Pride month at Disney...

[jalapeno_pretzel]

Yes I know that. My question is why is trans used in front of non-binary? And can cis also be used in front of non-binary?

Does birth certificate say non-binary? If so, and they identify as non-binary, they would be cis. So there could in fact be cis non-binary. But, I have never heard of a birth certificate indicating non-binary. Maybe it is done now? I don't know. So in general, if someone is non-binary, it isn't going to match their birth certificate, meaning they are trans.

 

[Moliphino]

When you point that finger at White Cat there are three fingers pointing back at you.

What finger?

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

Does birth certificate say non-binary? If so, and they identify as non-binary, they would be cis. So there could in fact be cis non-binary. But, I have never heard of a birth certificate indicating non-binary. Maybe it is done now? I don't know. So in general, if someone is non-binary, it isn't going to match their birth certificate, meaning they are trans.

Okay I think I got it. So the trans and cis prefixes are directly tied to birth certificates. Whether or not a person chooses to use either prefix would depend on what their gender was observed to be at the time of their birth and consequently indicated on their birth certificate.

So this leads me to a hypothetical question. If, from this point forward, birth certificates ceased to indicate the gender/sex of the baby, would the cis/trans prefixes eventually also cease to exist? Because I’m thinking there would no longer be a word on a piece of paper from when a person is born for that person to, at some point later in life, be the same as, or opposite of.

 

[dvcgirl67]

....meant to quote poster below.

 

[dvcgirl67]

The mods take time before going poof. A thread of mine recently got deleted, and that was 5 days after I posted it and it was already on page 2.

The thread itself was pleasant but I used some words that are not allowed. Therefore: Poof!

This thread has more bickering and more agressive discussions than a Harry & Meghan thread.

I was surprised to see that thread go poof. I feel like our lack of tolerance for H&M is the one thing almost all of us seem to get behind. I've seen posters on those threads that I know I likely vehemently disagree with on all things on probably every other topic....but on H&M, I'm with them...lol!! From across all divides we all seem to agree that they need to take a really long break and leave us alone

 

[JLTraveling]

Okay I think I got it. So the trans and cis prefixes are directly tied to birth certificates. Whether or not a person chooses to use either prefix would depend on what their gender was observed to be at the time of their birth and consequently indicated on their birth certificate.

So this leads me to a hypothetical question. If, from this point forward, birth certificates ceased to indicate the gender/sex of the baby, would the cis/trans prefixes eventually also cease to exist? Because I’m thinking there would no longer be a word on a piece of paper from when a person is born for that person to, at some point later in life, to be the same as, or opposite of.

I'm not the poster you were replying to, but I think you raise some incredibly interesting questions. I would personally use a slightly different definition for trans/cis, based on original plumbing rather than birth certificate. But, I think your point about birth certificates is a very good one. Right now, we're categorizing gender from well before babies are even born. Huge gender reveal parties. Shower gifts based on whether it's a girl or a boy. Birth certificate labels. And way too often, nursery colors and baby clothes and toys based on biological sex.

Not only does that set up trans kids to feel "other" from an incredibly early age, but it's not doing a lot of good even for a lot of cis gender people. I'm a straight cis female, but I have always hated pink, dresses, and most of the other traditional gender markers. My ex was a straight cis male who thought dresses were more comfortable and couldn't change a light bulb to save his life.

Maybe you're onto something. Maybe the key is to stop labeling kids and defining what they "should" be altogether. And perhaps birth certificates would be a good place to start.

 

[DCLMP]

Being tolerant and respectful includes using a person’s chosen pronouns and respecting their expressions of self, even pride. That’s just basic human kindness.

Sorry I don’t go aground asking people what their pronouns are and I never will.

 

[DisneylandFreak2013]

Okay I think I got it. So the trans and cis prefixes are directly tied to birth certificates. Whether or not a person chooses to use either prefix would depend on what their gender was observed to be at the time of their birth and consequently indicated on their birth certificate.

So this leads me to a hypothetical question. If, from this point forward, birth certificates ceased to indicate the gender/sex of the baby, would the cis/trans prefixes eventually also cease to exist? Because I’m thinking there would no longer be a word on a piece of paper from when a person is born for that person to, at some point later in life, to be the same as, or opposite of.

I think there will always be a need to differentiate between those who are actual/born female and those that transition to female after birth (same with males). Medical necessity and record keeping are important. There are some illness that impact only those who are born female or male. Transitioning does not remove your sex at a cellular level, XX/XY chromosomes and all of that. People may not agree, and it might not be the most sensitive to feelings, but keeping objective records is important.

Same thing with driver's licenses. Some states allow for X as the gender. I think it would be going too far to now take that to birth certificates, when the need to transition only impacts around 8% of the population. In this hypothetical scenario, we may be forcing 92% of infants to be genderless unnecessarily. What if they later want to be who they were born to be? What a mess for vital records. None of this is directed at you, Party of 4, just random thoughts I have while thinking about the possibility of that.

I'm also really into genealogy and record keeping. I'm curious on how some family trees will look when Mr. Miller becomes Ms. Miller, etc. Adds to the complexity of what can already be a complex family history search!

 

[DCLMP]

When people's 'opinions' are old-fashioned, they can learn and change. When people's 'opinions' are bigoted, they can also learn and change-if they want to. @Ms.Minnie you obviously are entrenched in your 'opinions,' so I won't engage with your posts any longer. Every accusation is a confession, remember that.

Maybe you to need except the fact that some people like their conservative, traditional values and don’t want to change.
Tolerance and respect is a two way street. It’s your side that always screams the loudest and sounds the most hateful.

