Pregnant High School Senior Denied Attendance At Graduation Ceremony

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I grew up in a small town. I don't remember an official dress code at all. Basically, parents set the dress code by what they would allow their kids to wear. For us, it was more about the brand you wore than the actual style. From what I can tell, things haven't changed. Obviously, you grew up in a different environment than I did.

Yeah no small town for me. Different areas get different experiences for sure. It's been interesting though to hear others though (eta: including your experiences).

 

[mummabear]

The argument against nose rings was that they don't look professional and detract from the educational environment (but interestingly, it was never explicitly against the dress code until all of the senior girls got one, primarily to figuratively give the finger to our new principal.)

Long hair for guys is more dubious but hey, girls couldn't dye their hair "unnatural" colors so I wasn't about to protest on behalf of my male classmates.

Honestly, it bugged me in middle and high school but now I think they had a point. I've had very few jobs that allow stuff like that. Most of my jobs have actually had stricter dress codes than my high school. And school is pretty much supposed to prepare you for adult life so there is that...

Yes school should prepare people for life but that doesn't mean it needs to mimic adulthood. Sure in a professional environment purple hair and piercings aren't allowed but school isn't actually a professional environment.
There is nothing about having purple hair that effects a persons ability to learn.

Eh coming from the opposite side (other than gym class) dress codes are more or less about ensuring you were wearing the least offensive type of clothing.

Skirts being at a certain length or clothing revealing too much skin, pants that sagged and showed your undergarments, inappropriate words or suggestive words things like that, etc.

For me I would have personally hated wearing uniforms. They totally worked for you and hey all props but it wouldn't have alleviated daily pre-school stress for me as I didn't have any to begin with, nor did we have bullying issues regarding clothes (sure certain kids wore certain types of clothes but you weren't looked down upon if you got your clothes at X place vs Y place).

When my mom worked at JCP she heard all the complaints from parents who had to buy the uniforms for their kids a lot centered on cost and availability of places that had the specific type of uniforms the school wanted. Plus the parents complained about the amount of laundry they had to do or that they had to buy a certain amount of uniforms so as to keep the laundry amount down but then there was the whole "kids grow out of clothes" situation.

My kids are in uniform at our public school, I hate it for those same reasons. I don't believe it saves me any hassles in the morning nor does it stop bullying. Kids will make fun of people for all sorts of reasons and we need to deal with teaching them it is unacceptable not just try to avoid it in a couple of areas.

Yep. I dressed too much like a boy and got made fun of all the time. I wasn't "girly" enough. So my t-shirts and blue jeans were often a thing for ridicule.

And kids still would have found something to ridicule you about with a uniform, your shoes, your haircut your school bag, what you did on the weekend or summer break etc

 

[Magpie]

I think what you describe is a great way of teaching.

But I'm not so certain this is a public vs private school situation. It would be unfair to paint the picture that public school is full of bullies and students just hope everyday they aren't the target of said bullies and people don't stick up for others. I'm certain there are bad apples of public and private schools out there.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that at all!

Both my children attended public schools. And I've never been more impressed with the leadership I saw there.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that at all!

Both my children attended public schools. And I've never been more impressed with the leadership I saw there.

Apologies for taking it down that route then!

 

[Magpie]

And kids still would have found something to ridicule you about with a uniform, your shoes, your haircut your school bag, what you did on the weekend or summer break etc

While I'm sure you don't quite mean it this way, you've touched on something that I find very frustrating.

A lot of people talk about bullying as if it's inevitable. As if there's nothing we can do to combat it.

"Kids are cruel." "They'll always find something to pick on."

In one sense, I do agree that bullying can't be combated through facile surface changes. I'm not just talking about instituting a uniform code and expecting that alone to solve your bullying problems. I'm also talking about all the people who looked at my daughter with her birthmark, and wondered why I wasn't moving heaven and earth to get her face "fixed" before she started school. (There were medical reasons to delay, but that's beside the point.) They'd tell me that she was going to be bullied for looking different, and I'd say, "Do you think making her look like the other kids is going to make a darn bit of difference? I'd rather teach her that she doesn't need 'fixing', and she's terrific just the way she is."

So, from that side, I can definitely see that argument applying to uniforms. Making all the kids look like each other won't make nearly as much difference as teaching them that they should embrace their diversity and accept each other as the unique, valuable individuals that they are.

But, having gone to a school with uniforms, and having worn a military uniform, I think there's still something valuable about uniforms. Not as an answer to bullying (goodness knows, I saw a LOT of bullying in the military!), but for other reasons...

