Pro Choice or Not

[chobie]

Because I don't agree with this statment! That's the issue here. You're expecting me to suddenly flip my opinion because you said so. Well, guess what? I'm not going to!



I never said it was equal, per say, but that there should, in my opinion, be an equal say.



Who's to say the emotional effects are equal? The father may feel far less than the mother. Who's to say the financial effects are equal? What if the mother works, and the dad doesn't? And as for the medical aspect and the physical aspect...I simply do not agree that it is all on the mother. Why? Because I've seen fathers go through the stress of a female's abortion, and, hey, guess what? They had physical illness because of such, and, hey, guess what? The mother, in these instances, didn't take full control, and it worked out fine. They talked it out and came to the decision to abort. Both felt it, but it wasn't equal, but what was equal was the decision discussion.

Chobie, stop trying to pass opinions as fact, please!

The only fact here is that the woman has 100% of the pregnacy and childbirth.

 

[chobie]

Like I said, I can handle debating...but having my viewpoint outright debunked in the, "I'm right, you're wrong" manner....*eyes ignore function*

It's a very easy thing to put some one on ignore. Just takes a few seconds. Go for it.

 

[Ariel Mae]

The only fact here is that the woman has 100% of the pregnacy and childbirth.

Congratulations, that is true, but the pain, in my veiw does not subside just to the female! I believe the male can, and does, feel some pain, whether it be mental or physical because of stress or whatnot...that's my view. You disagree? FINE. So be it! But know that just because you say so does not equate it as truth. See, I'm not passing anything as 'truth' and 'fact'. I'm stating an opinion. That's the difference.

It's a very easy thing to put some one on ignore. Just takes a few seconds. Go for it.

I like to give chances, because I hate the ignore option.

 

[Luv'sTink]

*Turns it around* It's impossible to have a conversation on abortion if you refuse to acknowledge that the equation is an equal opportunity when both people feel the pain and are affected by the decision that you think should be made by one person.

So you disagree with it being equal. Fine. We accept that. But we, some of us, think it's about equality in opportunity/choice, the chance for something to be said/dealt with. Does that make us right? Does that make us wrong? To you, we may be wrong, but to us, you're in the wrong, but we're not going to outright say it, b/c we cannot prove it. Same for your side, Chobie, same for your side.



All right, we get it, you disagree with some of us. But does that make you right? No. Does that make us right? No. Really, there is no right and wrong, in this. Just because you think something does not automically make it right for everyone. "I think apples are delicious." Okay, yeah? What about Joe, who doesn't like apples? Is he going to get flamed, now, too?

I'm sorry, but I don't mind opinions, and I don't mind disagreements...as long as you're respectful and mature in them. "Okay, so you disagree. That's fine. To each their own." over "Why do you disagree? How dare you believe this!".

Chobie, you word your things so well, but what I'm not understanding is why you seem to put your opinion above all others. That's my issue. Why is it your opinion is acceptable, but the rest are debunkable? Just because you or anyone else says something does not automatically make it true/right for everyone who posts. "It is fact" implies just that: Fact. And with assertions of facts come sources. Please provide. "I think" implies opinion, no sources necessary, b/c it is not being asserted as truth.

Couldn't the same be said for you?

Both of you keep saying the same thing, mostly to each other. Your not going to change each others minds.

Until you have been in a situation you don't for 100% know what you will do, you think you do and you may not change your mind but you will never "really" know until it is your turn.

 

[Ariel Mae]

Couldn't the same be said for you?

Well, no, because I haven't said, "The fact is...". I've said, "I think...", and "My view is...", clearly signifying it as an opinion, not as a fact. And I've also never put my opinion above anyone else's. To do that, I would have had to debunk someone's, and I've yet to do that.

Both of you keep saying the same thing, mostly to each other. Your not going to change each others minds.

True enough.

Until you have been in a situation you don't for 100% know what you will do, you think you do and you may not change your mind but you will never "really" know until it is your turn.

'tis what I said about the 'tiebreaker' Chobie asked about. "You can never really be sure of the conclusion unless it's in your hands." I just don't think it should automatically be in the hands of the woman. Just my view, though.

 

[kristen821]

You are being disingenuous. You refuse to admit that the woman has more of the affects here. You want to make this equal and in some respects it is equal. The emotional effects -equal. The financial aspects of raising a child-equal. The medical/physical aspects-100% the woman.

I'm sorry, but if the father did not want the mother to have an abortion I think it will affect him more then the mother. Imagine wanting a baby and knowing your baby is on the way and then someone decides to kill it, wouldn't the mental pain be more unbearable then the physical pain that the mother goes through.

 

[LuvDuke]

But the woman has to depend on the male to wear the condom?

Do you have a problem with a man providing his own birth control if he doesn't want to be a father? What has that got to do with the woman?

Okay, then. Let's kick out the dad's in the hospital rooms during the...'scans' of the child, since he has no right to see the child. It's still in the woman's body, after all.

Feel free.

You're passing opinions as facts, there.

No, the fact is no man will ever have to make the decision of whether or not he should have an abortion. YMMV.

Well, with science, you never know what could happen!

Beam me up, Scotty.

"No man will ever have to make the decision of whether or not he should have an abortion."

Even in the case of his wife, in my view, it's not just her abortion. It's theirs.

No, he's not having the abortion and I don't how much discussion has gone into the decision.

But, see, the difference with that statement and yours is that I'm not pushing anything as fact. I'm stating it as opinion, because I know there's two sides.

No, the only thing I'm stating as fact is that no man will ever have to make the decision of whether or not he has an abortion. Now, if you've got evidence that statement is NOT fact, now would be a good time to present it.

