say I have much sympathy for all of the "shouldn't the man's opinion count"? My opinion should and will count inasmuch as my GF wants it to count. And really, I see no reason to ever stop and worry about how much she'll consider my opinion. Obviously since I'm going to have babies with her, I trust her to make good decisions. If I didn't trust her, why in the heck would I want to have a baby with her?!

In any case, since this whole conversation is a non-legal one (I assume it has to be since no one is willing to talk about tiebreakers, and obviously the law can't put that concern aside) it really just comes down to a personal decision about the kind of relationships to have. If you want a relationship the non-pregnant party gets to dictate what the pregnant party should do and owns the things that happen to her body then there are plenty of men who'd be happy to oblige (I'm sure they'll also want you barefoot, pregnant, making their dinner, and knowing your place--but have fun). If you want a relationship in which there is some vague "equal say" or in which the two of you have to agree about what to do regarding a pregnancy (I don't even know what that could possibly mean--you only get 12 weeks to decide to terminate a pregnancy in many states, so what happens on the last day of the 1st trimester when you're still screaming at each other in disagreement? ) you can find that too. Me I'm perfectly happy to be in a "my body, my decision" relationship, and in fact it's the only kind I would ever be in.