1. Promoting a sense of community and belonging in your school. Pride, in being part of this school.

2. Instilling in the children a sense that even when they are off school property, they are still representing their school. Everything they do, even when the teacher can't see, reflects on their school and everyone in it.

3. Strengthening that sense of being part of a larger group. Sometimes, it's true, we felt our individual expression was being squashed. But, we always found ways around the rules. So... perhaps we can add encouraging creativity in personal expression?

4. Convenience. It was SO easy to get dressed in the morning!

5. Financial savings. My mum never bought me anything "designer", because my uniform and a couple pairs of jeans and tees for the weekend were more than ample to outfit me for the year.

6. It looks darn cute.

I'd never argue that having a uniform makes a school better. I'd never argue that it will prevent bullying or raise students' academic scores. And schools can obviously get by perfectly well without uniforms (as my children's schools proved). And not only that, but in a world where boys and girls are increasingly choosing to experiment with gender expression, it's arguably advantageous not to have them stuffed into strictly gender-specific uniforms (though you can always solve that by having unisex uniforms - trousers and polos, for example).

But, even with all that, I still like uniforms.

 

[luvsJack]

DD started having to wear uniforms (khakis and polo) in 3rd grade. I was against it at first but the older she got the more I liked the idea. No arguing about what is and isn't appropriate for school. No decisions to be made when out shopping. Find the best sale. Buy 3 polos in each color and 5 pairs of khakis. Done.

When my sons were in high school, there were a lot of girls (and it was almost always girls) that really pushed the limit on what they wore to school. I didn't have to worry about any of that.

I also think that its good from the school security pov. Campus police can tell at a glance if there is anyone in the crowd that doesn't belong. Even on days that some were allowed to wear jeans, they had to wear a school shirt (either a polo or a spirit shirt).

The kids can still tell which shirts come from Walmart and which ones come from whatever the "cool" store is this year so I don't think it ever stopped the separation of the kids who "have" and the ones who "have not" but at least it wasn't blatant like it would be in regular clothes.

 

[bcla]

I'd never argue that having a uniform makes a school better. I'd never argue that it will prevent bullying or raise students' academic scores. And schools can obviously get by perfectly well without uniforms (as my children's schools proved). And not only that, but in a world where boys and girls are increasingly choosing to experiment with gender expression, it's arguably advantageous not to have them stuffed into strictly gender-specific uniforms (though you can always solve that by having unisex uniforms - trousers and polos, for example).

Well - my HS didn't have uniforms, but there was one classmate who seemed rather androgynous, but I later figured out was a girl. Might not have been as much of a mystery with sex-based uniforms.

I figured it out when she announced she was going to [edit] Bryn Mawr and at graduation where boys wore one school color and girls the other.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Well - my HS didn't have uniforms, but there was one classmate who seemed rather androgynous, but I later figured out was a girl. Might not have been as much of a mystery with sex-based uniforms.

I figured it out when she announced she was going to Byrn Mayr and at graduation where boys wore one school color and girls the other.

Although nowadays at least at a public school system I'm not sure how they would handle the situation if a student didn't want to be forced into uniforms based on sex due to their own personal feelings-but that could be it own topic really.

 

[Magpie]

Well - my HS didn't have uniforms, but there was one classmate who seemed rather androgynous, but I later figured out was a girl. Might not have been as much of a mystery with sex-based uniforms.

I figured it out when she announced she was going to Byrn Mayr and at graduation where boys wore one school color and girls the other.

My daughter would argue that it shouldn't matter to us what a person's gender is - that it's entirely up to them how much or how little or in what way they choose to express it. And that we should be seeing them as human beings, first.

I think she's right, from an ethical standpoint. But I still can't seem to stop trying to pigeonhole everyone I meet. And wondering, when someone doesn't easily fit one category or the other.

I sometimes suspect it might date back to when I was a wee small child, and my mum would take me down to the protest marches in front of City Hall in the early 70's. I'd enthusiastically embraced the idea that boys could dress like girls and girls could dress like boys, and my favourite game at these parades was trying to label everyone I saw as, "Boy!" or "Girl!" (There were a lot of very flamboyant drag queens in attendance every weekend, which made the game especially fun for me.)

In any case, my daughter is a better person than I will ever be. For many reasons, not just this one.

 

[mummabear]

While I'm sure you don't quite mean it this way, you've touched on something that I find very frustrating.