 

[Ariel Mae]

I'm sorry, but if the father did not want the mother to have an abortion I think it will affect him more then the mother. Imagine wanting a baby and knowing your baby is on the way and then someone decides to kill it, wouldn't the mental pain be more unbearable then the physical pain that the mother goes through.

Nope. The mother is the only one who feels pain. The father feels nothing.

Well, at least according to what I've read, here.

 

[LuvDuke]

There is nothing to converse about. It's the woman's body.

Bingo!

Ladies and gentlemen, we got a winnah here!

 

[chobie]

Congratulations, that is true, but the pain, in my veiw does not subside just to the female! I believe the male can, and does, feel some pain, whether it be mental or physical because of stress or whatnot...that's my view. You disagree? FINE. So be it! But know that just because you say so does not equate it as truth. See, I'm not passing anything as 'truth' and 'fact'. I'm stating an opinion. That's the difference.



I like to give chances, because I hate the ignore option.

That's okay. I don't take it personally when someone puts me on ignore. I'm too curious to ever put anyone on ignore --I can't stand seeing they said something and not being able to read.

 

[Ariel Mae]

Do you have a problem with a man providing his own birth control if he doesn't want to be a father? What has that got to do with the woman?

I have a problem with it being in the hands of one or the other. I feel it should be about both being prepared. It has a lot to do with the mother, because I believe if you want to go without, it should be discussed between both the applicant and the employee.

No, the fact is no man will ever have to make the decision of whether or not he should have an abortion. YMMV.

No, that's still an opinion. It may not be his body's abortion, but that doesn't mean, in my view, it still isn't his abortion.

No, he's not having the abortion and I don't how much discussion has gone into the decision.

So, what. "Honey, I'm killing your creation." is fine??

No, the only thing I'm stating as fact is that no man will ever have to make the decision of whether or not he has an abortion. Now, if you've got evidence that statement is NOT fact, now would be a good time to present it.

It's not on me to provide the proof. What's being asserted is that the male is never going to have to decide whether he has an abortion. No one said anything about it being an abortion in his body.

 

[LuvDuke]

I think there needs to be a clear distinction;

You can be anti-abortion AND pro-choice.

You can be in favour of abortion being discouraged, counselling offered etc. and still allow women to make that choice. Many people here are that - even those who have no religious reason to back up their anti-abortion choice. Many believe that abortion is wrong but also do not believe that their opinion on this is so important that it should override the opinion of others.

And THAT is the mainstream position and the postion of most pro-choice people I've come in contact with over the last 35 years or so.

 

[Ariel Mae]

That's okay. I don't take it personally when someone puts me on ignore. I'm too curious to ever put anyone on ignore --I can't stand seeing they said something and not being able to read.

But I don't want to put you on ignore, that's the issue, here.

Bingo!

Ladies and gentlemen, we got a winnah here!

So, what, those of us who disagree are just, what, invisible, now? It's a one way street, is it? "The woman's body" is the only acceptable answer?

 

[LuvDuke]

Just so we're clear, I'm not talking about the man "winning" or putting the woman's life in jeopardy. What I have been saying that there needs to be a way for both people to discuss the issue and both peopls's viws need to carry some weight.

Let's make it even clearer. After all the discussion and soul searching, the one having the abortion makes the final decision ......... the woman.

 

[Ariel Mae]

Let's make it even clearer. After all the discussion and soul searching, the one having the abortion makes the final decision ......... the woman.

Can you prove this?

What if the father were to make the final decision?

I've seen it happen, and, hey, guess what? The mom sat down, they talked it out some more, and they came to an agreement, and that agreement was based on the father's words.

Personally, I feel as if this has become a one way street. Only one side is acceptable to speak. The rest of us? We're heathens. Ignore us, throw tomatoes at us. Why not, it's already being done. Do have fun debating amongst each other...if a one way street can do that. Toodles.

 

[chobie]

I'm sorry, but if the father did not want the mother to have an abortion I think it will affect him more then the mother. Imagine wanting a baby and knowing your baby is on the way and then someone decides to kill it, wouldn't the mental pain be more unbearable then the physical pain that the mother goes through.

The issue here is equal say which would also mean equal say in demanding the woman having an abortion. Imagine the pain of the man who did not want to support a child who could not force the woman to abort. Still feel just as much compassion for him?

And no. I don't thing the mental pain of an abortion for the man would outweigh the physical pain of childbirth combined with the mental pain of being forced to carry a pregnancy to term.

And what about rapists? Should they have a say in the child they fathered?

 

[JennyMominRI]

You know Ariel..I aborted a baby we both badly wanted at 9 weeks...Ed went with me. He felt pain ,but I guarantee you right now that if you ask he would tell you that I felt far more pain, both physically and mentallly, than he did while *killing our Baby*.. I'm sorry but it's just not equal

 

[LuvDuke]

Oooh, oooh, do we get extra credit if we do? Does our vote actually count for something if we adopt?

Yes, and it's called putting your money where your mouth is.

 

[chobie]

Can you prove this?

What if the father were to make the final decision?

I've seen it happen, and, hey, guess what? The mom sat down, they talked it out some more, and they came to an agreement, and that agreement was based on the father's words.

Personally, I feel as if this has become a one way street. Only one side is acceptable to speak. The rest of us? We're heathens. Ignore us, throw tomatoes at us. Why not, it's already being done. Do have fun debating amongst each other...if a one way street can do that. Toodles.

But in the end, when her feet are in stirrups and the doctor is coming at her with the speculum, she has the final say as to whether to go through it.

 

[Ariel Mae]

And what about rapists? Should they have a say in the child they fathered?

Okay, now you're just stretching things. I believe what was said was, "If applicapble, the creators should both have a say."

But, as I said, one way street, debate amongst yourselves.