 

[DisneylandFreak2013]

Maybe you to need except the fact that some people like their conservative, traditional values and don’t want to change.
Tolerance and respect is a two way street. It’s your side that always screams the loudest and sounds the most hateful.

That is one of the things I really dislike about our country right now. Some people scream and scream about having tolerance, but then when called to do the same for values opposite of theirs they call you stupid or bigoted or wrong. There is a middle ground.

I don't need to put pronouns in my email signature to make a potential person of transition I guess feel more comfortable conversing with me, but I'm also not going to intentionally call someone a "he" when he asked to be called a "she". I don't agree with the concept, but I'll show respect and call you whatever you want to be called if you express that to me. I also don't need to feel comfortable or accept sharing a locker room with a born male person. I don't need to shrink my need for space or safety to make others (8% of our population) feel more comfortable. But I also don't expect someone who is transitioning to female to use the men's locker room...but they need to use a separate single stall locker room. Just my two bigoted cents.

 

[BlueStarryHat]

Maybe you to need except the fact that some people like their conservative, traditional values and don’t want to change.
Tolerance and respect is a two way street. It’s your side that always screams the loudest and sounds the most hateful.

Conservative and Traditional? Please explain what these values are. I'm very interested to hear them. Please also explain why they are traditional and conservative.

Can you explain your values and why they deserve tolerance and respect? I'm willing to hear.

 

[DCLMP]

Conservative and Traditional? Please explain what these values are. I'm very interested to hear them. Please also explain why they are traditional and conservative.

Can you explain your values and why they deserve tolerance and respect? I'm willing to hear.

You post just confirms everything wrong with the world these days.

 

[DisneylandFreak2013]

Conservative and Traditional? Please explain what these values are. I'm very interested to hear them. Please also explain why they are traditional and conservative.

Can you explain your values and why they deserve tolerance and respect? I'm willing to hear.

My values deserve tolerance because they are my values. Just like your values deserve tolerance because they are your values.

Not who you were responding to but...
Conservative/Traditional:
-believing in pro-life (not hindering access to abortions, but providing alternatives....increased access to BC, support for those in crisis, funding for foster care and adoptions)
-having religious beliefs (specifically Christian)
-believing that marriage is between man/woman (but not hindering those that choose to engage in a same-sex marriage/union, respecting their ability and choice of spouse, free will and all of that)
-believe that transitioning should only be done for those 18+...no hormone replacement, no puberty blockers for underage
-women's sports are for xx women

 

[BlueStarryHat]

You post just confirms everything wrong with the world these days.

So you can't explain what your traditional and conservative values are, then. Why is that? I'm genuinely asking. If you're proud of these traditional values and believe that they're moral and right, then you should be able to state what they are. Instead you post a sentence that implies I'm part of what makes everything wrong with the world.

 

[Babs Johnson]

My husband also experienced discrimination in the 70s, strike 1- he was white, strike 2- he was male, strike 3- he was a VietNam vet.

1- The Civil rights movement made it very hard for him, he was the wrong color. Like it or not that is the fact.
2- Women's movement made it very hard, he was male.
3- VietNam vets were considered to be drug addicts whether they were or not.

Riiiiight. Such a victim. Most likely he just wasn’t qualified.

 

[BlueStarryHat]

My values deserve tolerance because they are my values. Just like your values deserve tolerance because they are your values.

Not who you were responding to but...
Conservative/Traditional:
-believing in pro-life (not hindering access to abortions, but providing alternatives....increased access to BC, support for those in crisis, funding for foster care and adoptions)
-having religious beliefs (specifically Christian)
-believing that marriage is between man/woman (but not hindering those that choose to engage in a same-sex marriage/union, respecting their ability and choice of spouse, free will and all of that)
-believe that transitioning should only be done for those 18+...no hormone replacement, no puberty blockers
-women's sports are for xx women

Sounds reasonable to me that you would call these values. You don't sound like you would actively try to hinder the or defame the values of someone who doesn't agree with your views. I can respect that, even if I don't agree.

 

[DCLMP]

So you can't explain what your traditional and conservative values are, then. Why is that? I'm genuinely asking. If you're proud of these traditional values and believe that they're moral and right, then you should be able to state what they are. Instead you post a sentence that implies I'm part of what makes everything wrong with the world.

Pro life. Same sex marriage, Christian, small government. I’m also a libertarian so I don’t really care what other people do just don’t expect me to adopt your values. I’m also Anti-war would love it if we stayed out everyone’s business.

 

[BlueStarryHat]

Pro life. Same sex marriage, Christian, small government. I’m also a libertarian so I don’t really care what other people do just don’t expect me to adopt your values. I’m also Anti-war would love it if we stayed out everyone’s business.

I'm also a Christian, btw. By this point in the thread I don't expect anyone to change their values or their minds. Just wanted to know what values informed their opinions.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I wondered that too......strike one is that he's a male? Strike two that he's white?

But hoooo.....boy, you've really got to be stretch to be walking around this planet as an American heterosexual-white male.....and feel sorry for yourself! I mean, it's legit laugh out loud funny to me. The only thing funnier is when the mothers of these gentlemen complain on their behalf.

Any cis male heterosexual in America with an IQ hovering right around 100 is going to be just fine.

Correct on the strikes.
Incorrect on feeling sorry for myself.
BTW, my mother died 20 years ago.
We could be just fine, but perhaps did not get the preferred position when competing against non white males.

I assume you can never understand seeing as though you are not a white male.

 

[DCLMP]

Riiiiight. Such a victim. Most likely he just wasn’t qualified.

There was a lot of discrimination against Vietnam vets. It was very divisive time in our country. I was not alive then, but I have read a few history books.