A lot of people talk about bullying as if it's inevitable. As if there's nothing we can do to combat it.

"Kids are cruel." "They'll always find something to pick on."

In one sense, I do agree that bullying can't be combated through facile surface changes. I'm not just talking about instituting a uniform code and expecting that alone to solve your bullying problems. I'm also talking about all the people who looked at my daughter with her birthmark, and wondered why I wasn't moving heaven and earth to get her face "fixed" before she started school. (There were medical reasons to delay, but that's beside the point.) They'd tell me that she was going to be bullied for looking different, and I'd say, "Do you think making her look like the other kids is going to make a darn bit of difference? I'd rather teach her that she doesn't need 'fixing', and she's terrific just the way she is."

So, from that side, I can definitely see that argument applying to uniforms. Making all the kids look like each other won't make nearly as much difference as teaching them that they should embrace their diversity and accept each other as the unique, valuable individuals that they are.

But, having gone to a school with uniforms, and having worn a military uniform, I think there's still something valuable about uniforms. Not as an answer to bullying (goodness knows, I saw a LOT of bullying in the military!), but for other reasons...

1. Promoting a sense of community and belonging in your school. Pride, in being part of this school.

2. Instilling in the children a sense that even when they are off school property, they are still representing their school. Everything they do, even when the teacher can't see, reflects on their school and everyone in it.

3. Strengthening that sense of being part of a larger group. Sometimes, it's true, we felt our individual expression was being squashed. But, we always found ways around the rules. So... perhaps we can add encouraging creativity in personal expression?

4. Convenience. It was SO easy to get dressed in the morning!

5. Financial savings. My mum never bought me anything "designer", because my uniform and a couple pairs of jeans and tees for the weekend were more than ample to outfit me for the year.

6. It looks darn cute.

I'd never argue that having a uniform makes a school better. I'd never argue that it will prevent bullying or raise students' academic scores. And schools can obviously get by perfectly well without uniforms (as my children's schools proved). And not only that, but in a world where boys and girls are increasingly choosing to experiment with gender expression, it's arguably advantageous not to have them stuffed into strictly gender-specific uniforms (though you can always solve that by having unisex uniforms - trousers and polos, for example).

But, even with all that, I still like uniforms.

Those are your feelings on uniforms, they aren't everyone's, I certainly don't think they are cute, convienent or save any money and the second my kids step out the school gate what they do is none of the kids business it's mine as a parent, they aren't representing their school they are representing themselves.

 

[Magpie]

Those are your feelings on uniforms, they aren't everyone's, I certainly don't think they are cute, convienent or save any money and the second my kids step out the school gate what they do is none of the kids business it's mine as a parent, they aren't representing their school they are representing themselves.

I don't think I said they were everyone's feelings on uniforms.

My apologies if you read it that way.

Also, if you don't want your children representing their school, they should remove their uniforms the moment they step out of the school gate (or ideally, before). It's the same as any other uniform, from police officer to soldier to McDonald's employee. If they act in a way that brings attention to themselves, while in uniform, then it reflect not only on them but on the organization whose colours they wear. If the attention they attract is good, then the organization will be proud to claim them. But if it's not, then there may be consequences levied that reflect that.

When I was a Reservist, I could not wear my uniform into any establishment that served alcohol, even if I was off duty. If I had, I would have been severely disciplined. Why? Because while in uniform I was representing the armed forces, and that's not something to take lightly.

 

[Hikergirl]

Those are your feelings on uniforms, they aren't everyone's, I certainly don't think they are cute, convienent or save any money and the second my kids step out the school gate what they do is none of the kids business it's mine as a parent, they aren't representing their school they are representing themselves.

Do you have kids in school?

 

[Westcoastwild]

I don't think I said they were everyone's feelings on uniforms.

My apologies if you read it that way.

Also, if you don't want your children representing their school, they should remove their uniforms the moment they step out of the school gate (or ideally, before). It's the same as any other uniform, from police officer to soldier to McDonald's employee. If they act in a way that brings attention to themselves, while in uniform, then it reflect not only on them but on the organization whose colours they wear. If the attention they attract is good, then the organization will be proud to claim them. But if it's not, then there may be consequences levied that reflect that.

When I was a Reservist, I could not wear my uniform into any establishment that served alcohol, even if I was off duty. If I had, I would have been severely disciplined. Why? Because while in uniform I was representing the armed forces, and that's not something to take lightly.

RIGHT. Absolutely. That's what I was thinking of. Like it or not, school IS preparing students for the real world. Fair or not, your behavior in your off time is not considered separate from your time at work. At least not for professions like teacher or police officer or military.

It's difficult to argue that dress in 1st grade is reflects on a school. But when we are talking about high schoolers, we are talking about people who are either already in the work force or will very soon be. And if you want to see it from another perspective, mummabear- I don't know how old your kids are but eventually they will be juniors and seniors. They'll be asking for letters of recommendation from their teachers. Kids might not get it, but teachers are not just looking at grades. They're also looking at professionalism. A kid who has dreads and wears baggy jeans or sweats to class everyday is NOT going to get the same reference as a kid who is clean cut, well dressed even if their GPAs are identical. Maybe that's not fair. But it's reality.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I certaintly understand where you are coming from and I even agree with some of your thoughts; especially teaching kids about bullying. That being said though the following things don't seem to be related just to uniforms. In other words uniforms are not a causation to below:

1. Promoting a sense of community and belonging in your school. Pride, in being part of this school.

You can without a doubt have pride and a sense of community without uniforms.

Schools have mascots and school colors..those serve that same purpose as well.

Not only that but things schools do such as being known for community service or community outreach for example can def. instill a sense of community and pride. Being known as a diverse school welcoming to people from all different races and backgrounds can also instill in you a sense of pride. Also what your school is known for as far as activities (band, drama, sports, etc).

2. Instilling in the children a sense that even when they are off school property, they are still representing their school. Everything they do, even when the teacher can't see, reflects on their school and everyone in it.

That really goes for anyone attending school period..whether in elementary/middle/high and college. Not only that but if you wear attire that has your school mascot or school colors you are even more visible than if something were to happen and it was known you went to X school. You can apply that to real world. Actions follow you at a professional level as well (i.e. why people can get in trouble for FB posts, etc).

3. Strengthening that sense of being part of a larger group. Sometimes, it's true, we felt our individual expression was being squashed. But, we always found ways around the rules. So... perhaps we can add encouraging creativity in personal expression?

Again you can have that without uniforms.

As far as the encouraging creativity in personal expression I'm wondering if that wouldn't lead to what bcla mentioned regarding jackets that were worn and how if they weren't bought at full price...you wouldn't be able to guarantee that kids wouldn't go for what a student did to make them express themselves and make fun of it if they concentrated on those types of things.

4. Convenience. It was SO easy to get dressed in the morning!

Well I'll give you that you experienced as well as others for sure but it isn't the case for all who have experienced uniforms. I don't think you were meaning that as a blanket statement though.

5. Financial savings. My mum never bought me anything "designer", because my uniform and a couple pairs of jeans and tees for the weekend were more than ample to outfit me for the year.

Well that's a big subjective I would think. It all depends on how much uniforms costs and what parents would have reasonably spent on clothing over the course of the year. Now granted you may come out ahead but still it's subjective.

I didn't need nor want expensive designer clothes. In fact shopping with me was always a hassle (and admittedly still is lol) because I was so concentrated on the cost of the item and didn't want to spend a whole lot. I believe the most I have ever had spent on me in all the years of buying for me or what I have bought on jeans for example is around $25-$27. Nowadays I aim for sales that will get me the jeans I want for around $15-20.

So on that I would say it all depends on the person and I would also thing specific area as in do you have peer pressure extreme to buy all the expensive designer clothes.

6. It looks darn cute.

lol Well I will say there are some uniforms that do look real cute but normal clothes can look cute too

_______
I think at the end of the day uniforms can be utilized to perform the functions you listed but so can other things.

 

[bcla]

I dunno about some of the stuff said here about private schools. I remember a few years back one of the private schools in San Francisco had to deal with an issue regarding some of its graduates. It had something to do with a fight that broke out between members of a Yale singing group at a private party and one of their alums crashing said party and insulting the members of the singing group. That alum literally said something about calling up his homies from that school and said "I'm 20 deep". It was almost like a movie, where a group of his buddies showed up in a van within 5 minutes and started beating up people. There was some controversy because the police apparently knew who the attackers were and didn't arrest them. Some claimed it was because their parents were well connected. I also remember hearing that one of the attackers was heading off to join the US Army, which seemed a bit odd for someone at a school well known for sending kids to college.

 

[mummabear]

Do you have kids in school?

Yes 2 of my 3 kids are in school-a public school with a uniform as is sadly standard here

 

[Westcoastwild]

I dunno about some of the stuff said here about private schools. I remember a few years back one of the private schools in San Francisco had to deal with an issue regarding some of its graduates. It had something to do with a fight that broke out between members of a Yale singing group at a private party and one of their alums crashing said party and insulting the members of the singing group. That alum literally said something about calling up his homies from that school and said "I'm 20 deep". It was almost like a movie, where a group of his buddies showed up in a van within 5 minutes and started beating up people. There was some controversy because the police apparently knew who the attackers were and didn't arrest them. Some claimed it was because their parents were well connected. I also remember hearing that one of the attackers was heading off to join the US Army, which seemed a bit odd for someone at a school well known for sending kids to college.

Not necessarily a reflection of the school itself, though. The class above me was constantly being disciplined for something. I mean people being suspended for major dress code violations, wild parties, bullying subs. We were very rarely disciplined (as a class) for anything like that. The two class cultures were very different- a lot more personality clashes and very different types of leadership in the other class.

Military is not odd at all. Cousin of mine went to a rural high school and to Harvard on an ROTC scholarship because it was the only way he could get into Harvard. 3 of my classmates went into the military for the same reason. One classmate went into the military because he was 4th generation Navy or something like that. I'd argue that many West Point applicants are from private schools- education translates into rank, rank translates into pay.

 

[bcla]

Yes 2 of my 3 kids are in school-a public school with a uniform as is sadly standard here

So what's a "public school" in your area? I say that because I've heard the term "public school" in the UK actually means traditional, stuffy private institutions like Eton.

 

[bcla]

Not necessarily a reflection of the school itself, though. The class above me was constantly being disciplined for something. I mean people being suspended for major dress code violations, wild parties, bullying subs. We were very rarely disciplined (as a class) for anything like that. The two class cultures were very different- a lot more personality clashes and very different types of leadership in the other class.

Military is not odd at all. Cousin of mine went to a rural high school and to Harvard on an ROTC scholarship because it was the only way he could get into Harvard. 3 of my classmates went into the military for the same reason. One classmate went into the military because he was 4th generation Navy or something like that. I'd argue that many West Point applicants are from private schools- education translates into rank, rank translates into pay.

There's a bit of a difference between someone going to college paid for by the military and someone directly enlisting. A few of my classmates directly enlisted, even though they could easily have attended college immediately. I think for some it was an adventure, while others were hoping to get some GI Bill money. I also remember one classmate who said that she wanted to go to a community college for two years, enter the military as an officer, then use the money to finish a four year degree. However, I think that's becoming less of an option now since there's no shortage of four-year college graduates wanting to become officers.

As an undergraduate there was a classmate of mine in the Air Force ROTC. He had to attend class in his ROTC uniform. However, a year later he was still in class but no longer in uniform. I asked and he said he quit. I think he had to pay them back, but it was pretty much in-state tuition and not terribly expensive at the time.

In grad school one of my classmates was actually a Duke grad serving in the Air Force. I think he was ROTC at Duke. He also had to wear his uniform to class. Later on I was in another class with him and he had no uniform on. He said that he was paying for the class himself, so he wasn't going to wear his uniform if he didn't have to.

 

[Westcoastwild]

There's a bit of a difference between someone going to college paid for by the military and someone directly enlisting. A few of my classmates directly enlisted, even though they could easily have attended college immediately. I think for some it was an adventure, while others were hoping to get some GI Bill money. I also remember one classmate who said that she wanted to go to a community college for two years, enter the military as an officer, then use the money to finish a four year degree. However, I think that's becoming less of an option now since there's no shortage of four-year college graduates wanting to become officers.

As an undergraduate there was a classmate of mine in the Air Force ROTC. He had to attend class in his ROTC uniform. However, a year later he was still in class but no longer in uniform. I asked and he said he quit. I think he had to pay them back, but it was pretty much in-state tuition and not terribly expensive at the time.

In grad school one of my classmates was actually a Duke grad serving in the Air Force. I think he was ROTC at Duke. He also had to wear his uniform to class. Later on I was in another class with him and he had no uniform on. He said that he was paying for the class himself, so he wasn't going to wear his uniform if he didn't have to.

I get your point, but the people who do take that scholarship do so knowing there are strings attached. Both the scholarship kid and the enlistee want to serve in the military (usually). I know people who did it for the money and they didn't last, like the guy you knew who dropped and paid the money back.

My father was rotc, ended up with a scholarship, but would have enlisted nevertheless and then gone to college. He had every intention of being a lifer. Just didn't work out and he ended up in the reserves due to budget cuts and personal choices.